A shocking question...

[Ronbo]

Doetsch doesn't offer much, if any real info about their product - their website is a good example. Doetsch does not seem to offer much in the way of race support based on what people see out at the actual events. And there doesn't seem to be many actual users of their higher end product to even give an accurate experience, other than your cousin.
That doesn't lend itself well to anyone unless you're willing to go out on a limb and experiment yourself - something most people don't want to do if they're working with a budget. So you're being pointed towards the known performers.

I ran their lower end shocks about 15 years ago and went to their facility in San Diego. Nice people to deal with.

 

[dan1977p]

Dude, you're an engineer. That means your sole purpose in life is to over-complicate the most basic of tasks and you are succeeding spectacularly in this thread and getting angry at everyone else for not wanting to have a hugely unnecessary technical conversation about a topic that has been beaten to death. I have no idea how far into your career you are, but sooner or later (around 20 years of experience from what I've noticed) you will stop trying to reinvent the wheel and use the knowledge and experience of other individuals to actually implement the proper solution and not just the coolest new one. You think differently than a lot of folks and that's not a bad thing, but YOU need to understand that and interact with non-engineers appropriately. This is all said from one engineer to another so I completely understand why you are going about it the way you are but I've progressed far enough now that I'd rather have a standard working solution to the problem now so I can wheel vs sitting on the couch discussing the pros and cons of some new design or fringe company while my jeep sits in the garage hopelessly waiting for my loving touch.

Short answer, buy the shock everyone here is recommending. They have tons more empirical knowledge and on a 25 year old platform, that means something.

 

[cometcyclonemk]

Actually, as an engineer my job is to deliver the right product, on schedule, on budget. I'd like to think I do a pretty dang good job of it.

This is exactly what I'm trying to do here. It's well worth a couple days of internet banter to get the best product possible at the price I am willing to pay.

The only statement I found aggravating here was the one regarding my "getting what I deserve" and the belief that because I'm asking about a competing product I must already be sold on it. If I was sold on it, I'd have bought them already.

I find the lack of willingness to discuss a topic disappointing. I understand that people have empirical data saying that Fox (Sway-Away, Bilstein, King) make great shocks. I am not, for an instant questioning that to be true.

I also understand that people don't seem to have empirical data regarding Doetsch. This does not make them bad, simply an unknown.

We are not reinventing the proverbial wheel with this discussion. Simply asking if by some miracle - more than 4 companies can produce a quality one. A mono-tube damper, the likes of which we are discussing is really a very simple thing. From a design perspective I wouldn't be at all surprised to find them all very similarly designed and constructed. I suspect manufacturing quality and the knowledge of those who tune them varies much more than the designs.

Ronbo: Thanks for the first hand experience! Your point about a budget minded build not being the place to experiment with an unknown shock is valid. That's exactly why I'm trying to make it a known before a purchase.

All: Wouldn't it be great if I had asked my question and someone provided a response like StinkyFab provided for FOA? One person could easily provide reason as to why these are bad. Thread, over.

And wouldn't it be even better if we determined they build shocks at the same level as their competition, and all saved a buck?

I already wrote it once: If this is an unwelcome conversation, let me know and it'll be over.

If anyone is interested in digging deeper, let's keep looking.

 

[cal]

If they were going through the trouble of building a shock at the same level as their competition, they would go out of their way to make sure that we know that.

Their poor website and lack of product documentation in an industry where neither is deemed acceptable is voice enough to say that they are "probably" not building a product at the same level of their customer.

I say probably because I haven't taken one apart and checked it out - but the odds are extremely in my favour of being correct, enough so that it does not warrant further investigation.

Any shock company based in Southern California and not involved in offroad racing, is not taking offroad shocks serious. It really is just that simple.

 

[xcm]

Dude, you're an engineer. That means your sole purpose in life is to over-complicate the most basic of tasks and you are succeeding spectacularly in this thread and getting angry at everyone else for not wanting to have a hugely unnecessary technical conversation about a topic that has been beaten to death.
.[/B]

NAILED IT

 

[cometcyclonemk]

XCM - Please continue to provide such useful information. Attacks on my character ARE relevant to this discussion! Don't let the naysayers tell you otherwise .

CAL: The lack of information available, & poor website IS worrisome. I agree that it seems unlikely that a company could be such a PR nightmare & also make a great product.

Then again, there's always the chance they're just a tiny company comprised of computer illiterate individuals.

With a bit more googling I came across this somewhat strange article:
https://www.shocksandsuspension.com/ORB0807_40-45.pdf

Written in 2007, as of that time they had all of 14 employees! Pretty clear that a company that small could not provide the type of support one might need when racing. Certainly parts will not be as readily available as they are for the big brand shocks - I'd guess Fox employs more people making hats than Doetsch does overall.

The article does imply they have involvement in some forms of racing. From what I can tell, their truck won 7100 class, Vegas to Reno in 2009.

 

[cal]

Yeah, but in 2009 7100 class was a bunch of very slow, limited travel door slammers. They reviews the rules a couple of years later because they were only having 2-3 entries at a time. Winning a race in that class at that time was mostly just a matter of showing up with enough gas in your tank.

 

[Demonoid369]

It doesn't matter if the company only had 14 employees. Look at stinky fab, small fab shop that as far as I can tell, is just him. And cal helping. But he himself has never given vague answers or info. He goes into depth what he is show casing. Heck usually if you're a small group, you want to add as much info as you can to showcase your product.

 

[cometcyclonemk]

Good to know! You're right - it looks like there were all of 6 vehicles in that class, that year.

Not that you can tell much by it, but a picture of that truck is below.

So we still don't know, but it is probably safe to say that they produce something somewhat less capable than what is available through other manufacturers. At least at the high end.

At ~$320 Doetsch will provide a pair of remote reservoir 2" shocks, length and valved to my specifications (or chosen by them based my vehicle parameters) and with OEM style mounts.

The same thing from Fox would run about $450. For 40% more, I'd be getting peace of mind that parts will be available and known quality. I'll have to decide if that is worth it. Whichever I go with, I'll certainly be letting the forum know. If it turns out to be the unknown shock - I'll gladly provide images and a review. If they ever require rebuilding, I'll post that up as well.

Because knowledge is cool and all that.

Party on.

 

[Demonoid369]

All I'm saying is if a company isn't willing to properly showcase their product, which has been shown, what makes you think they are willing to do that with their actual product. When it comes to small change products, it's alright to try and be different because it's only pocket change. But when it comes to big $$$ why risk your money with a company that won't even give you solid info? That's why people go for fox, bilstien and similar because these companies know if you're gonna spend big bucks, they want you to know exactly what you're getting.

 

[cal]

Let me offer you another perspective to look at:

How modified is your vehicle? And are you going to pay a custom tuner?

Look at the compressed lengths vs travel for each shock now. If you aren't going to pay a custom tuner, then your best bet will be to find out what others of similar build have had work for them, and order a similar valving.

But you may find that in the space you have to work with, you can fit a 12" bilstein, a 10" king and an 8" fox.

I'm pulling those numbers out of my ass, but you should go look, and see what compressed length shock you can stuff into your car.

FWIW, Bilstein has the shortest compressed length for any travel, by a long shot.

 

[RWKHausSupply]

Why not buy some dirt logics by f*ag tech?

 

[RWKHausSupply]

FWIW, Bilstein has the shortest compressed length for any travel, by a long shot.

Well Kinda Cal. New Redflos for Blaine I think were spec'd well and I think as short (compressed) as any others out there, if not shorter for the same travel.

And king also can build a short overall shock, you just have to get welded eyes on both end, so in the front of a XJ it doesnt work as well as a stem top mount for overall compressed.

 

[cometcyclonemk]

Thanks for the questions, CAL!

My Jeep is very, very mild. I will not be having it tuned by anyone. I apologize if my initial post wasn't clear - this is far from a race Jeep.

Front Suspension:

3" Old Man Emu (ARB) Springs
Poly Spring Isolators
Grand Cherokee (WJ) modified lower control arms (fully boxed, larger bushings)
Bilstein 5100s (the ones that need replacing)
Grand Cherokee V8 solid tie rod
Steering box reinforcement (bumper ties into frame on both sides)

Rear Suspension:

3" Old Man Emu Springs
Bilstein 5100s
Daystar universal 4" poly bumpstops (similar to Prothane)

It all rolls on Jeep Ravine (wrangler) Aluminum wheels with 31x10.5x15 Goodyear Duratracs.

Weight is fairly low (though probably not by JeepSpeed standards). It's a 5spd, manual windows, no AC, vinyl floor. It does have a JCR front bumper/Dirtbound rear. I'd guess somewhere just over 3000lbs.

As for shock lengths:

I will have to unbolt the shocks to measure full droop.

At right height, with OEM stem/bar pin mounts: 19"

Distance between uncompressed OEM bump stop and pad: 3.75"

Assuming the OEM bump stop compresses 50% (I have no idea if that is a reasonable assumption): ~4.5" of upward travel is possible.

19-4.5 gives a compressed shock length of 14.5".

When I put the new shocks in, I'll probably be doing something about bump stops - maybe the prothanes I've seen written up with good review. That might increase my compressed length by a bit.

I am limited however by the bar pin lower and shaft upper mounts. As I understand it, any conversion short of fabbing shock hoops will only make my compressed length shorter.

Looking at the tables for Doetsch and Bilstein it would appear you are right. At a 14" compressed length a short body Bilstein permits 10" of travel while the Doetsch only 8".

 

[doetschshocks]

Well we thought we would chime in and educate those who have question about our quality and product line.

We make several levels (styles) of shocks for all types of use. Doetsch has been in business for 35 years we offer the two styles of shocks (Twin Tube and Monotube).

Twin Tube: (White Shock Non-rebuildable) Is used for low heat (non-racing) applications. Such as Rock Crawling and recreational Jeeping as well as stock replacement.

These also come in (Aluminum Rebuildable) and Remote Reserviors can be added as well. These are better then your typical $39.00 Shock because they have a higher temperature oil in them and are more affordable than a Racing Shock. The benefit for a less expensive rebuildable shock is the low cost to service (rebuild) and replace a bent shaft. Typically it is a approximately half the cost of a replacement shock. These are a very good option for the 4x4 Truck Market and are know for a great ride quality.

Let's be clear, you don't use a shovel for a rake. We would not recommend a twin tube shock for long desert races, because those application develop between 325 to over 400 degrees of heat into the shock. Most common seals are good up to approximately 225 degrees before they start to lose form (fail). We do know that certain short events do allow the use of the less expensive shocks as the short times of running would not increase the temperature much beyond 225 degrees. The Doetsch Prerunner 8XXX 1 5/8 Bore Shock is very popular for its durability and is in the $55.00 to $60.00 range.

The reason why you do not see alot of Doetsch Product on Race Vehicles is we have not sponsored anyone for over 20 years. We do race our own Trucks in some of the long events so that we can test the durability of the larger bore Monotube Shocks that we make in house, such as 2.5.

We also supply Tube Tube, Gas and Monotube Shocks for other Companies who put them in their kits. We do not have control of the bore size and valving that they choose. They pick the shocks that they put in there kits. They sometime supply a shock in there kit that we would not agree with. We also understand that they are tring to supply an affordable kit to take to a competitive market place ie, ebay etc..

Monotubes:

ALL Montubes are Hand Assembled in the Doetsch facility in California. We manufacture 2.0 and 2.5 All Travels from 5" to 16" Smooth Body and Coil Overs (all have Remote Reservior option). 2.5 Monotube would be the recommended shock for high temperature applications. All Shocks have Seal options as well as Oil options for there intended use.

We recommend the 2.5 with Reservior for this Jeep.

Doetsch also services all major brands of Shocks for UTV, Motorcycle (Forks) and Trucks.

 

[xcm]

If you put all the effort into being an engineer, that you do in finding excuses for peoples arguments against DT, you could afford a set of foxes!

 

[Demonoid369]

Well we thought we would chime in and educate those who have question about our quality and product line.

Thank you for chiming in, best thing a company can do it get involved personally and help educate us.
Would you be able to give us a cutaway view of your shocks? As cal has said, there are many other companies that have cutaway pics of a shock to showcase their product

 

[cometcyclonemk]

Doetsch: Thank you for joining the conversation! As Demonoid stated, nothing better than a company willing to get involved with the community.

I'll second the request for a cut-away image, or even a picture of one of your rebuildables disassembled.

Additionally - can you provide specs for your 2" and 2.5" shocks? Extended, compressed and travel lengths? What would you say is the deciding point between a 2" and a 2.5" shock?

XCM: Great work living up to expectations!

 

[doetschshocks]

Thank you for the questions

1. Yes we can provide a photo of a dis-assembled shock in both 2.0 and 2.5 we will also include the pistons available to achieve linear, progressive, digressive valving.

2. I can send you standard Length chart, also note we can make lengths in between what is shown on the chart. As we know sometimes it is difficult to get fitment on stock type vehicles with large shock absorbers.

Will supply photos middle of next week.

Thank you and wish everyone a great 4th of July!!!!

 

[cal]

The reason why you do not see alot of Doetsch Product on Race Vehicles is we have not sponsored anyone for over 20 years. We do race our own Trucks in some of the long events so that we can test the durability of the larger bore Monotube Shocks that we make in house, such as 2.5.

This point doesn't sit quite right with me. If the information others have posted in this thread is correct, your retail price is cheaper than my sponsored price on Bilstein. If it were entirely lack of sponsorship, budget racers should still be running Doetsch should they not?

I think it is as much perception, and the perception as people that I have worked with hold seems to echo what I have said in this thread.

That said, I'm really interested to see what you guys have to show here.