Do I need more lift for my shocks?

Don't rag on me for not measuring my lift or articulation, I just need to know that if I need to raise my front to accomodate the shocks I put on. I put Bilstein 5150's #BF5-A187-H1 (Travel is 11.93", extended 29.7" Collapsed 17.78") on the front and Bilstein 5100's (travel 10.17", extended 25.93", collapsed 15.91") #BE5-6248-H5 on the rear.



Basically I am trying to find out for best riding on the street, what length should the shock be with the numbers above? Meaning, at normal riding height on the street, would I get the best ride with the shock being 22" extended, 24" extended, or 26", etc?

I bought the shocks so I could have a great riding shock onroad and a great shock for offroad, but right now they don't feel great at all when I go over bumps and potholes...feels horrible actually so I am trying to find out if I need to increase the height of the front so the shock performs better.

My current XJ lift is about 4.5".

Thanks,

Chris (Double Down)

Looking at that pix, you will bottom your shocks before hitting your bump stops. Not a good thing. A couple of hockey pucks will solve that. You don't have that much travel in the shocks, so if you hit a bump on the road you will bottom out pretty easy. Nobody says you can't drive it like that, I did for a long time, but with bump stops.

it rides like crap because you control arm angles SUCK. lifting it higher won't make the shocks act any differently and will only make your control arm angles worse. You need drop brackets. It doesn't look like you're bottoming out the shocks from the look of the shiny area, but it looks like you easily could without extending the bumpstops or moving the shockmounts to extend the shock more.

How do you know if you bottom out your shocks? And what exactly does that do?

What exactly do you mean control arm angles sucking? Be as detailed as possible so that when I go to fix this problem I can understand it myself. Aslo, realize this pic is with stock uppers that I just replaced with RE fixed uppers this weekend...will that help? I was able to change the castor so the shock mounts are parallel to the ground, versus being angled like you see in the pics. But again, tell me what you know.

Any advice is appreciated.

Thanks,

Chris (Double Down)

The first part of this writeup I did discusses the control arm angle issue and one of its solutions, long arms. The other solution is drop brackets.

http://www.4x4getaways.com/LongArms.htm

put a zip-tie around your shock shaft and push it to the top, go drive your jeep around for a while and check where the zip-tie is. if it's smashed at the bottom or gone than you bottomed out. bottoming out will wreck your shocks.

So Tom,

You obviously have a daily driver like myself and you are telling me that all the people on Naxja who run lifts and have told me to get new uppers and adj lowers have been wrong and I am the only one who has had this issue? Because I thought doing all this stuff would help and of course my teeth rattle like you said. So is there anyway you could email me so I can talk some more with you and do basically what you did so my ride is better, plus so I can learn?

[email protected]

Thanks,

Chris (Double Down)

a steep angle on your control arms means the axle has to swing forward to compress. this results in a very harsh ride. the solutions are long arms (multiple manufacturers) or drop brackets from RE. these both give you a better angle on your arms.

RE is the only one that has a drop bracket?

someone else (trailmaster?) used to, but I think RE is the only ones that do now.

Next time measure the extended and compressed distances that your suspension can travel so you know what size shock to buy.

Double Down said:

So Tom,

You obviously have a daily driver like myself and you are telling me that all the people on Naxja who run lifts and have told me to get new uppers and adj lowers have been wrong and I am the only one who has had this issue? Because I thought doing all this stuff would help and of course my teeth rattle like you said. So is there anyway you could email me so I can talk some more with you and do basically what you did so my ride is better, plus so I can learn?

[email protected]

Thanks,

Chris (Double Down)

Click to expand...

You're going to learn a lot more by participating in these forums than you can possibly learn by having an e-mail correspondence with any one member, no matter how knowledgeable he/she may be. The downside is that you may take some lumps if you post something really stupid, but mostly the folks around here don't pile on too badly unless someone cops an attitude.

You have to realize two things: (1) Ride quality is very subjective; and (2) Some people are more accepting of ride deterioration as a trade-off for the off-road benefits of a lift. I know that the harsh ride effects of lifts and increased control arm angles have been discussed on here many times, so the fact that this seems to have come as a surprise to you suggests that you didn't read enough before buying. Also, you kind of dove in backwards when you bought shocks and started trying to adjust the ride height to fit the shocks. You're supposed to select the shocks to suit the application.

Adjustable control arms are to allow you to adjust the caster angle, and to a lesser extent to correct the shortening of the wheelbase that results from a lift. But the control arm angle cannot be adjusted out -- that's a function of the straight line distance and angle between the upper and lower ends. What the arm does between the mounts doesn't matter. A steeper control arm angle, in general, results in a harsher ride. As already noted, if you're serious about on-pavement ride quality you need ther drop brackets or long arms.

Eagle,

Thanks for the info. Yeah, kinda went about it backwards because I was basing my information for the shocks off of someone else who had almost the exact same lift as myself. I have to decide now a couple things; if I want to do a long arm kit or just the drop brackets, plus what size shocks should be on there.

Again, thanks for your help.

Best,

Chris (Double Down)

Thanks for the input Eagle, you were right on. If ride quality is the issue, then a lift without long arms or drop brackets is a big step backwards, no matter what shocks you use. It's all a matter of geometry. I ran 6" with adjustable arms for a long time. Every crack in the road felt like a railroad tie. The drive to Moab was torture. Did it track, yes, Did it handle fine, yes, Did my neck get sore, yes.

I don't advocate drop brackets or long arms for everybody, but they sure make the ride a lot more like stock, or with the long arms, maybe even better.

My Comanche came to me with a Trailmaster lift kit, including the drop brackets. While I didn't have any death wobble problems, ride quality was terrible anyway because the springs and shocks were so stiff. But the worst drawback was that off-road it seemed those brackets were ALWAYS waiting to get hung up on a rock that I should have cleared, but the "right" line for the left side leaves a narrow gap between the wheels and the diff -- and that's just where the bracket sits.

I talked about taking them off for a couple of years, but I got serious when one of the guys up at a Mohawk Trail run ripped one of his Trailmaster brackets right off the frame. Tore out the frame-end mounting bracket/pocket for a LCA. He got dragged back to the campground, and lucked out because a local welder went by in his mobile welding truck on the way home from fishing, and took pity. Welded it all up for a couple of cans of fizzy water and hops.

Check out Clayton's long arm kit. And find a link to Ed Stevens' personal web page. He has a bunch of info regarding shock lengths and lift heights.

Chris - I am running Clayton's long arms if you want to check them out firsthand. I bent one of my LCA's and decided to just go to long arms rather than replace the LCA's and get drop brackets.

BTW - if you decide to replace the Bilsteins with a different size, let me know. I might be interested.

im running the 11" travel bilsteins with 175/60 valving. ive got bumpstops and a pair of coilspacers in my garage, with longarms coming for xmas. i thought that since i had all the parts ready, and the 5150s dont bottom out during daily driving, might as well go with an 11" stroke as im going another 1.75" higher with extended bumpstops and longarms in about a month. heres a pic:



my jeep doesnt get driven that often and is being built very slowly but surely... be sure to look for it chasing jeepspeed this summer

edit: my stock UCA's have since been replaced with rustys fixed uppers... i didnt wanna throw down too much cash as this is on the way:

http://www.rockcontrol.com/Suspension/XJ.htm

PrerunnerXJ, why the lighter valving on the Bilsteins? most XJs run the 255/70 valving

Okay, well here is where I am confused. I understand about the drop brackets and long arms now, but my confusion is probably a newbie. What I don't get is that after looking at everything, with my current shock, I'm guessing that I will have to bumpstops that hit before the shock bottoms out right? So even if I lift the front end another 1.5 - 2" which I am doing with spacers, I will still have to put in bumpstops that hit before the shock bottoms out right? So with my current setup, won't that limit the upward travel that the shock and tire can go? Obviously my extended length will be great, won't the ability to compress be hindered? And if this is true, does that mean if I go to a shorter shock, that more fits my lift, that my upward travel will be greater since there will be more shock to compress before bottoming out versus now?

Thanks,

Chris (Double Down)

PrerunnerXJ, how much lift do you have right now with those shocks and are those shocks the 11.5" travel?

Thanks,

Chris