A shocking question...

[xcm]

4. I would still be interested in the possibility of a 2" bypass shock providing some semblance of a bump zone during the last couple inches of compression. It looks like you've built one before, do you have more information including pricing?

Ok, so as an engineer you know fluids fallow the path of least resistance...
Bypass tubes BYPASS the shock piston... meaning you cannot make a shock zone stiffer than the static valving, you can only make it SOFTER than the static valving... An example would be the 'landing zone', ie from full droop to about an inch down on the compression side, you want this nice and soft to resist your shocks trying to resist a launched 5000lbs jeep compressing the suspension, you want a gradual cushion, but that 1-2" of travel moves FAST, then the rest of the shock does the rest.

Trophy trucks do what you are talking about, but they have bypasses for every shock zone, and run CRAZY STIFF static valving, then dial each zone in on that bypass. 90% of their shock movement is on the bypass's, the other 10% they want to be crazy stiff (like a bump zone)

I also dont think stock shock mounting is adequate to handle bumpstop loads either, but i could be wrong.

Anyway you slice it, not needed on a non race jeep. Its very telling that your tech support contact didnt get into this kinda stuff, but of course gave you a price...

 

[cometcyclonemk]

Ok, so as an engineer you know fluids fallow the path of least resistance...

Yes. As an engineer, I do understand how a bypass shock works. Stiff static valving combined with a bypass to permit a more compliant ride during some amount of travel near ride height.

4. I would still be interested in the possibility of a 2" bypass shock providing some semblance of a bump zone during the last couple inches of compression. It looks like you've built one before, do you have more information including pricing?

You'll note that I did not request a shock which would provide full bump stop capabilities, but "some semblance of a bump zone" which I would be using in conjunction with bump stops and/or coil inserts (on the compression side).

As an example, I have about 8.5" of travel with ride height almost right in the center. I suspect on-road driving doesn't go beyond about the center 4" of travel. If the bypass covered this, it might be possible to have a very nice ride during that 4" and very firm damping at the top & bottom. Of course multiple bypasses would make the transition more progressive.

I also dont think stock shock mounting is adequate to handle bumpstop loads either, but i could be wrong.

Full bump loads, you're might be right here - but my thought was something closer to very firmly valved shock loads.

Anyway you slice it, not needed on a non race jeep.

ARB effectively does this with their BP-51 (internal bypass) shocks, so it seems like a reasonable request to make - specifically for a non-race vehicle where a compliant ride might be desired. I suspect bypass shocks aren't used on street rigs primarily due to cost.

http://www.arb.com.au/products/old-man-emu-4x4-suspension/bp-51/

Its very telling that your tech support contact didnt get into this kinda stuff, but of course gave you a price...

Perhaps, though at that point they didn't really have details about my vehicle/use. I also never asked further questions once I saw the price, as I asked mostly on a whim. Also, I've been dealing with sales. She has sent all my vehicle information to a tech who should at some point get back to me with more information. I've included all our interactions here in the interest of transparency - I'm just a guy trying to get the best shocks possible within a certain budget.

 

[XJ_ranger]

I know nothing about douschtech shocks.

I was happy with my Bilstein 7100 short body 12" shocks on the front valved at the 278/55? when I had coil springs. They did not like being my suspension travel limiter, but that was my fault - I didn't have appropriate bump stops.

I have switched to Fox 2.5 air shocks, and while those aren't really relevant to your needs, I can attest that I've had my front shocks since 2008, have never taken them apart, the shafts have been sand blasted at JV, up fire roads at Naches, run the dunes at Sand Hollow, and are pitted from all that, in addition my D60 kingpin bolts have gouged into the shafts and bodies because my suspension cycles differently than I can make it happen in my garage, and they haven't leaked once. They've never leaked down or stopped suspending my rig. Also, I've gotten them hot enough that there is a scar on my hand from touching them... and the same seals have been in there since 2008...

I'm happy with them, and would add a +1 to the Fox category. :guitar:

 

[cometcyclonemk]

XJ_ranger: Thanks for the info! The 7100 short body's would be great, except that they are not available in a stem mount. The gains found with the short body seem to be lost when you account for converting the upper mount.

Good to know on the fox shocks - hopefully the ability to take that kind of abuse goes across their entire product line. I may yet end up going the fox route if I can find them used / a good deal new. I'm currently waiting to hear from back from Doetsch - I want to see how much travel they can get out of a ~14" compressed length with a stem mount.

Jeep measurements are:

At ride height: 19" between the upper stem mount surface and the lower bar pin mount.

At full bump: 14.25" (assuming 50% compression of bump stop)

At full droop: 22.75" (with control arms preventing further travel)

That puts me at 8.5" of travel in a ~14" compressed length shock. Given that the control arms are my limiter and that I may eventually go with different arms or drop brackets - I'd like to get at least 9" of travel - 10 would be great.

- Mark

 

[XJ_ranger]

At full bump: 14.25" (assuming 50% compression of bump stop)

If you're using the factory rubber bumps sticking out of the coil tower, they compress all the way to the metal.

That puts me at 8.5" of travel in a ~14" compressed length shock. Given that the control arms are my limiter and that I may eventually go with different arms or drop brackets - I'd like to get at least 9" of travel - 10 would be great.

How do the control arms limit your droop? You can grind the top of the lower control arm mount / bottom of the shock mount to gain some more movement there. Also with factory mounts on the axle / frame, a lot of companies make arms with a bend in them to make additional clearance for droop. If you plan on spending the "Right" amount of money on good shocks, and you plan on changing the suspension later, it might be worth looking into the suspension part now to make sure the 'expensive' new shocks will work. The various radius arm / 4 link long arm / 3 link mid arm products out there will change how the suspension cycles and may change what you've got going on. (Food for thought)

 

[cometcyclonemk]

If you're using the factory rubber bumps sticking out of the coil tower, they compress all the way to the metal.

Good to know on bumpstop compression. Seems like I'll need to do enough extending to ensure I can at least get a 14" compressed length shock to not bottom out.

I had planned on doing prothane inserts - I'll have to account for that when I start into that project.

How do the control arms limit your droop? You can grind the top of the lower control arm mount / bottom of the shock mount to gain some more movement there. Also with factory mounts on the axle / frame, a lot of companies make arms with a bend in them to make additional clearance for droop.

That's exactly where they hit - axle side lower control arm mounts. No concerns about strength with grinding these?

If you plan on spending the "Right" amount of money on good shocks, and you plan on changing the suspension later, it might be worth looking into the suspension part now to make sure the 'expensive' new shocks will work. The various radius arm / 4 link long arm / 3 link mid arm products out there will change how the suspension cycles and may change what you've got going on. (Food for thought)

Changes to suspension later would be either (short) control arms with the previously mentioned bend, or some sort of yet un-researched drop bracket kit suitable for my 3ish" lift over stock. The ride isn't particularly harsh now, but I can reach the same outcome (more downward travel) for roughly the same money while allowing the control arms to sit level at ride height - seems like a win-win.

I suspect neither of these would have a large impact on the way the suspension cycles beyond permitting more downward travel - that's why I'm looking to get as much travel as possible in a 14" compressed length.

 

[rockclimber]

That's exactly where they hit - axle side lower control arm mounts. No concerns about strength with grinding these?

its a non-issue.

 

[VAhasnoWAVES]

a shock with a 14" compressed length is only going to be about an 8" travel shock, not the travel numbers it sounds like you want. but it does sound about perfect for the tavel numbers you posted. by the time you bump stop and limit strap accordingly (ya know, to protect them bling shocks) your looking at loosing 0.5-2" of shock travel depending on what kind of safety factor you want to build in. shocks dont like being bump stops or limit straps. i was able to stuff a 12" travel shock into the front of my cherokee, and considered 14s. for the work and my use, 12s were fine.

consider giving the shock game a rest for a minute and focusing on the suspension geometry itself. fancy shocks and tuning can make a world of difference on a race rig, but arent going to make THEE difference from where it sounds like your suspension is at.

 

[cometcyclonemk]

shock with a 14" compressed length is only going to be about an 8" travel shock

As CAL previously pointed out, that may be true for Fox/King/etc, but Bilstein makes a 7100 short body 10" travel with a 14.21" compressed length. The issue with Bilsteins is that they do not come with a stem mount - using an adapter would only further limit my compressed length.

What I'm waiting on - is hearing how much travel Doetsch can get into 14" compressed length shock - with a stem upper mount.

by the time you bump stop and limit strap accordingly (ya know, to protect them bling shocks) your looking at loosing 0.5-2" of shock travel depending on what kind of safety factor you want to build in.

The 14" compressed length should take care of any concerns about using the shocks as bump stops. Additionally, I intend to do Prothane inserts such that by the time the bumpstops are hit - the energy should be drastically dissipated.

Downward travel is currently limited by control arms hitting axle side mounts. Not ideal, but should keep shocks happy until I notch the mounts. Depending on how much travel that gains and my shock choice - limiting straps may be in order.

consider giving the shock game a rest for a minute and focusing on the suspension geometry itself. fancy shocks and tuning can make a world of difference on a race rig, but aren't going to make THEE difference from where it sounds like your suspension is at.

I can't exactly "give the shock game a rest" as my fronts are shot. Considering replacing the 5100s would run about $160 - we're really talking about a $200 premium here to upgrade. Will I see $200 worth of performance increases via a shock upgrade? That's a great question I'd love to hear an answer to.

As for geometry - I don't know that there's anything particularly worth changing at my ride height. If someone made a control arm drop kit suitable for a 3" lift - it might be worthwhile to reduce transmission of bumps into the chassis. As it is, the control arms are not far from level and the larger oblong WJ bushings work wonders to reduce a harsh ride.

 

[VAhasnoWAVES]

As CAL previously pointed out, that may be true for Fox/King/etc, but Bilstein makes a 7100 short body 10" travel with a 14.21" compressed length. The issue with Bilsteins is that they do not come with a stem mount - using an adapter would only further limit my compressed length.
soooo... how is that beneficial?

What I'm waiting on - is hearing how much travel Doetsch can get into 14" compressed length shock - with a stem upper mount.
id bet money that their flavor of shocks is very similar to everything else on the market. they arent going to have some radical new design that changes the game... basic operation is going to be the same. and as a result, so is their product.

The 14" compressed length should take care of any concerns about using the shocks as bump stops. Additionally, I intend to do Prothane inserts such that by the time the bumpstops are hit - the energy should be drastically dissipated.
how? its only going to LIMIT your shock choice to a shorter body. your going to want something with a 14" or LESS compressed length to live a happy life in that space.

Downward travel is currently limited by control arms hitting axle side mounts. Not ideal, but should keep shocks happy until I notch the mounts. Depending on how much travel that gains and my shock choice - limiting straps may be in order.
like you said... not ideal, but it works. many of us relied on that early on in our jeep careers. keep in mind that it is stamped sheet metal at the end of the day. it WILL deform over time.

I can't exactly "give the shock game a rest" as my fronts are shot. Considering replacing the 5100s would run about $160 - we're really talking about a $200 premium here to upgrade. Will I see $200 worth of performance increases via a shock upgrade? That's a great question I'd love to hear an answer to.

As for geometry - I don't know that there's anything particularly worth changing at my ride height. If someone made a control arm drop kit suitable for a 3" lift - it might be worthwhile to reduce transmission of bumps into the chassis. As it is, the control arms are not far from level and the larger oblong WJ bushings work wonders to reduce a harsh ride.

your measurement at full bump looks to be (to me) your limiting factor. most people bump stop for a given tire and find a shock that fits. nothing terribly wrong with that approach or yours. fact is, a 14" bump measurement isnt going to get you much... no way around that. relocating the lower shock mount is something you should look into. if you cant, well, then reworking the upper mount is definitely out of the question and your going to have to live with a short shock.

 

[cometcyclonemk]

soooo... how is that beneficial?

That in and of itself is not. But it does tell me that 10" of travel is possible in a 14" compressed length shock.

id bet money that their flavor of shocks is very similar to everything else on the market. they arent going to have some radical new design that changes the game... basic operation is going to be the same. and as a result, so is their product.

Right. So if they can built a shock as Bilstein does, but put a stem mount on one end - I can have my 10" travel shock in a 14" compressed length. Compressed length at a minimum will be the length of the shaft + ends + piston. So far as I know, shocks are only longer to increase oil capacity. This would explain by Bilstein offers 7100s in a short body only with an external reservoir.

The real difference with Doetsch is that they (so far) seem willing to build whatever I ask of them.

how? its only going to LIMIT your shock choice to a shorter body. your going to want something with a 14" or LESS compressed length to live a happy life in that space.

This is exactly what I was trying to communicate here. The purpose in getting a 14" compressed length shock is to prevent the need to extend bump stops. Yes, that limits my choices.

it WILL deform over time.

Roger.

your measurement at full bump looks to be (to me) your limiting factor. most people bump stop for a given tire and find a shock that fits. nothing terribly wrong with that approach or yours. fact is, a 14" bump measurement isnt going to get you much... no way around that. relocating the lower shock mount is something you should look into. if you cant, well, then reworking the upper mount is definitely out of the question and your going to have to live with a short shock.

Yup. Exactly why I'm hoping they can make a 10" travel shock fit. Seems like a win-win if it's doable. Relocating mounts would be great, at some point I should buy a welder and re-learn how to TIG.

The other thing worth noting is that if this works out, I will still have completely rebuildable shocks. Most will sell a longer body, different ends for different mounts, etc etc. If my needs drastically change down the road it should be possible to reconfigure at a lower cost than a new set.

 

[GordoSmasho]

Good to know on bumpstop compression. Seems like I'll need to do enough extending to ensure I can at least get a 14" compressed length shock to not bottom out.



I had planned on doing prothane inserts - I'll have to account for that when I start into that project.







That's exactly where they hit - axle side lower control arm mounts. No concerns about strength with grinding these?







Changes to suspension later would be either (short) control arms with the previously mentioned bend, or some sort of yet un-researched drop bracket kit suitable for my 3ish" lift over stock. The ride isn't particularly harsh now, but I can reach the same outcome (more downward travel) for roughly the same money while allowing the control arms to sit level at ride height - seems like a win-win.

I run the re drop kit with re solid lowers and adjustable uppers at 3" of lift. It rides very nicely on the street. And i max out my cheep 12" shocks both direction. Still working on limit straps at this point but thats why im using the cheapest shocks i can find.

Why not just modify your upper mount to be a bar mount and get the 7100s? I have seen it done. Im not talking about adapters. There would be a small amount of fabrication involved. But it sounds like it would open some options up for you.

 

[XJ_ranger]

Why not just modify your upper mount to be a bar mount and get the 7100s? I have seen it done. Im not talking about adapters. There would be a small amount of fabrication involved. But it sounds like it would open some options up for you.

This.

I can recommend at least 2 shops in the greater Seattle area who could perform the custom work to accomplish this if you weren't comfortable.

Also, consider lowering the bottom mount to the side of the lower control arm mount. Some searching around here and pirate4x4 should yield some good pictures.

Just because the factory mounted the shock there, with studs / bar pins, doesn't mean that you have to. :wave:

 

[cracker]

Nominated...........

 

[cometcyclonemk]

Have any images of the upper conversions you mention? The only ones I've seen have been adapters or required extensive modifications.

I'd be happy to go with 7100 short bodies - if the mounting issue was easily solved.

 

[GordoSmasho]

I cant find any pics of the upper mount but there are a few different ways to do it.

This is a whole thread on modifying your axle side for more travel. The pic in post #6 looks best to me.
http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1118609

 

[cometcyclonemk]

Just a thought, but has anyone considered enlarging the hole in the stock bar-pin mount and using JKS-style bar pin eliminators on the bottom?

It wouldn't provide the amount of extra room shown in the mounts you linked to, but would remove the need for a lower bar pin & provide an extra 3/4" or so of shock length.

It would also be within the realm of what I can do in my garage without welding equipment...

 

[xcm]

Yeah, please mount your shocks to the control arm mount, so YOU TOO can look like the pics I posted of tone on page 2.

 

[xcm]

Just a thought, but has anyone considered enlarging the hole in the stock bar-pin mount and using JKS-style bar pin eliminators on the bottom?

It wouldn't provide the amount of extra room shown in the mounts you linked to, but would remove the need for a lower bar pin & provide an extra 3/4" or so of shock length.

It would also be within the realm of what I can do in my garage without welding equipment...

I don't think you will have enough room for the shock eyelet, and the shock body at full compression, I think to remove that much material, you will be removing the bolt holes, or at minimum severely weakening them.

All jokes aside, do not just put two tabs off the lower control arm mounts like a noob.

 

[rockclimber]

Yeah, please mount your shocks to the control arm mount, so YOU TOO can look like the pics I posted of tone on page 2.

if you do it correctly its a non-issue.