A shocking question...

[cometcyclonemk]

If you're referencing the price I mentioned above, I should say that was using the table I posted earlier.

Looking at one of the Doetsch websites now, it appears a 2.0 rebuildable, external reservoir runs $182/ea, or $364/pair.

Also looking forward to hearing more about what they make!

 

[rockclimber]

Well Kinda Cal. New Redflos for Blaine I think were spec'd well and I think as short (compressed) as any others out there, if not shorter for the same travel.

And king also can build a short overall shock, you just have to get welded eyes on both end, so in the front of a XJ it doesnt work as well as a stem top mount for overall compressed.

you mean the Radflos that don't really exist yet?

 

[RWKHausSupply]

you mean the Radflos that don't really exist yet?

Thats odd. They are installed on a Jeep already, and being tested....

 

[rockclimber]

Thats odd. They are installed on a Jeep already, and being tested....

there's 1 set, maybe a few more

and they will absolutely be changed before they get to the public.

the whole point of making that shock was for their new "midarm" suspension, which is not yet for sale.
AFAIK the only hold up on that kit is now the shocks. once they are being produced in sufficient quantity they'll start selling the kits. I hope they'll sell the shocks separately.

until then, for the purposes of our discussions they don't really exist.

 

[RWKHausSupply]

there's 1 set, maybe a few more

and they will absolutely be changed before they get to the public.

the whole point of making that shock was for their new "midarm" suspension, which is not yet for sale.
AFAIK the only hold up on that kit is now the shocks. once they are being produced in sufficient quantity they'll start selling the kits. I hope they'll sell the shocks separately.

until then, for the purposes of our discussions they don't really exist.

a mass produced part number kit, correct is not released yet. but there are a handful of jeeps w the kit on it. including my assistants, and one re regeared last week. He is starting on another install this week i believe.

the shocks are not the only "thing" keeping the kit off the shelf.

but if someone was to wait about 2 or 3 weeks i would expect there to be availability, at least to some.

 

[GrimmJeeper]

Use:

I'm an autocross guy... The Jeep is mostly used as a means to get to places for adventure - backpacking, mountaineering etc. Turns out, spirited forest road driving is my jam. Jeep does some mild "crawling" but most driving is done at 20-50mph on rough-ish forest and logging roads.

getting back to your first post, it sounds like you should find out what these guys were running and work off of that as a start. they were very successful rallying an XJ over the type of terrain you were describing in the quote above.

http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1062949&highlight=hazard

good luck.

 

[cometcyclonemk]

Reading through the posts it looks like they were running Bilstein 5100s then perhaps a different Bilstein.

5100s are what I overcooked on the last trip out. They were also a bit plush for my liking.

Pretty sweet rally XJ though!

Doetsch: Please post pictures / more information!

 

[cometcyclonemk]

Just got an email from Doetsch with some information, I'm not sure if they intend to continue posting here so I'll share it:

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"Hi Mark:

Here is the information you requested:

M2S-XXXX-R 2.0 Servicable Monotube Shock with Remote $139.99 ea (GOOD) = Seal is good to Temp 225 degrees

This Series features the ultimate in Performance Shocks. The large bore piston design gives increased precision control and instantly reacts to changes in road conditions. All 20S Series Shocks are hand built and can be custom valved to fit individual needs at no additional charge during the time of placing order. Available for all stock mount vehicles.

Available with Rod Ends for additional charge.

NOTE: Servicable = the shock is tunable and serviceable.

M2R-XXXX-R 2.0 Rebuildable Monotube Shock with Remote $182.52 ea. (BETTER) = Seal is good to Temp 325 degrees

Our 2.0 Rebuildable Monotube are made to bolt directly into stock mounts for any stock, lowered or lifted truck or SUV. The Performance begins with Super-Finished, Hardened, Chrome-Plated Piston Rods designed to endure the most punishing pavement or off-road endeavors.

A Chamber full of High Pressure Nitrogen Gas and Floating Piston Technology results in the quickest responding shock absorber. A big bore reacts faster to bumps and absorbs impact with extreme quickness. Achieve maximum control through application tuned valving

Experience greater performance with SEAMLESS TUBE DESIGN, which keeps the shock operating temperature cooler.

NOTE: Rebuildable = Both ends of this shock are removable and are rebuildable if damaged.

8-1XXXSB with Remote 2.5 Smooth Body $399.00 without Remote $299.00 (BEST) = Will allow use beyond Temp 325 degrees

Our 2.5 Smooth Body Rebuildable Shocks are made for Pre-Runners and Project Vehicles. ALL 2.5's are hand built using CNC Machined components. Each Shock is screw together design (no welding). The 2.5 can be ran one shock per wheel in the rear and single or dual in the front. All 2.5 shocks are shipped with 5/8 Rod Ends. Stock mounts are special order and require deposit and leadtime.

You may require shorter lengths for your Jeep (special lengths not found on race cars) We can size these to fit your application.

We at Doetsch work very hard to produce a quality product with special one-on-one service. WE ARE NOT THE BIGGEST! we do not want to be. We are a custom shock builder with over 35 years of experience. Our products have been tested over time and place. We stand behind our products from our White Production lines that are all valved to perform to there intended use to our High End 3.0 Monotube Race Shocks that have been tested in Baja and Vegas to Reno with serval WINS under our belt.

If you have additional questions please feel free to contact me.

Thank you
Kandee


I will take photos of internals and forward to you by the end of the day.

Thank you
Kandee"

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They also provided tables of lengths for each, once I upload the images to google I'll post them here as well.

 

[cal]

One of the questions i would ask; they mention them being tunable.

Who tunes them; where, when and what does it cost?

While most or all shocks are fairly similar, guys tend to specialize in one or two brands and may stock parts for one or two more - but the best shock in the world is useless if you don't have local access to someone who has the parts, knowledge, time and willingness to work on it with you.

 

[cometcyclonemk]

CAL: I asked your question and a few others. All answers are below.

Given that parts are non-interchangeable, it would seem that one would mostly be on their own for rebuilds/tuning. This might not be a big deal for me as a recreational, uses too much skinny pedal driver - but as you say, makes a world of difference if you're racing. They of course rebuild/tune their own shocks, but that is only useful if you have time to send them in / live in the area. They seem to also sell to a variety of retailers though I suspect they're more of the small, local to southern California type places.


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1. You mention that they are tunable and rebuildable. Where would one get parts to do this? Are they only available through Doetsch, or can parts from other 2" shock manufacturers be used?

All part's are available through Doetsch. Part's are not inter-changable.
…

2. Are the M2Rs available in custom lengths as well? With my current bump stop setup I can run a compressed length of about 14.5". I might be able to extend that a bit, but if possible I would like to run a 9 or 10" shock.

Yes

…
3. It's been mentioned previously that high temp seal/oil options are available. What would that entail for the M2R and what would that run?

The Disogren Seals are no additional cost. We recommend Maxima Synthetic Oil it adds $2.50 per shock.

…
4. I would still be interested in the possibility of a 2" bypass shock providing some semblance of a bump zone during the last couple inches of compression. It looks like you've built one before, do you have more information including pricing?

The Bypass shocks are Custom Order Onlky and must be pre-paid to start with a leadtime of 60 days. The price is $150.00 per Tube added to the M2R Price. Example: Two tube Bypass = $300 + 182.52 = 482.52 per unit. Plus the $2.50 per unit for Maxima Oil.

Thank you
Kandee

 

[cometcyclonemk]

More information rolling in: Doetsch will give a 5% discount to forum members. It seems I can come up with a discount code to share on the forum and they'll make sure sales knows about it.

As I am not familiar with forum rules - and mods reading want to fill me in on if that is acceptable?

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Do you know maximum travel possible for a shock with a 14.5" body? Is there an extra charge for custom lengths?

I will sit down with a Tech and get back with you tomorrow. You might want to give me all the information regarding your vehicle. Mount to Mount measurements, are you running limit straps? everything you can give me. These guys build some crazy race vehicles as well as some really nice Jeeps. So there input is valuable.

…
The pricing information you sent for 2.0s included distributor pricing... I'm assuming you wouldn't want that posted to the forum? If so I can remove that information prior to posting.

Please do not post distributor pricing.

…
If others on the forums are interested in your shocks, any chance of a potential group buy or other forum discount?

I will give an additional 5% discount for your Jeep Forum group (Let me know a code that you will use on your forum write up so the sales department can be informed.
Thank you
Kandee

 

[cometcyclonemk]

And now, pictures! They were sent as you see them, without labels... So - what does everyone think?

With the 5% discount, a pair of 2" external reservoir rebuildable shocks - valved as I specify and with OEM style mounts would be $351 (with the oil upgrade, high temp seals).

Fox look to be $225ea+ for a total of $450 (with unknown valving).

Bilstein prices are comparable, but do not come with a stem mount - further limiting how long of a compressed length would fit (but they do come in a short body version).

 

[cal]

Still no answer on who/where/when with tuning, though?

All of the ability to buy parts in the world does nothing without a tuner whom you have access to.

 

[cometcyclonemk]

No specific answer yet on tuning - and I already agreed with you on that point

Given that parts are non-interchangeable, it would seem that one would mostly be on their own for rebuilds/tuning. This might not be a big deal for me as a recreational, uses too much skinny pedal driver - but as you say, makes a world of difference if you're racing. They of course rebuild/tune their own shocks, but that is only useful if you have time to send them in / live in the area. They seem to also sell to a variety of retailers though I suspect they're more of the small, local to southern California type places.

For my application - where I don't expect to be tuning them often, I don't think it'll make much difference. I am, after all - coming from Bilstein 5100s.

One of the articles I found earlier provided valving information which I suspect would be sufficient to permit making adjustments yourself:

"2.0 monotube valving stacks are made up of 4 discs that control the compression and rebound based on the thickness of each disc stacked on top of each other. These discs flex upon the entry of oil through the piston port. The ports in the pistons have 3 rebound ports and 6 compression ports.

Below you will find the basic valve stacks and the dampening forces produced using the stacks listed for both compression and rebound. The valving that is installed in your new shock is the base line or "medium" valving for that type of vehicle. Valving or dampening forces are determined by personal preferences, i.e. soft, medium, firm

Doetsch-valving.jpg
Doetsch Tech Shock Valving
​
Other than oval track applications, valving's are very rarely #1 over #1 "50/50 style", typically the rebound side is always greater (thicker discs) than the compression side. Here is an example of a very common medium valving and how it is described.

Medium valving: #2/#5, or 2 over 5, or 2/5 This means you use discs from row #2 for compression and discs from row #5 rebound. Using these you would have a valving of 180 lbs. of compression and 350 lbs. of rebound."

 

[tbburg]

Reading through the thread, I think everyone lost track of the original question. Here are some thoughts.
First:

I've known I'm overworking the 5100s since tracing down a trailside clunk years ago and burning my hand on one... The question is - what to replace them with?

This doesn’t mean you’re overworking the shock. 200 deg. will burn the crap out of you, but isn’t necessarily overheating the shock. (I did the same thing on a Fox 2.0 after a hard run.) A more likely problem:

..,my Bilsteins aside from being a bit soft, and now failing after about 30,000 miles.

It’s normal for the fronts to wear out first, something, something, 550b engine hanging a foot over the front axle, etc. 30K miles with more then a bit of flogging seems like pretty good service from a sealed non-serviceable shock.

The question, “which of these to run?” and the list: Doetsch Tech, Bilstein, Fox, Other go-fast suggestions?
You seem to want to get the Doetsch. Nobody who has answered has any experience with them. Several people gave you their suggestions/personal experience/personal preference, which is what you asked for. Fox and Bilstein are popular and a lot of people here run them.
From there the conversation has devolved(That's a surprise, right? Welcome to the internet.) The ongoing argument about the quality of Doetsch is kind of a waste of time. Nobody's run them so nobody has experience. A few years back Penske won a NASCAR championship running Dodge and switched to Ford the following year. Why? They were the only team left running Dodge and didn't want to foot the whole bill for development and testing even though they were winning. Same problem here: most people don't want to have the only set of shocks in the state/county/city and have to figure out replacement/warranty/service by themselves. The "big names" are simpler.


My opinion:
It sounds like the 5100s were doing the job until they wore out. Replace them or upgrade to a 2" shock in the front if you really think you were over-working them. Remote res. is probably overkill if you're staying with the stock mounting points/ rubber bushings/etc.
"Too soft" is kind of vague. Most any shock valving is going to be too soft to really effectively soak up hard repeated bumps without being really harsh on the street.

it seems prothane bumpstops in the coils are the way to go to slow things down before hitting the hard stop

A very good idea.

Bar pin/post eliminators, or stock mounting

Bar pin eliminators make putting a shock that didn't have bar pins pre-installed easier to install, and are stronger, although the stock bar pins seldom fail. The eliminators lower shock travel by about 3/4" which can cause problems in tight mounting situations.

If you want to get a set of Doetsch shocks and try them out, please do. Post up your results. Everyone would love to hear about it.(even the haters). I had a set of Doetsch 2.0 remote res., pin mount w HD polyurethane bushings on top/spherical eye in single shear bottom mount on my truck. They failed due to incorrect setup(Any shock would have failed in that condition) Until they broke, they were working fine under light/medium race conditions. 'No idea how they would work/hold up on the street so I can't comment on that.

 

[cometcyclonemk]

tbburg: Thanks for the response! Yes, the internet digressed, yes I should have expected it. Such is.

That said, your response is full of useful information - Thank you!

Some responses:

This doesn’t mean you’re overworking the shock. 200 deg. will burn the crap out of you, but isn’t necessarily overheating the shock. (I did the same thing on a Fox 2.0 after a hard run.) A more likely problem:

True, though that was after a pretty short stint. On longer runs I have noticed some fade, and on this last trip a 45 minute stint brought them from functional to useless (and no big hits during that time). I suspect I'm still overworking them. The Jeep also did most of those 30k miles when it was a daily driver, highway miles. More recently it's become a dedicated adventure rig where performance issues began to show rather quickly.

You seem to want to get the Doetsch. Nobody who has answered has any experience with them. Several people gave you their suggestions/personal experience/personal preference, which is what you asked for. Fox and Bilstein are popular and a lot of people here run them.

This is mostly accurate. I actually had little intention of buying Doetsch until this thread devolved. The assortment of answers knocking on a product no one knows about doesn't sit well for me - inspiring a closer look.

The ongoing argument about the quality of Doetsch is kind of a waste of time. Nobody's run them so nobody has experience. A few years back Penske won a NASCAR championship running Dodge and switched to Ford the following year. Why? They were the only team left running Dodge and didn't want to foot the whole bill for development and testing even though they were winning. Same problem here: most people don't want to have the only set of shocks in the state/county/city and have to figure out replacement/warranty/service by themselves. The "big names" are simpler.

This, I have not argued with. Were I racing (and when I have raced in other arenas) I would be in exactly the same boat. In my application, the shock will likely remain unopened until it's time for a rebuild, so this carries less weight. If I can save money with a purchase by optimizing for my particular use - I'm all for it. If Fox said they'd sell me 2.0, RR, adjustables for $200ea but I'd get no support from anyone aside from being able to buy parts? I'd probably already have them.

It sounds like the 5100s were doing the job until they wore out. Replace them or upgrade to a 2" shock in the front if you really think you were over-working them. Remote res. is probably overkill if you're staying with the stock mounting points/ rubber bushings/etc.
"Too soft" is kind of vague. Most any shock valving is going to be too soft to really effectively soak up hard repeated bumps without being really harsh on the street.

Several good points here. I do think I was overworking them, this would be especially true if they were even more firm. If possible I would like to keep stock mounting points, but could go with poly bushings.

From a comfort perspective - it's really just an adventure rig at this point. My autocross car has poly bushings everywhere (excepting the aluminum steering rack bushings I made back in the day), koni-reds, solid steering shaft/quick ratio manual rack, no interior, etc etc etc - and it still makes the 1-200mile drives to races. If I can sacrifice a bit of on-road comfort for additional off-road performance that seems reasonable.

It does raise another question however: Both Fox 2.0 and Doetsch 2.0s have optional compression adjustment on their external reservoir variety. Does anyone have experience with these (I'm assuming someone has tried the Fox version)? Do they offer enough range to provide a reasonable on-road ride, and off-road performance?

If you want to get a set of Doetsch shocks and try them out, please do. Post up your results. Everyone would love to hear about it.(even the haters). I had a set of Doetsch 2.0 remote res., pin mount w HD polyurethane bushings on top/spherical eye in single shear bottom mount on my truck. They failed due to incorrect setup(Any shock would have failed in that condition) Until they broke, they were working fine under light/medium race conditions. 'No idea how they would work/hold up on the street so I can't comment on that.

I may end up doing that, in part because it'd be nice to clear up questions about them. I certainly appreciate what seems to be the only firsthand experience regarding them in this thread!

 

[cometcyclonemk]

Update: Reading reviews, sounds like people think the Fox CD adjusters are a gimmick. Contacted Doetsch and they no longer make adjustables (I suspect for that reason).

 

[xcm]

Adjusters ARE a gimmick, with the countless number of jeepspeed rigs out there, getting your hands on valving info isnt hard. Once the valving is right, there is no need for adjusters.

 

[GordoSmasho]

Super great discussion going on here. While im not a gofast guy, more of a crawler, i run the white doetsch baja shocks. I got the stiffest ones they have for stock mounting and travel i needed. They have been great both on and off road. I am planing on moving to an ajustable shock once i get my tons together. I am looking forward to hearing about your experience.

 

[cracker]

Super great discussion going on here. While im not a gofast guy, more of a crawler, i run the white doetsch baja shocks. I got the stiffest ones they have for stock mounting and travel i needed. They have been great both on and off road. I am planing on moving to an ajustable shock once i get my tons together. I am looking forward to hearing about your experience.

Hard to believe this but, in my experience, when you tune for the go-fast, the rock performance increases exponentially.

At the end of the day.....I'd have to go Fox and that is mostly because of support. I have 9100 w/ACVs and the service is no longer there anymore.