A shocking question...

[cometcyclonemk]

Disclaimer:

A question about shocks. Yup, one of those. But one I can't quite find an answer to via search.

My Jeep is much more mild than most in this part of , but my use more closely resembles yours than elsewhere... So here I am!

Jeep:

1991, AX-15, 3ish " OME springs front and rear, Bilstein 5100s, Daystar poly bumpstops in the rear, 31" Duratracs on Ravines, WJ big bushing lower control arms.

Use:

I'm an autocross guy... The Jeep is mostly used as a means to get to places for adventure - backpacking, mountaineering etc. Turns out, spirited forest road driving is my jam. Jeep does some mild "crawling" but most driving is done at 20-50mph on rough-ish forest and logging roads.

Problem:

I've known I'm overworking the 5100s since tracing down a trailside clunk years ago and burning my hand on one... The question is - what to replace them with?

The rears for now at least seem up to the task - they don't get nearly as hot, and unlike the fronts which gave up on the last trip (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVSGVd5ZJY8) - they're still doing the job. The 4" daystar bumps help a lot!

Up front, I'm looking for a sub $200/ea rebuildable damper, with an external reservoir.

Seems like the Fox 2.0, Bilstein 7100, Doetsch 2.0 Monotube Rebuildable all mostly fit the bill, some a bit north, some a bit south of $200.

Any thoughts on which of these to go with?

Doetsch Tech:

I've read lots of bad about Doetsch Tech, but almost all seem to be about the "white" shocks that were packaged with various lift kits. My cousin had their 2.5s on a go fast ranger and raved about them.

Bilstein:

I've been mostly happy with my Bilsteins aside from being a bit soft, and now failing after about 30,000 miles.

Fox:

No experience with Fox except on mountain bikes, but they bring the $$ with the name.

Other go-fast suggestions?

Once that is settled, it seems prothane bumpstops in the coils are the way to go to slow things down before hitting the hard stop. Bar pin/post eliminators, or stock mounting sufficient?

One final question:

Am I going way overboard here? Does it make more sense to spend half as much on another set of 5100s? Perhaps not worth while so long as I'm still on OME springs? Or will a setup like this have me hooked and looking for more?

Thanks!

 

[xcm]

FOX RACING, 2.5"

5 years ago people were falling over each other to buy the new edelbrock shocks because they had a remote reservoir and were cheaper than a fox... go ahead and guess how many 5 year old edelbrocks are floating around compared to fox.


Hey, you could always slow down some if you dont want to pay.

 

[cal]

Fox, Bilstein, King and Sway-A-Way are all more or less the same inside. Minor differences, but it will come down to where you can get a deal and more importantly, aftermarket support.

I run Bilstein, because at the time that I bought, they had the best service available to a member (the top 2 guys in their offroad program drove XJ's and they regularly monitored our forums to offer support). Both of those guys have since left the company.

If I had to buy today, it would be Fox - purely because the best shock tuner in the desert scene right now is working for Fox Shocks.

 

[cometcyclonemk]

Thanks for the responses!

Good to know that they are internally, all quite similar. Though that still leaves the Doetsch as a big unknown.

As for tuning - I think that's beyond the scope of the use my rig will see after the initial set up. One of the nice things about Doetsch, is they seem willing to set valving based on parameters I can provide - vehicle/unsprung weight, spring rates etc. Now as to how good they are at said tuning, and the quality of their shocks I can't say.

And I do understand that in many cases you get what you pay for... At least in the mountain bike world however, you pay a premium for the Fox name for a performance increase that is either non-existent or so marginal that it would only be noticed by those riding professionally.

So if anyone has first hand experience with Doetsch rebuildables I'd love to hear it. The great news scenario here would be that they're very much the same internally as the others - but at a reduced price point given they don't have the name.

*Edit* And the point is well taken that parts availability and forum sponsorship are important factors! The lack on information on the Doetsch alone is worrisome.

 

[cal]

I'm sorry, let me be clear.

Those 4 brands stand above. Doetsch isn't an unknown - Doetsch isn't in the game.

 

[cometcyclonemk]

Why aren't they in the game?

I can understand if the reasoning is customer service, knowledge base for tuning, a lack of them supporting the community, etc. If it's one of those reasons, peace. Got it. Those are valid reasons to go elsewhere.

If there's a difference in design, quality control, component quality etc - I would love to hear about it. Those are certainly valid reasons to look elsewhere.

But they seem, at least on paper to be constructed in a very similar way. I can only assume it has to do with quality. Perhaps they do not hold appropriate tolerances in the manufacturing process or similar.

And feel free to lay it on me in technical terms - the descriptions from all the above manufacturers seem to be mostly marketing fluff. I'd rather have the details than the slogan.

 

[cal]

Because they aren't building the same class or quality of parts.

I'm trying to find a cutaway of the internals on a Doetsch shock, but no one appears to have bothered taking and posting such a photo. Doetsch competes with Rancho and Fabtech, not with the likes of Bilstein and Fox. Their top of the line shock runs what.. $180 MSRP? You can't compete with the big dogs and still afford to buy a shock that cheap.

If you're looking at Doetsch because its what fits your budget, great, go for them. But then this thread is an utter waste.

 

[cal]

 

[cometcyclonemk]

So perhaps then it's just a lack of advertising on their part... According to their website they offer everything from basic "white body" shocks, all the way to 3" triple bypass shocks, built to order.

Their 2" external reservoir shocks (rebuildable variety) run right at $200. Which is pretty well in line with Bilstein pricing and a bit less than fox.

http://doetschshocks.com/i-10273543-m2r-xxxx-w-remote.html

Their 2.5" are almost $400...

http://doetschshocks.com/i-10273551-8-1xxxsb-w-remote.html

Bypass shocks don't list prices, but I'd guess they're somewhere near the ballpark of those offered by others. Probably a bit less due to the lack of recognition.

It seems to me that all the reviews I've seen refer to their basic, non-rebuildable shocks. I'll agree, selling cheap shocks doesn't do wonders for their racing reputation - but often times a company needs to do such things to support their racing habits. Ferrari started building road cars as a stop gap to pay the bills between wins... It still seems like there is a complete lack of information about their (higher end) shocks.

And it is true that about $200 a shock is my budget. As I said from the beginning, I'm not building a prerunner, JeepSpeed rig etc. I simply enjoy going fast on occasion, and am willing to pay almost 4x what most of the guys in the other parts of the forum pay to do so. I thought it seemed reasonable that one of you guys might have gotten started down the JeepSpeed road with similar humble beginnings to my own - and might perhaps have some knowledge to share.

And for the record, my knowledge of the off-road racing world is almost completely non-existent.

That said, I am a mechanical engineer by education, designed the suspension (with a whole 2" of travel! :O ) on a national championship winning Formula Student race car (http://www.global-formula-racing.com/), and now work as an aerospace engineer. In aerospace especially, I am familiar with paying for the pedigree. When it comes to my <$5000 Jeep I'm willing to do a bit of research if it means getting a quality shock at a lower price.

 

[cal]

As far as their upper end shocks go; if you were to go to say, King of the Hammers, you won't find them there - or if you did, I would be completely and utterly shocked. No pun intended.

If you're looking for advice, its to stay away from them.

A 914 says Porsche on it, but its still an effing Volkswagen. Doetsch doesn't play with the big boys, and there are far better ways to spend your money.

 

[StinkyFab]

What Cal says is truth. Go to any competitive off-road event in the world and you will see plenty of King, Fox, SAW and Bilstein. You will NOT find Doetch, or anyone who knows anything about them, where to get parts for them, how to tune them etc. Also, if you're looking at what they are offering in the same price range as others give or take a few bucks, why would there even be a question. When you're talking about spending $800-1000 on a set of shocks, an extra $40-50 for a quality product with known reputation, support and parts availability is a no-brainer.

 

[cometcyclonemk]

I would have been happy to hear, "Doetsch uses inferior seal material that degrades at high temperatures", "Doetsch shafts are poorly plated leading to premature corrosion", "Doetsch shocks do not offer the adjustability of their competition" or any number of factual reasons to look elsewhere.

I understand where the sentiment that one should go with the tried and true comes from. I'm sorry we couldn't get to a place where we could discuss factual details of the shocks.

I'll take my questions elsewhere. Thanks for the time.

*Edit* StinkyFab - The point about going with tried and true if price is close is well taken. At that price point, Doetsch offers custom valving and OEM style mounts. I don't believe that's true of the others without paying a retailer to make the changes.

 

[StinkyFab]

As long as we're talking about different brands, FOA always seems to come up in coilover conversations. WHY? Because they are cheaper, and on paper they look like the same thing. They are rebuildable, valveable, tunable, "performance" shocks. In reality they are like the Harbor freight version of a King. The machining is rough, the seals are poor at best, the customer service and support could be called questionable, and overall the reports I've gotten from everyone that has run them has been that they would have spent a little more if they had to do it again. Many of them did do it again to get away from leaky, poor performing shocks. There have been enough complaints that I have stopped putting them on customer vehicles, even if they are supplied by the customer.

I wouldn't want to say any of this about Doetch simply because they are so far out in left field I've never even seen one in person. Maybe they are good quality, maybe not, but to say they look the same as the well known brands on paper is a pretty big leap.

 

[StinkyFab]

I would have been happy to hear, "Doetsch uses inferior seal material that degrades at high temperatures", "Doetsch shafts are poorly plated leading to premature corrosion", "Doetsch shocks do not offer the adjustability of their competition" or any number of factual reasons to look elsewhere.

I understand where the sentiment that one should go with the tried and true comes from. I'm sorry we couldn't get to a place where we could discuss factual details of the shocks.

I'll take my questions elsewhere. Thanks for the time.

The problem is nobody knows the factual details because the shocks damn near don't exist in the real world.

 

[cal]

I would have been happy to hear, "Doetsch uses inferior seal material that degrades at high temperatures", "Doetsch shafts are poorly plated leading to premature corrosion", "Doetsch shocks do not offer the adjustability of their competition" or any number of factual reasons to look elsewhere.

I understand where the sentiment that one should go with the tried and true comes from. I'm sorry we couldn't get to a place where we could discuss factual details of the shocks.

I'll take my questions elsewhere. Thanks for the time.

Thats what we're trying to tell you though; people don't even bother to look that closely at them. they are not at the table.

Doetsch shocks are not to a level that they warrant a close look yet. You can search for someone with this answer forever, but you're just wasting your time.

Its like asking why a Kia Spectra isn't used in Rally Racing. Sure you could probably try it - but why would you?

 

[cometcyclonemk]

As long as we're talking about different brands, FOA always seems to come up in coilover conversations. WHY? Because they are cheaper, and on paper they look like the same thing. They are rebuildable, valveable, tunable, "performance" shocks. In reality they are like the Harbor freight version of a King. The machining is rough, the seals are poor at best, the customer service and support could be called questionable, and overall the reports I've gotten from everyone that has run them has been that they would have spent a little more if they had to do it again. Many of them did do it again to get away from leaky, poor performing shocks. There have been enough complaints that I have stopped putting them on customer vehicles, even if they are supplied by the customer.

I wouldn't want to say any of this about Doetch simply because they are so far out in left field I've never even seen one in person. Maybe they are good quality, maybe not, but to say they look the same as the well known brands on paper is a pretty big leap.

StinkyFab: This is exactly the answer I've been looking for! This information as you admit, does not seem to be available for Doetsch. There's nothing wrong with letting a little more competition into a market - it can only mean better products at better prices for enthusiasts. I don't see a need to bash on a company because they're not known, but if they have a reputation of making bad products - and that reputation is backed by facts - absolutely.

 

[sidewaysstarion]

I look at their website and the pictures and information provided about their shocks is rather underwhelming and makes me wonder if they even build shocks.

For example, the 2.5" shocks with reservoirs have the description of.

"Our 2.5 Smooth Body Rebuildable Shocks are made for Pre-Runners and Project Vehicles. All 2.5s are hand built using CNC machined components. Each Shock is screw together design (no welding). The 2.5 can be ran one shock per wheel in the rear and single or dual in the front. All 2.5 Shocks are shipped with 5/8 Rod Ends only. We do not sell these with stock mount configuration. Stock mounts are special order and require a deposit and leadtime."

But as you can clearly see by the picture the top of the shock is welded together and there is a reservoir laying next to the shock with a tube that goes no where, nor is there a fitting on the shock for it to attach to.

Another thing, they list 0 specs about their shocks, no extended or compressed lengths, or availability of different bodies etc. For example, if you look at the bilstien catalog in the non-vehicle specific section you will see the specs of all of the shocks and part numbers listed.

http://cart.bilsteinus.com/pdfs/off-road.pdf

 

[cometcyclonemk]

You're absolutely right - their website is terrible. I've sent them an email linking to this thread - with luck they'll provide some more information.

I hope we can all agree that having more information about a product in a space we all seem to care about is a good thing.

If a discussion looking for more information about this company and their products is not welcome here - Let me know and I'll stop responding now.

I assume they don't provide specifics because their game is to have you describe the vehicle, measure and then they'll spec the shock. The merits of that method are debatable...

That said, I found this: http://ck5.com/forums/resources/custom-doetschtech-shock-installation.80/

Which contains this bit of information:

 

[xcm]

Man, you REALLY want those shocks dont you?

Buy them!

You have been warned a million differant ways, you deserve what you get.

 

[cometcyclonemk]

I'm sorry. I thought enthusiasts would be interested in an actual discussion of the merits of competing products.

I have no desire for any one of these products over another. Simply a desire to understand the differences between them in order to make an educated decision as to which to go with. At this point, no one has provided this information.

Sidewaystarion got close, pointing out that their website contains written information not congruent with images.

StinkyFab provided the right kind of information for another manufacturer. Admitting the necessary information is not available for Doetsch.

Cal, I suspect knows tons on the subject but has a view clouded by years of experience with competing products unwilling to entertain that another entity might be able to manufacture a simple mechanical component to the quality of an incumbent.

And XCM - you have provided nothing constructive to the conversation.

Maybe I'm asking to much of the internet, looking for a fact based discussion. Perhaps my education as a mechanical engineer with a focus in vehicle dynamics, and employment designing military aerospace systems leaves me unqualified to understand the magical functions of a damper.

I guess for that, I "deserve what I get".