"I'M ANGRY!!!!!!!!!!"

[Eagle]

The spot I recall most vividly is the cliff that was scaled -- at night -- by Rogers Rangers to take out a German gun emplacement.

Unbelieveable.

[EDIT]Wait -- It wasn't Rogers Rangers, that was an earlier war. Gotta fire up the memory banks -- this may take awhile[/EDIT]

There's a lot of history that wasn't in the history books I read in high school and college. And I suspect there's a lot LESS in the sanitized, politically-correct textbooks they have in public schools these days.

 

[Z22_Z33]

More to the point, in your initial post (in fact, the first two or three in this thread) you made reference to some UNIDENTIFIED achievement as a justification for making statements that could be interpreted as dissing our service personnel.

I didn’t know that what I asked could be seen that way. Honestly I don’t think I see it that way. But I'll remember to stick to the questions, and take the bs people hand out to me, when asking a simple question, that has a complex answer. I just wanted to skip the whole bs thing, by giving my comment. I thought it better to stick that in there, rather then just say lets stick the question, but if I say that no one will bother to answer my question, but rather call me some liberal ass hippie or how I should be shot.

About those history books, I remember my US history book. An entire chapter a large portion was devoted to Vietnam more about the politics though but not in any depth. Yet only 2 small paragraphs talked about D-day. Just where we landed and that it was the largest amphibious assault, nothing else. Very little was talked about WWII, I think maybe only a few pages. Yet there really hasn’t been anything as defining as WWII and the years after was to this country. But that’s off topic.
What am I talking about, "thats off topic?"

 

[red91]

I didn’t know that what I asked could be seen that way. When asking a simple question, that has a complex answer. I just wanted to skip the whole bs thing, by giving my comment. I thought it better to stick that in there, rather then just say lets stick the question, but if I say that no one will bother to answer my question.

This was the first msitake that I pointed out to you yesterday. You asked a question, and then commented on it. You should have waited for others to comment on it first, since by your commenting on your own question you invited what you may have percieved as an attack, and what actually turn into a beat up "Z" day. However you'll notice a FEW that didn't pile on. Remember them when that time comes. Alot of they guy 'round here will answer any question you have. Be sure to state your questions properly.

About those history books, I remember my US history book. An entire chapter a large portion was devoted to Vietnam. Yet only 2 small paragraphs talked about D-day. Just where we landed and that it was the largest amphibious assault, nothing else. Very little was talked about WWII, I think maybe only a few pages.

This is because revisionists want you to believe that there are only BAD wars. WW2 was very justified, it was a horrible loss of life, but...it provided most of us with the oportunities that we have today. Imagine if Hitler had had his way. They'd also like you to think the holocaust didn't happen, but when members of your family are rounded up and killed it leaves some with the mindset that these things " just should not be discussed."

You need to go to the library and read about some of these things. Korea which I'm almost sure you didn't cover was a very "hard" war to fight. If you want some hardcore reading on what happened to many read up on both those wars.

SHALOM.

 

[Fergie]

What I remember form both my Granddads is the sotries they alsways told about the good times they had with the men of their units.

My one GD was a member of the 23rd Armored Engineering Bat. He landed at Normandy in the first wave and was one of the men that got to carry the Bangalores. Later on, he was in the Plt that got to set-up the pontoon bridges across the rivers. their unit had one of the highest casualty rates.

My favorite picture of him is him sitting on an old harley in France. One mean looking sonofagun, but DAMN! he was younger than me.

My other GD was a medic attached to a SeaBee unit that was one of the first on land at Guadal Canal. The pictures he shared are freakin horrific.

Glory be to both of them, and every generation of Vets we have.

Fergie

 

[red91]

What I remember form both my Granddads is the sotries they alsways told about the good times they had with the men of their units.

My one GD was a member of the 23rd Armored Engineering Bat. He landed at Normandy in the first wave and was one of the men that got to carry the Bangalores. Later on, he was in the Plt that got to set-up the pontoon bridges across the rivers. their unit had one of the highest casualty rates.

My favorite picture of him is him sitting on an old harley in France. One mean looking sonofagun, but DAMN! he was younger than me.

My other GD was a medic attached to a SeaBee unit that was one of the first on land at Guadal Canal. The pictures he shared are freakin horrific.

Glory be to both of them, and every generation of Vets we have.

Fergie

You Grandfather and many like him were forced to grow up before their time. Now you see 40 yr old guys that act like their mentaly 16, and they are. I don't think we'll see a breed like our grandparents again. Or at least not soon... :tear:

 

[Kevin]

The National Museum of the Marine Corps. is currently under construction in Quantico, VA. My company worked on the design and I can't wait to see the finished product in a few years. It will be a real tribute to all of the Marines, past, present and future.

 

[Eagle]

This is because revisionists want you to believe that there are only BAD wars. WW2 was very justified, it was a horrible loss of life, but...it provided most of us with the oportunities that we have today. Imagine if Hitler had had his way.

I can't be certain without looking at the text books, but from comments I've seen on other forums it appears to me that current history/poli-sci textbboks and/or teachers aren't even taking the trouble to be very accurate. How many of you know what was the last war the United States fought in?









Those who said WW2 go to the head of the class -- the rest of you start reading. Under the Constitution of the United States, only the Congress has the power to declare war, and the last time the Congress declared war was WW2. Korea, Vietnam, Panama, Greneda, Gulf "War" 1, Afghanistan, Iraq, and the Balkans were NOT wars. They were (are) various types of "police actions," "peace keeping actions," and other linguistic constructs, but legally and technically they were not wars regardless of what the politicians try to tell you. It's very discouraging to see how few people actually know and understand this.

They'd also like you to think the holocaust didn't happen, but when members of your family are rounded up and killed it leaves some with the mindset that these things " just should not be discussed."

True, but it also leaves others with the mindset that these things MUST be discussed, in order to help ensure that they never happen again.

"Those who fail to learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them." (Wish I could remember who said that.)

 

[8Mud]

Sorry for jacking the post, but what do people mean when they say that they support the troops, like in what way? How?
What about the people who say they dont support the troops or war, same question to them.
1.Are there any people who support the troops but not the war?
2.Or is supporting the troops the same as supporting the war?
3.Is not supporting the war the same as not supporting the troops

Ques 1. Probably many people who can empathize with, being in a hot (or cold), dirty (muddy) place, where the people talk and act funny (social shock) and occasionaly shot at you, try to blow you up, shoot rockets at you and set booby traps. Sleepless nights, living out of a bag and a box for months, often terminal constipation from eating dry rations, nose bleeds from the dust, bugs chewing on you all the time anything that doesn´t itch, is probably hurting. "Long periods of boredom, interspersed with moments of stark terror".
Ques 2. Can any empathetic person, not support the troops? Supporting the war is another thing? Public debate and the media, can empower the opposition and prolong hostilities, seems like common sense to me. Have heard, I don´t know how many times, X number of Iraqi civilians, were killed today, X number of American soldiers were killed and/or wounded. To listen to the media, the war hasn´t resulted in the death of one verified bad guy since it´s inseption. Some people are against war, period, some religions are agianst, medical intervention, period.
Ques 3. Have to use an analogy, the troops deal with the sickness, the doctors diagnose the problem and recommend a treatment. Guess the possible treatments range all the way from leaving it alone (let it run it´s course or ignore it), to destroying the patient before the sickness spreads. You can have an oppinion on the treatment, but dumping on the people designated to provide the treatment, is counter productive. Waffleling, wavering, changing the doctor in the middle of the treatment or many other counterproductive tacks, usually just prolong the agony. I often equate war, as a surgery, without anaesthesia, performed while squating in a ditch full of Shiete. Easy to sit in a nice room, comfortable and detached and second guess the process.

 

[red91]

I can't be certain without looking at the text books, but from comments I've seen on other forums it appears to me that current history/poli-sci textbboks and/or teachers aren't even taking the trouble to be very accurate. How many of you know what was the last war the United States fought in?









Those who said WW2 go to the head of the class -- the rest of you start reading. Under the Constitution of the United States, only the Congress has the power to declare war, and the last time the Congress declared war was WW2. Korea, Vietnam, Panama, Greneda, Gulf "War" 1, Afghanistan, Iraq, and the Balkans were NOT wars. They were (are) various types of "police actions," "peace keeping actions," and other linguistic constructs, but legally and technically they were not wars regardless of what the politicians try to tell you. It's very discouraging to see how few people actually know and understand this.


True, but it also leaves others with the mindset that these things MUST be discussed, in order to help ensure that they never happen again.

"Those who fail to learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them." (Wish I could remember who said that.)

eagle...

just 'cuase congress didn't say the above mentioned were a war doesn't make it so. But your right I do remember Korea being called a " conflict".
This politically correct legal speak reminds me of George Orwell.

and the quote came from Winston Churchill.

 

[Darky]

Ques 3. Have to use an analogy, the troops deal with the sickness, the doctors diagnose the problem and recommend a treatment. Guess the possible treatments range all the way from leaving it alone (let it run it´s course or ignore it), to destroying the patient before the sickness spreads. You can have an oppinion on the treatment, but dumping on the people designated to provide the treatment, is counter productive. Waffleling, wavering, changing the doctor in the middle of the treatment or many other counterproductive tacks, usually just prolong the agony. I often equate war, as a surgery, without anaesthesia, performed while squating in a ditch full of Shiete. Easy to sit in a nice room, comfortable and detached and second guess the process.

This is kind of my view as well. If you don't agree with the war that's ok, but I think its in the best interests of our troops to keep it down a bit until they return. then go ahead and voice your discontent with the politicians involved. But please wait til the troops are home. I read on this website that General Vo (or something along those lines-I'd look it up, but we're having network problems so not all websites want to come up and that's one right now) had said after the Vietnam War (yes, Eagle I know its not officially a war, but I say it is ) that if it weren't for all the civil unrest being caused here at home, North Vietnam had actually been considering surrender. You can take that as you may since its from a biased (anti-Kerry) website or because its from an enemy of the States, but its hard to twist words like that...

 

[ladywolf]

blacksport, i read that somewhere also. currently i'm reading a book called "flyboys" about the a/f in WWII. Really good book so far. What i think is really ironic is that president roosevelt actually complimented the Japanese on their sneak attack against the russians early on, then they acted all shocked when they did the same thing in Pearl Harbor.

My grandfather will not talk about WWII. He was wounded in the crossing of the Po river in Italy with the 10th Mtn. His dad was in WWI with 1ID, and grandpa also lost a brother in the Korean conflict with 1st Cav, so I come from just a little bit of a military family. If anyone even thought about disrespecting a vet, they'd be in a world of hurt. They protected our rights, now I'm going to protect theirs. I've never disrespected a vet, and i never will.

 

[grandpaxj]

This is in response to Z22Z33 who doesn't understand why we do the things we do. These are the words of my wife.
This is the BEST explanation of WHY we are AMERICA, the Home of the Brave and the Land of the FREE!

The other day, my nine year old son wanted to know why we were at war. My husband looked at our son and then looked at me. My husband and I were in the Army during the Gulf War and we would be honored to serve and defend our country again today. I knew that my husband would give him a good explanation.

MY husband thought for a few minutes and then told my son to go and stand in our front living room window. He told him: "Son, stand there and tell me what you see?"

"I see trees and cars and our neighbors houses." he replied.

"OK, now I want you to pretend that our house and our yard is the United States of America and you are Preisdent Bush."

Our son giggled and said, "OK."

"Now son, I want you to look out the window and pretend that every house and yard on this block is a different country" my husband said.

"OK dad, I'm pretending."

"Now I want you to stand there and look out the window and see that man come out of his house with his wife and he has her by the hair and is hitting her. You see her bleeding and crying. He hits her in the face, he throws her to the ground, then he starts to kick her to death. Their children run out and are afraid to stop him, they are crying, they are watching this but do nothing because they are kids and are afraid of their father. You see all of this son. . . .what do you do?"

"Dad?"

"What do you do son?"

"I call the police, Dad."

"OK. Pretend that the police are the United Nations and they take your call, listen to what you know and saw but they refuse to help. What do you do then son?"

"Dad, but the polioce are supposed to help!" My son started to whine.

"They son't want to son, because they say that it is not their place or your place to get involved and that you should stay out of it," my husband says.

"But Dad. . .he killed her!!" my son exclaims.

"I know he did. . .but the police tell you to stay out of it. Now I want you to look out that window and pretend you see our neighbor who you're pretending is Saddam turn around and do the same thing to his children."

"Daddy. . . he kills them?"

"Yes son, he does. What do you do?"

"Well, if the police don't want to help. I will go and ask my next door neighbor to help me stop him." our son says.

"Son, our next door neighbor sees what is happening and refuses to get involved as well. He refuses to open the door and help you stop him," my husband says.

"But Dad, I NEED help!! I can't stop him by myself!!"

"WHAT DO YOU DO SON?"

Our son starts to cry.

"OK, no one wants to help you, the man across the street saw you ask for help and saw that no one would help you stop him. He stands taller and puffs out his chest. Guess what he does next son?"

"What Daddy?"

"He walks across the street to the old ladies house and breaks down her door and drags her out, steals all her stuff and sets her house on fire and then. . .he kills her. He turns around and sees you standing in the window and laughs at you. WHAT DO YOU DO?"

"Daddy. . ."

"WHAT DO YOU DO?"

Our son is crying and he looks down adn he whispers, "I close the blinds, Daddy."

"My husband looks at our son with tears in his eyes and asks him. . . "Why?"

"Because Daddy. . . .the police are supposed to help. . .people who needs it. . . .and they won't help. . . .You always say that neighbors are supposed to HELP neighbors, but they won't help either. . .they won't help me stop him. . .I'm afraid . . . .I can't do it by myself. Daddy. . . .I can't look out my window and just watch him do all these terrible things and. . .and. . . .do nothing. . .so. . . .I'm just going to close the blinds. . . .so I can't see what he's doing. . . . . . . .and I'm going to pretend that it is not happening."

I start to cry.

My husband looks at our nine year old son standing in the window, looking pitiful and ashamed at his answers to my husbands questions and he tells him. . . . "Son"

"Yes, Daddy."

"Open the blinds because that man. . . . he's at your front door. . . "WHAT DO YOU DO?"

My son looks at his father, anger and defiance in his eyes. He balls up his tiny fists and looks at his father square in the eyes, without hesitation he says: "I DEFEND MY FAMILY DAD!! I'M NOT GONNA LET HIM HURT MOMMY OR MY SISTER, DAD!!! I'M GONNA FIGHT HIM, DAD, I'M GONNA FIGHT HIM!!!!!"

I see a tear roll down my husband's cheek and he grabs my son to his chest and hugs him tight, and cries. . . "It's too late to fight him, he's too strong and he's already at YOUR front door son. . . .you should have stopped him BEFORE he killed his wife. You have to do what's right, even if you have to do it alone,
before. . . . .it's too late." my husband whispers.

THAT scenario I just gave you is WHY we are at war with Iraq. When good men stand by and let evil happen it is the greatest EVIL of all. Our President is doing what is right. We, as a free nation, must understand that this war is a war of humanity. WE must remove evil men from power so that we can continue to live in a free world where we are not afriad to look out our window. So that my nine year old son won't grow up in a world where he feels that if he just "closes" the blinds the atrocities in the world won't affect him.

"YOU MUST NEVER BE AFRAID TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT! EVEN IF YOU HAVE TO DO IT ALONE!"

BE PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN!

BE PROUD OF OUR PRESIDENT!

BE PROUD OF OUR TROOPS!!

SUPPORT THEM!!!

SUPPORT AMERICA!!!

SO THAT IN THE FUTURE OUR CHILDREN WILL NEVER HAVE TO CLOSE THEIR BLINDS. . . ."

"The liberty we prize is not American's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity." George W. Bush

Freedom has a price to pay and for those of us that have the strength and the desire to help others we must pay that price. My family came over with the Mayflower and every incident that this country has had and every opportunity that we have had, my family has been there and we have had our share of loses. But our solace is knowing that we have done our part to help those who can't help themselves. Jerry

 

[Eagle]

eagle...

just 'cuase congress didn't say the above mentioned were a war doesn't make it so. But your right I do remember Korea being called a " conflict".
This politically correct legal speak reminds me of George Orwell.

and the quote came from Winston Churchill.

No, you're wrong ... unless you don't accept that our Constitution is the supreme law of the land. The Constitution is explicit that the Congress (and only the Congress) has the power to declare war. The last time Congress declared war was WW2. All those other events were military actions of one type or another, but legally they were (and are) not wars. This is not just my opinion ... this is the most basic, fundamental fact of law that every citizen should know and understand from about the time of 7th grade Social Studies class.

Here's a link to another forum where this topic comes up in a discussion of whether stop loss is a form of draft. Look about halfway down the second page for a post by DMF:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthre...5&highlight=congress declare war&pagenumber=2

 

[Bjack]

Jerry (GrandpaXJ) Well said, I agree completely.


I like the message

 

[8Mud]

Let me tell you a story, youngster returns from Viet Nam, first thing he see´s is spit flying in his face. Second thing, is the funeral of his High School buddy. Third is another H.S. buddy, with a his right arm missing and so far in the bottle, he is almost beyond help. Guys been dreaming of walking down the beach with his dog for months, gets arrested for tresspassing on someones private beach (150 yards from the nearest house), his dog runs off during the arrest, he argues that he has to go catch his dog, he is responsible, policeman finally gets tired of listening to this jerk, calls over a few of his buddies (5) and beats him stupid, fractured skull, conccusion, fractured check. Real bumber, guy just got out of the VA hospital, for treatment of bullet holes. Police tell the judge (he isn´t really buying it), he was resisting arrest (judge actually kind of enjoys, his guilty with an explanation plea, when the guy said he sure enough attacked the end of there shoes with his face, hope he didn´t mess up the shine). Guy ends up with a three year probation. Never saw his dog again. Guy is seriously upset, moral delema, if he turns the bad guys into fertilizer, the people left behind, are the ones that suffer, feels like a wimp for not reacting, on the other side, kind of glad he didn´t make any more orphans. Decides the only thing he can do, that might work, is to leave the society that allowed this crap, immigrate to another country and sure as heck don´t pay any more taxes to that state, to support more of the same. Guy has been living in Germany for 35 years, has a letter all finished, asking for asylum from a repressive government, that he has hever needed. Seems to be doing right well, in another society.
Home of the brave, land of the free. Might want to get your own house in order, before you try and adjust somebody elses attitudes or morals.
Not anti-American by any means, just don´t think anything or everything American, is automaticaly the moral high ground.
Guys taking off to Canada, is fine with me, war isn´t for everybody. U.S. really should offer, some sort of alternative duty, if a person is moraly, unable to kill. Let them work off his/or her public duty in an old peoples home, working in the national forests or most anything for the public good.
Morality 101. the guy you burry, isn´t paying the price for his sins, the people he leaves behind are and they just may be totaly innocent of any wrong doing. Flag wavers, patriots or whatever, never impressed me much. War is kind of a pragmatic exercise, IMO, like weeding the garden, the plants that get left in the earth, arn´t necessarily the best, or most usefull, mostly just a matter of oppinion. Don´t really know for guit awhile, wether you´ve done a good job of selection.
Note, there are around 7,000,000 Americans that are living abroad. That you don´t have to worry about robbing your home, molesting your children or murdering you or your family. Ask yourself why, that many people, left the land of the free and the home of the brave.
Last note before I get fried by everybody, I believe a strong America is in everybodies best interest, while not perfect, most ways marginal functional.

 

[red91]

No, you're wrong ... unless you don't accept that our Constitution is the supreme law of the land. The Constitution is explicit that the Congress (and only the Congress) has the power to declare war. The last time Congress declared war was WW2. All those other events were military actions of one type or another, but legally they were (and are) not wars. This is not just my opinion ... this is the most basic, fundamental fact of law that every citizen should know and understand from about the time of 7th grade Social Studies class.

Here's a link to another forum where this topic comes up in a discussion of whether stop loss is a form of draft. Look about halfway down the second page for a post by DMF:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthre...5&highlight=congress declare war&pagenumber=2

I SURRENDER...(great now eagle has me sounding like france..)

 

[Glenn B]

I SURRENDER...(great now eagle has me sounding like france..)

Don't surrender. It *IS* a war, plain and simple. It is all in how you define war. If you want to use the "technical" status and Congress, you can hold a view that it is not a "war". This is a war. Most people accept that, but some will not.

If we want to stick by a war as only being a term able to be used when Congress authorizes its use... there are a whole lotta text books that need to be re-written. The Cold War comes to mind, Gulf War, etc.... Tell one of those troops that participated it "was not a war". Tell the families of those killed or injured "it was not a war". Explain to them your belief about the technicalities of Congress.

war (wôr)
n.

1. 1. A state of open, armed, often prolonged conflict carried on between nations, states, or parties.
   2. The period of such conflict.
   3. The techniques and procedures of war; military science.
2. 1. A condition of active antagonism or contention: a war of words; a price war.
   2. A concerted effort or campaign to combat or put an end to something considered injurious: the war against acid rain.

 

[red91]

Don't surrender. It *IS* a war, plain and simple. It is all in how you define war. If you want to use the "technical" status and Congress, you can hold a view that it is not a "war". This is a war. Most people accept that, but some will not.

If we want to stick by a war as only being a term able to be used when Congress authorizes its use... there are a whole lotta text books that need to be re-written. The Cold War comes to mind, Gulf War, etc.... Tell one of those troops that participated it "was not a war". Tell the families of those killed or injured "it was not a war". Explain to them your belief about the technicalities of Congress.

war (wôr)
n.

1. 1. A state of open, armed, often prolonged conflict carried on between nations, states, or parties.
   2. The period of such conflict.
   3. The techniques and procedures of war; military science.
2. 1. A condition of active antagonism or contention: a war of words; a price war.
   2. A concerted effort or campaign to combat or put an end to something considered injurious: the war against acid rain.

that was my original stance. It comes down to the Orwellian Speak our congress likes to use so much. Then Eagle comes up with the " Legal " definition... and well... I can imagine what you think about LAWYERS. DEEP DOWN THEIR REALLY NICE GUYS !!

I know my father called it the Korean WAR, not conflict. Police action... didn't these yahoos have there own F' n police ??? Our military is not a police force, it is a military plain and simple. Seems to me that the military is used to protect our citizens, country and interests. NOT being a global BABYSITTER.

But I've been wrong before. I just don't think I was when this started.
WHERE ARE YOU Yucca ??? Put in your .02 cents, I respect your opinion.

uhmm...yours too Glenn thanks.

 

[Glenn B]

That all comes down to the "official reason" they are deployed. But make no mistake, it is a war to the men and women that preserve our ability to sit here and post this stuff IMHO.

Also IMHO, those that think otherwise are trying to bury their head in the sand on the issue. Not to really out to ruffle the old birds feathers, but I disagree with Eagle, obviously.

that was my original stance. It comes down to the Orwellian Speak our congress likes to use so much. Then Eagle comes up with the " Legal " definition... and well... I can imagine what you think about LAWYERS. DEEP DOWN THEIR REALLY NICE GUYS !!

I know my father called it the Korean WAR, not conflict. Police action... didn't these yahoos have there own F' n police ??? Our military is not a police force, it is a military plain and simple. Seems to me that the military is used to protect our citizens, country and interests. NOT being a global BABYSITTER.

But I've been wrong before. I just don't think I was when this started.
WHERE ARE YOU Yucca ??? Put in your .02 cents. I respect your opinion.

 

[red91]

That all comes down to the "official reason" they are deployed. But make no mistake, it is a war to the men and women that preserve our ability to sit here and post this stuff IMHO.

Also IMHO, those that think otherwise are trying to bury their head in the sand on the issue. Not to really out to ruffle the old birds feathers, but I disagree with Eagle, obviously.

It's just all the LEAGL-EZZE _hit that I hate. In comes down to Political Correctness which needs to be taken outback and shot in the head.