Sprintex Supercharger hits 12 pounds Boost!!

[CobraMarty]

Even 6.57" / 2.125" at 4850rpm(where my auto shifts at) = 14,995rpm of SC.

The continuous maximum recommended rpm of Sprintex 210 SC is 15,000rpm.

 

[Talyn]

How is that head gasket holding up?

 

[CobraMarty]

After 3 tries.

No problem here.

 

[bpas328xi]

Everyone knows the stock head gasket goes at 12-13psi. No surprises there. Easy fix. :repair: Just another excuse to UPGRADE!!!!

 

[bpas328xi]

Yes Yan. I blew the stock head gasket from running too much boost. It happens. This is why they sell "upgraded" head gaskets. It comes with the territory of running boost.

And so much for my racejeep build thread... Oh well. :explosion

 

[kastein]

Seriously, grow up. The tossing back and forth of insults and then the relentless thread reporting pointing out violations.. you arent innocent here.

It got old a long time ago..

agree... you can only cry wolf so many times before everyone starts either rolling their eyes or just straight up ignoring the newest flood of marginal, barely-if-at-all-justified thread reports. Marty, I can't decide if you are just thin skinned or intentionally trolling for responses then trying to get people in trouble here.

Either way, you guys need to grow the hell up and knock it off. All of the moderators (well, I can't speak for the others, but... DAMN!) are sick and tired of this.

 

[O-Gauge Steamer]

A note on reasonable compressor speeds:
Engine RPM Compressor 57mm Pulley W/ ATI Damper Just the ATI
(KRPM) RPM Pulley & 57mm Pulley Damper
1.500 3.825 4.250 4.380 3.942
2.000 5.100 5.667 5.840 5.256
2.500 6.375 7.083 7.300 6.570
3.000 7.650 8.500 8.760 7.885
Assumptions are:
Stock Damper 6.375" diameter, ATI 6.5707" diameter. Numbers provided to me, not my direct measurements. Also, speeds have been rounded to the nearest whole. A departure for me, let me assure you...

Why a 57mm? The Alternator is 55mm. At least my stock from Jeep one is. Plus, according to Gates, 55mm is about as tight a diameter as is safe to operate the belt on a DD vehicle. So, why not a 55mm on the compressor? It should be just as good as the Alternator, right? I do not believe this to be the case. The Alternator has a full 180 degrees of belt wrap plus, the amount of torque required to turn it even under full load should be less than what the compressor demands depending on the Alternator's rated output. I run a 190A so it draws a bit of power under load...

What must be kept in mind is that although a rotary screw compressor intrinsically develops less heat as it compresses the air (as compared to a Roots type compressor), it nonetheless does heat the charge.

Another consideration, to be taken seriously, are the oil seals in the gear case and the gears themselves. With the higher RPM, given the heat in the bearings and pressures involved, the seals are going to be placed under undue stress. This is not my opinion, this is straight from Sprintex Engineering. The oil level in the gear case will require extra attention.

One solution would be to use a nozzle in the fill location to spray engine oil on the gears and use the drain location to drain back to the pan. A ton of work for a questionable gain.

With regards to the smaller compressor drive pulley, Sprintex is not saying don't do it They are saying be very careful so as to not run it out of oil. A reasonable request for sure.

The bearings are sealed units in all of the Superchargers that I am aware of. Unlike Turbocharger bearings that run in engine oil.

I have recently installed an oil separator into the PCV line which is removing a rather amazing amount of "stuff". This in an engine that has less than 139k miles on it and is in good nick.

With the addition of Forced Induction, regardless of the compressor type, or manufacturer, ring blow-by becomes more pronounced. It is always there, that is why the PCV exists... The only way to control it , IMO, is to rebuild the engine and use perfect circle piston rings. This same issue exists with engines operating at high compression ratios. The rings are unable to contain the entire pressure.

With the oil removed from the air charge, I was able to add back in a total of 1.5 degrees of timing. This is a Very Old School solution. For those who might care, I use a Moroso part. And the only place I could find to mount it on my Heep is the header panel near the PCM.

It is my opinion that the math needs to be done for regardless of what compressor is being used. The mini guys seriously over speed their compressors so they short shift to compensate.

It is also my opinion that running boost levels in excess of 10 pounds requires an intercooler be installed. My opinion is based upon near enough to 5 decades of forced induction experience. Can you run the higher boost levels? Yes, you can as long as the timing is pulled back. You can, however, reach a point where you have pulled so much timing back that the gains start to disappear.

A final note here, if the values that have been reported to me are incorrect, feel free to redo the math for yourselves. It is not difficult, just time consuming. Personally, I let Excel do the math...

btw,
2.125in = 53.975mm

 

[O-Gauge Steamer]

So.......

Just for fun, plus I decided that I really should not trust anyone's measurements...

I measured the pulley on my Sprintex compressor. The compressor is currently exactly as it was when it shipped from Australia. The only changes I have made to it were to add a port for the IAT sensor (I needed one more port than it came with) and the 68mm F&B Throttle Body.

It has a 58mm pulley on it. Called my friends at Sprintex and they measured the pulleys on the very few kits that are left.

All of those measured at 58mm also.

I wonder, how did a 63.5mm pulley wound up on Mr. Marty's compressor?

 

[bpas328xi]

So.......

Just for fun, plus I decided that I really should not trust anyone's measurements...

I measured the pulley on my Sprintex compressor. The compressor is currently exactly as it was when it shipped from Australia. The only changes I have made to it were to add a port for the IAT sensor (I needed one more port than it came with) and the 68mm F&B Throttle Body.

It has a 58mm pulley on it. Called my friends at Sprintex and they measured the pulleys on the very few kits that are left.

All of those measured at 58mm also.

I wonder, how did a 63.5mm pulley wound up on Mr. Marty's compressor?

That is a very good question.... I measured the pulley myself. What I think happened is that there was a revision change in the superchargers (Rimmer had old stock). I ordered a smaller pulley from Sprintex themselves and it was of a different style to the one that came with my supercharger. However, that pulley is in their pictures for the 210...

Weird. I don't remember the size of the Sprintex pulley, so I will try and dig all of my pullies out of wherever they're hiding and measure them all (including the one on the heep, just to make sure).

Here are some old pics of the sprintex pulley (left) vs. the pulley that came on my supercharger (right). Ignore the extra length and girth on the far side of the "stock" pulley. It's a spacer that comes off.

Here you can really see the differences in the two pullies.

 

[O-Gauge Steamer]

What is really interesting is the the XJ kit never actually made it into production. The 25 kits that came to the States were, technically, pre-production prototypes. Sprintex was using them to gauge the U.S. market (not so good as it turns out... XJ Folk are cheap!) prior to committing a large run.

25 units is not a large run for these folks... They usual make runs in the hundreds to get the price breaks from the foundry. It only makes sense.

The current TJ kit uses a 54mm pulley. I had my contact look to see. The 4mm difference is not really worth the effort for me to change the pulley. A larger Throttle body gives a better bang for the buck. I know mine did. Took me from just over 5lbs to a just a tad under 7.5lbs. The opening in the Sprintex casting is either 62mm or 66mm, quite frankly, I do not remember that detail. But it is in my 68mm TB thread. I documented the upgrade. What I do remember is that it took perhaps 30 minutes of work with files to open it up for the F&B TB I purchased from F&B.

I make this offer to anyone seriously interested in the Sprintex Supercharger, I will back channel all I know to you folks. I stepped out of due to getting tired of dodging the pot shots.

If someone would care to open a new, dedicated, ZERO BS thread on Forced Induction, I will participate. There is no reason you should not benefit from my 50 years of experience.

But, if the BS starts back up, I'm out. Again. Let's keep it civil. It is inevitable that someone will disagree with someone else. Just be polite about it and agree to disagree. If someone does not care to follow your lead, let them lag behind. Their loss, not yours.

No time for fools.

I will give fair warnings:
F&B TBs are not cheap.
Forced Induction is not cheap.
Building any sort of serious horsepower is not cheap.
Just accept it...

 

[bpas328xi]

I agree with pretty much everything stated above.

With the small exception of me having a 70mm F&B TB.

These superchargers love to breathe!!!!

 

[Alexia]

What is really interesting is the the XJ kit never actually made it into production. The 25 kits that came to the States were, technically, pre-production prototypes. Sprintex was using them to gauge the U.S. market (not so good as it turns out... XJ Folk are cheap!) prior to committing a large run.

Damn, I was going to buy one of those too!

 

[O-Gauge Steamer]

I agree with pretty much everything stated above.

With the small exception of me having a 70mm F&B TB.

These superchargers love to breathe!!!!

Knowing what I now know, I would use the 70mm TB. I did not go that way (even though F&B recommended it...) as I was not sure there was enough material on the top of the Sprintex intake to be safe after removal for the larger TB.

There would be. Not by much, but there would be. I would also have F&B make the TB shorter in height. My hood vents are sort of in the way. There would be no issues with a stock hood.

Tubing size between the TB and the filter. F&B recommended 3" and that is what I use. I ran the residual vacuum test after installation and I have no air flow impedance. They recommend 3" for the 70mm TB also...

For those not familiar with this Old School Test...

Use a vacuum gauge to measure how much, if any, vacuum is left in the intake system at WOT. Ideally, the manifold should be at atmospheric pressure. Rule of thumb says that less than 3"Hg is acceptable. It was this test that drove the TB change. My intake system is at atmosphere at WOT.

If you find vacuum in the intake maifold at WOT, remove the air filter and run again. If the vacuum drops to zero, the filter and or the combination of filter and the connecting tubing is suspect.

I run Spectre products. Was way less expensive to buy a couple of elbows and the piece for the PCV connection that is was to buy their custom part. For a filter, I am running one with a 4" connection necked down to 3". Like I said, zero residual vacuum. Is it the best it can be? Probably not. It works and that is good enough...

So, why do I say that I would go with the 70mm TB? Good question, that is. One of the biggest benefit I have derived from the change is how the AW4 now operates. Here, in Colorado Springs, we have a official altitude of 6,035 feet. This is at the airport, on the south east side of the city. Not on the North End where I live. The altitude at my house is much closer to 6,800. We have enough difference in altitude that it will snow at my place while it is just rains at out friends place on the south side.

Needless to say, we have hills. Lots of them too. Hills that prior to the TB change caused the transmission to drop all the way down into third are now taken in OD, TC locked at two pounds or so of boost. It drives better than stock and I am running P285/75s with 4.56 gears.

So, either a 68mm or a 70mm TB will work fine at this boost level. The cost from F&B is exactly the same as they machine them out of a chunk of billet to order. This is why they can make it shorter is needs be. Great people by the way. They supply TBs for SC manufacturers so have experience with sizing. Willing to talk with and help out to boot.

For those going north of 7.5 pounds, the vacuum test would need to be done. For those with stroked engines and forced induction, you can research to see what size TBs are being used on V-8 kits in that displacement.

Do not choke your compressor as it will not thank you for it.

Cheers!
OGS

 

[Boostwerks.com]

Good to see you back OGS!

 

[Shorty]

Good to see you back OGS!

X2^^ :wave:

 

[O-Gauge Steamer]

Well, gosh... Gee Willikers fellas, didn't know you cared. I spent a few, not-so-quality, weeks making an unsuccessful attempt at dying. Then the at home "recovery" period. Good news is, the next time this disease takes me to Hospital will be the last.

I do think that we should open a dedicated, no BS thread for Forced Induction. For the most part, it does not matter how the pressurized air charge is delivered to the intake valve. The timing and cooling aspects are identical.

And in the spirit of transparency, I actually prefer a turbocharger to a supercharger. Each has different advantages over the other but... The mechanical simplicity of the Turbo appeals to me.

So, anyone care to open up a thread to act as a clearing house? This is either the third or fourth time I have proposed the idea. I do not feel it to be appropriate for me to open it given the detractors I have. One of which has made peace and I give him full credit for that. Thanks. You know who you are and I thank you most kindly.

What I would recommend is that things be kept on a professional basis. Disagreements are going to happen. Just keep it civil. If it were possible to stop an individual from posting on a given thread, I would suggest that be the "punishment" for throwing mud, not start a name calling fest.

As for my experience with FI, it started in 1960 when my Dad, Brother and I replaced the tired old flattie V-8 in the '40 Ford Woody Wagon we had with a freshly rebuilt flattie originally from a '53 Mercury. We replaced the iron heads with Edelbrock aluminium heads and made a few other internal changes. The engine had a 7.2:1 compression ratio so was a prime target for a compressor. We used a SCOT roots type blower with three deuce carbs, with progressive linkage. Back in the day, there were shops that specialized in Distributor repair. You did not throw it away and put in new, you repaired... Which is one of the reasons you can find cars today that are close to 100 years old with the original dizzys in them. Anyway, we had the shop alter the advance mechanism to provide vacuum advance and pressure retard. Not the exact science we find ourselves practicing these days as you "fine tuned" the timing by replacing the springs that held the advance plate in the neutral position. One set for vacuum, another for pressure.

"Fine tune" Sort of a laugh looking back now.

How much boost did we run? Well, keep in mind that this was 1960 Sunnyvale California and that fuel with an Octane of 102 was in the pumps. Was called "Ethyl" Why was it called ethyl? Don't Know. But it did allow us to push 15 pounds into that 255 cubic inch (4.178 Litres) motor. Sort of, perked it up you might say.

I have been hooked ever since. My Dad had been installing compressors since before the War. That would have been WWII guys. Keep in mind that compressors were the performance addition of the '20s and the '30s. Usually, they were draw through systems. Carbs sat on top of the compressors. If that sounds like it might be a tad dangerous if the intake leaks, you would be right. When you are dealing with a flat head engine, there is only so much that can be done. Getting high compression is not one of them so... add a compressor to do the same thing.

In 1973, I assisted my Dorm room Mate (we were USAF at the time) in installing a Turbo into his '72 Datsun (Nissan for those not old enough to remember the change...) 240Z. We used a no longer flight certifiable Turbocharger (Garrett was founded in 1936 btw...) from one of the Base Flying Club Aircraft.

It was sold to use for it's worth as scrap metal. I think we paid a good $5.00 for it. We removed the stock 2 Hitachi single throat carb intake and installed a Weber three DCOE (side draft 2bbl) setup. Build a box for the carbs to set in and that we could then pressurize. From there, it was easy. Rebuild the distributor, plumb the thing together and go. What made it easy was that the head was a SOHC cross flow design.

Lately, well better than a year ago now, I straightened out a Sprintex installation on a '95 YJ. Rimmer did the primary installation and totally buggerd up the fuel and ignition. We installed an AEM F/IC6 and 36 pound injectors. If I had it to do over, I would use 33 pound injectors...

So, there is a couple of examples. Learn by doing, eh?

At the end of the day, it comes down to whether or not you are willing to spend the money. Even a system built out of "scrap" parts like the Datsun I did will be spendy. For starters, you do not, IMHO, install a used compressor with doing a complete rebuild. New bearings and seals must be fitted. Bearings are always the weak point of any compressor. Superchargers need to have their rotors examined for wear. Turbines need the impellers examined. Standard maintenance really. Safer to be sure than to take the chance something will let go and ruin your day.

So, what do you guys think? Is it worth the attempt? Get involved in building "variable displacement" engines? That is what FI is. You are altering your Air Pumps volume... Essentially, building a bigger engine that is the same size.

Sort like a TARDIS really...

 

[FlexdXJ]

Good to see you back OGS!

This. Usually I lose interest half way through your posts. Not because they aren't informative but because i have no clue what the hell you're talking about! Welcome back good sir! Glad to hear you dodged death to come back and grace us with your knowledge!

 

[boostamante]

I drive at 4850rpm all day, everyday. Keeps the valves clean and all. It also makes my whistle tip work better.

Well, gosh... Gee Willikers fellas, didn't know you cared. I spent a few, not-so-quality, weeks making an unsuccessful attempt at dying. Then the at home "recovery" period. Good news is, the next time this disease takes me to Hospital will be the last.

I do think that we should open a dedicated, no BS thread for Forced Induction. For the most part, it does not matter how the pressurized air charge is delivered to the intake valve. The timing and cooling aspects are identical.

And in the spirit of transparency, I actually prefer a turbocharger to a supercharger. Each has different advantages over the other but... The mechanical simplicity of the Turbo appeals to me.

So, anyone care to open up a thread to act as a clearing house? This is either the third or fourth time I have proposed the idea. I do not feel it to be appropriate for me to open it given the detractors I have. One of which has made peace and I give him full credit for that. Thanks. You know who you are and I thank you most kindly.

What I would recommend is that things be kept on a professional basis. Disagreements are going to happen. Just keep it civil. If it were possible to stop an individual from posting on a given thread, I would suggest that be the "punishment" for throwing mud, not start a name calling fest.

As for my experience with FI, it started in 1960 when my Dad, Brother and I replaced the tired old flattie V-8 in the '40 Ford Woody Wagon we had with a freshly rebuilt flattie originally from a '53 Mercury. We replaced the iron heads with Edelbrock aluminium heads and made a few other internal changes. The engine had a 7.2:1 compression ratio so was a prime target for a compressor. We used a SCOT roots type blower with three deuce carbs, with progressive linkage. Back in the day, there were shops that specialized in Distributor repair. You did not throw it away and put in new, you repaired... Which is one of the reasons you can find cars today that are close to 100 years old with the original dizzys in them. Anyway, we had the shop alter the advance mechanism to provide vacuum advance and pressure retard. Not the exact science we find ourselves practicing these days as you "fine tuned" the timing by replacing the springs that held the advance plate in the neutral position. One set for vacuum, another for pressure.

"Fine tune" Sort of a laugh looking back now.

How much boost did we run? Well, keep in mind that this was 1960 Sunnyvale California and that fuel with an Octane of 102 was in the pumps. Was called "Ethyl" Why was it called ethyl? Don't Know. But it did allow us to push 15 pounds into that 255 cubic inch (4.178 Litres) motor. Sort of, perked it up you might say.

I have been hooked ever since. My Dad had been installing compressors since before the War. That would have been WWII guys. Keep in mind that compressors were the performance addition of the '20s and the '30s. Usually, they were draw through systems. Carbs sat on top of the compressors. If that sounds like it might be a tad dangerous if the intake leaks, you would be right. When you are dealing with a flat head engine, there is only so much that can be done. Getting high compression is not one of them so... add a compressor to do the same thing.

In 1973, I assisted my Dorm room Mate (we were USAF at the time) in installing a Turbo into his '72 Datsun (Nissan for those not old enough to remember the change...) 240Z. We used a no longer flight certifiable Turbocharger (Garrett was founded in 1936 btw...) from one of the Base Flying Club Aircraft.

It was sold to use for it's worth as scrap metal. I think we paid a good $5.00 for it. We removed the stock 2 Hitachi single throat carb intake and installed a Weber three DCOE (side draft 2bbl) setup. Build a box for the carbs to set in and that we could then pressurize. From there, it was easy. Rebuild the distributor, plumb the thing together and go. What made it easy was that the head was a SOHC cross flow design.

Lately, well better than a year ago now, I straightened out a Sprintex installation on a '95 YJ. Rimmer did the primary installation and totally buggerd up the fuel and ignition. We installed an AEM F/IC6 and 36 pound injectors. If I had it to do over, I would use 33 pound injectors...

So, there is a couple of examples. Learn by doing, eh?

At the end of the day, it comes down to whether or not you are willing to spend the money. Even a system built out of "scrap" parts like the Datsun I did will be spendy. For starters, you do not, IMHO, install a used compressor with doing a complete rebuild. New bearings and seals must be fitted. Bearings are always the weak point of any compressor. Superchargers need to have their rotors examined for wear. Turbines need the impellers examined. Standard maintenance really. Safer to be sure than to take the chance something will let go and ruin your day.

So, what do you guys think? Is it worth the attempt? Get involved in building "variable displacement" engines? That is what FI is. You are altering your Air Pumps volume... Essentially, building a bigger engine that is the same size.

Sort like a TARDIS really...

Enjoyed your read, i tried to picture all of what you wrote

as for your suggestion to the Forced induction Thread, i'd like to see it done.

Hang in there a bit longer will ya? I've yet to turbo my jeep and im sure i'll have lots of questions when it comes time to do it.

 

[CobraMarty]

Intake port squeaky clean, zero carbon build up, not bad for an engine with 160k+ miles. That 7th injector and meth injection really cleans the port.

 

[CobraMarty]

Finally got around to pulling the head. Above is picture of the intake port.

Found where the head gasket 'popped' into the water jacket on the #1 cylinder and pressurized the cooling system.
Head and block are undamaged. Upgrading to big valve ported 505 head.
#6 had a broken/missing spark plug electrode.