Reply from Amsoil dealer. What about it?

[Churchlady]

'96 XJ 4.0, just over 90000 miles.

I recently emailed a Maine Amsoil dealer re:switching to Amsoil at my next oil change (coming up in about 1000 miles), & this is his reply.
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There would not be any problem switching to a synthetic. I have switched many vehicles, some of them were over 100,000 miles at the time. The need to use Amsoil's Engine Flush* at the time of switching is very important. The reason being that it removes sludge, carbon deposits, etc. which could be a problem if not removed.
*
Synthetic lubricants clean the engine much better than petroleum lubricants, and the synthetic would dissolve the old deposits. Therefore I recommend that you do flush the engine to avoid future problems.
*
Longevity and fuel economy for the vehicle is best attained by using synthetic gear lube, and transmission fluid as well as engine*oil and filters. I recommend that you order several extra quarts and an extra filter to have on hand. This order reflects only what you would need for the first change.
ASL-QT** 5W30 Motor Oil*(6 qts.) $5.85 per qt.*** 6 x 5.85 = 35.10
SDF-42** Oil Filter* $11.55
AEF-CN* Engine Flush** $4.75
Maine Sales Tax* $2.57*
Shipping* 15lbs.**$7.75*
Total Price* $61.32
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Now I know from reading this forum that a synthetic ATF is not recommended (moot point anyway since I just had my ATF flushed/refilled & I'm not spending that much money again anytime soon), but that synthetics are good for diff/T-case.

My questions are: (1) Is the engine flush stuff he recommends a good idea? (2) Is there anything to be gained from switching my brand-new diff/T-case fluid to synthetic at this time & how much is a garage going to charge me to do that at the same time they do the oil?

I live in a cold climate & I have no garage; I'm interested in nothing but longevity/longevity/longevity. I don't mind spending a little more time & money if it's worth it but I don't have money to burn. Ive heard nothing but good things about Amsoil for years: is it really enough better than, say, the Castrol 5W50 Eagle uses year-round, to warrant the trouble of getting it? (Is the Castrol synthetic too, BTW?)

I will follow the board consensus here so help me out.

*

 

[xjhm]

i would try to find a garage that uses amsoil instead of ordering it yourself, then carrying it into a garage and trying to get them to change your oil, with the new oil you purchased somewhere else.
i have worked in garages and owned a shop myself. when someone came in with there own parts we never gave them a break.
any garage, will buy more parts than a normal person, so they get a price break, this in turn allows them to sell you the oil at the same price(or close to it) as the parts supply house will sell it to you.
so by doing this you are taking money out of the shops pocket, basically leaving you no option of negotiating a deal on labor, and you will end up paying the flat rate from the book...
if you can't find a garage with amsoil, have you thought about mobil one?
i am not familiar with amsoil personally, as i have only used kendall for the first ten years of my driving, before switching to castrol gtx...for the last few
but i am looking into the mobil one

 

[egon]

Churchlady, I've been using Amsoil fluids in everything except the engine for the past 30k miles. Definitely use it in the t-case and diffs. I stopped using M1 in the diffs after I saw what color it was compared to another XJ with Amsoil in the diff, it was still clear.

I use M1 in the engine because its cheaper then Amsoil.

I've used Gunk's engine flush on a few motors including mine, even if it removes a little bit of crap thats in there, its still an improvement.

If you find a shop that uses Amsoil, you will get a break. A shop near me does that.

--Matt

 

[Churchlady]

I haven't been able to locate a garage/lube place near me that stocks Amsoil. (If anyone knows of one w/in an hour's drive of Bath, Maine 04530, please post!) What, XJHM, was your shop's rate for changing oil & diff/T-case w/customer's fluids?

Matt, have you not seen the same difference in M1 vs. Amsoil engine oils that you saw in the diff/T-case comparison? I read that Amsoil outperforms M1 in engine oil as well. (Of course I think I read that on the Amsoil website.)

 

[Eagle]

Like all the major brands, Castrol offers conventional oils, synthetic "blends," and full synthetic oils. I ran Castrol conventional in my Honda motorcycles and in my old Honda sedan. The Castrol 5W50 I run in the Jeeps is their full synthetic.

 

[RichP]

IMO, any full synthetic is superior to any organic oils in the engine. The synthetic amsoil is the ONLY one they bothered to get SAE certified. SAE may not mean much to some but what it does mean is that someone besides amsoil enginereers have looked at more closely and given it the OK. I run Mobil-1 in all our vehicles, one XJ, two TJ's and an oldsmobile. I tried running it in my 81 yamaha XS1100 Midnite special but it was too slippery and the wet clutch would not grab. Had to switch to Castol Syntec and that was fine on the clutch which to me means that the Mobil is more slippery than the castrol syntec One of the reasons I guess that Auburn does not recommend it in their Limited slip diffs, they say only mineral grade organics.
I usually wait for it to go on sale at walmart in the 5 quart containers, Sams club or Best buy and then stock up on it in both 10W for the jeeps and 5W for the oldsmobile. I also stock up on filters, luckily the 4.0 and 2.5 both take the same filter, makes life easier. Wifes been looking at XJ's and ZJ's lately, says she feels like an odd one out with the oldsmobile...
Changing your own oil is just so simple on the 4.0 XJ, one oil filter wrench, one socket on a 1/2" ratchet are the only tools you need besides a catch basin so you can dump the old oil into the cans for recycling when done. Heck, do it right and you don't even get dirty, need quick hands on the oil drain plug though .... I usually drain the oil and check my other stuff, drink a coffee while I'm waiting for the drops to stop. Oh, maybe a pair of channel lock pliers if the ratchet on the oil filler is stripped.
As for an engine cleaner, bah, waste of money, no need, the synthetic is such high detergent it will clean the motor out by itself over an oil change or two. Thats why it's a good idea to change it yourself, that way you can keep an eye on the dipstick and when the oil gets really dark from the sludge being cleaned out and you can't see the markings on the stick anymore you can then change the filter and pop on a new one and add a quart. I do this normally at 3,000mi and I do a full oil and filter change at around 6,000mi and the valve train components I can see in the filler hole are still as clean as the day I bought it. For this clean up period though I would save some money and use Mopar filters though, cultivate your jeep parts person and work on a discount. Just tell them you do your own maintenance
I would also strongly suggest that if you are really serious about this XJ spend the bucks on a factory service manual, it explains alot and is a good read about questions you might have. It is also a life saver when you take it to your mechanic for repairs and he sees it on your seat...thats the 'definitive authority' as far as that goes...

 

[ZmOz]

If you've got 90k there's a pretty good chance your engine will start leaking if you start using synthetic. Rear main's on 4.0's usually go around 100k anyway, you're just going to aggrivate it if you switch to synthetic. Keep in mind that putting it in the engine will not give you enough extra gas mileage to pay for it. You're fine putting it in the differentials and transfer case...I just switched to Amsoil at over 195k. It will DEFINATELY pay for itself there in gas mileage.

 

[Eagle]

If you've got 90k there's a pretty good chance your engine will start leaking if you start using synthetic.

This was true when synthetics first hit the market, but from everything I've read all the manufacturers have revised their formulations and this is no longer a problem.

I switched over two '88 4.0Ls. The XJ had 175,000 miles on it, and the rear main seal had previously been replaced at about 125,000. No leaks. The MJ had about 105,000 showing on the odometer when I switched, but the speedo didn't work (due to no gear in the transfer case -- duh!) when I bought it, so I don't know how many uncounted miles were on it. No leaks.

 

[Hawaiian Style]

"For this clean up period though I would save some money and use Mopar filters though, cultivate your jeep parts person and work on a discount."

I agree with pretty much everything RichP says but this I do take issue with. I don't agree that OEM parts from the dealer are always the best parts. According to Minimopars, Mopar filters are filters manufactured by other companies and painted to be Mopar filters. This can be a very bad thing. Do yourself a favor, buy you filters from a reputible source/manufacturer. You'll save or spend the same but you'll KNOW that you're getting the part you asked for, not something you know nothing about.

From Minimopars:

"These filters are Frams, Purolators, or Wixes. Mopar does not manufacture it's own filters, nor do they require anything special from these manufacturers. Since they basically paint them a different color, stamp them with a Mopar logo, and double the price, there is no reason to buy them. Sadly, the Mopar Severe Duty 53020311 filter is actually the worst filter of them all. It is a Fram Extra Guard."

Purolators and wixes are good but Frams can really suck. Why pay extra for a filter you can just buy at the local autoparts store without stealership markup?

Another question, My 2.5L and 5.2L engines share the same filter but my 4.0L doesn't... ?

 

[ZmOz]

This was true when synthetics first hit the market, but from everything I've read all the manufacturers have revised their formulations and this is no longer a problem.

This would only be true if they reformulated them to make them a worse product. The reason it causes leaks is because synthetic does such a good job of cleaning. It cleans out crap that was otherwise plugging a hole. That has not changed. At 90k with original seals I'd say there's a pretty good chance of it leaking. At 150k+ you're almost guaranteed a leak if you're on the original seals.

 

[RichP]

"For this clean up period though I would save some money and use Mopar filters though, cultivate your jeep parts person and work on a discount."

I agree with pretty much everything RichP says but this I do take issue with. I don't agree that OEM parts from the dealer are always the best parts. According to Minimopars, Mopar filters are filters manufactured by other companies and painted to be Mopar filters. This can be a very bad thing. Do yourself a favor, buy you filters from a reputible source/manufacturer. You'll save or spend the same but you'll KNOW that you're getting the part you asked for, not something you know nothing about.

From Minimopars:

"These filters are Frams, Purolators, or Wixes. Mopar does not manufacture it's own filters, nor do they require anything special from these manufacturers. Since they basically paint them a different color, stamp them with a Mopar logo, and double the price, there is no reason to buy them. Sadly, the Mopar Severe Duty 53020311 filter is actually the worst filter of them all. It is a Fram Extra Guard."

Purolators and wixes are good but Frams can really suck. Why pay extra for a filter you can just buy at the local autoparts store without stealership markup?

Another question, My 2.5L and 5.2L engines share the same filter but my 4.0L doesn't... ?

According to the Mobil-1 parts numbers the 2.5 and 4.0 use the same filter, M1-204. According to the Chrysler parts system the 97TJ 2.5 and the 98XJ 4.0 use the same filter. I pay $4.25 for the mopar filters from the local dodge dealer which I purchased two of for the TJ's when we got them, at that point I switched them to Mobil-1 10w30, the next filters that go on in or around August when they come due for a change and take all 3 jeeps up to cape cod for vacation will get the mobil-1 filters added then.

 

[Hawaiian Style]

Well I'll be a monkey's uncle. I did not know that. Mobil 1 is supposed to be a great filter. Spendy but good. Maybe mine don't match up because my years are different?

 

[elgg]

4.0's up to 91 or 92, can't remember exactly which, use a different filter than the mopar 5281090

 

[Churchlady]

I'm taking this all in.

I gather from other sources that the reason Castrol Syntec might, as Rich says, be "less slippery" than Mobil 1 is that it's base is petroleum. Which might make it also less prone to cause leaks? (I must say Eagle's multiples-of-five formula-- "Castrol 5W50 every 5000 mi. year-round"--would sure be easy to remember.)

I also gather that Rich is recommending using cheap filters for a while after switching because I'll want to change them out at shorter intervals til the grunge is all gone; though I don't quite understand why he specifies MOPARs over Hawaiian's "Purolators or Wixes" from a parts store. Why MOPAR, Rich?

I assume that engine flushes like Amsoil or Gunk just speed up the cleaning-out process--which sounds, at least, like a good thing. Is there any danger they speed it up too much? That letting the synthetics gradually do it themselves is preferable?

Egon, when you say you use M1 in your engine because it's cheaper than Amsoil, what is your oil-change interval? If Amsoil's claims are true (12000 miles w/filter change midway through) it should be more economical in the long run. How can you REALLY tell if your oil needs changing, anyway? I've read that the color of the oil has nothing to do w/it in some cases.

Do rear main seals give any warning before they go--a gradually increasing leakage--or do they just blow out? Should I just have them replaced at 100000 miles as preventive maintenance?

The best price I've found on a factory service manual is $100. Sound right?

Rich, you wouldn't put a grinny-face after "tell them you do your own maintenance" if you'd ever seen me in my manure-encrusted garden overalls.

 

[Eagle]

Well I'll be a monkey's uncle. I did not know that. Mobil 1 is supposed to be a great filter. Spendy but good. Maybe mine don't match up because my years are different?

Your XJ 4.0L is a 1988 -- it does NOT use the same filter as your newer Jeeps. The early 4.0L engines use a filter with a metric thread. You can thread on the later filters -- but they'll probably leak and blow off in short order.

You can change the filter adapter on the block to the new style and run the same filter on all your vehicles. I don't like that, though, because one day for some unforeseeable reason you'll have to let a shop change the oil, and the clever technician will be sure to put the "correct" metric filter onto your non-metric adapter ...

 

[Eagle]

Do rear main seals give any warning before they go--a gradually increasing leakage--or do they just blow out? Should I just have them replaced at 100000 miles as preventive maintenance?

They don't "blow out" ... they leak, a little weeping at first, then gradually more. It only becomes a catastrophic problem if the crankcase ventilation system gets clogged and the crankcase gets pressurized by blow-by. I ran through an entire case of oil driving 2200 miles from Connecticut to Montana last summer because of this. It was an '88 XJ with 165,000 miles. Had a local shop do the rear main seal when I got there, and the guy said the old seal was so brittle it came out in chunks. (But that's one XJ that'll never rust underneath )

That XJ was 8 years and 70,000 miles older than yours. I don't think you need to worry yet. Think about doing the rear main seal when the XJ starts marking its territory.

The best price I've found on a factory service manual is $100. Sound right?

That sounds about right.

 

[RichP]

I used a purolator filter twice on my 98, it took almost 8 seconds for the oil pressure light to go out when doing a cold start, at about 5 seconds I was about ready to shut it off, getting nervous. So the drainback valve on the purolator seems to be different, eagle likes the purolators and maybe on the older ones it works OK but this happened to me twice. Now that I have a gauge panel in there now which I did not have before I may try them again.
In my area the choices are limited, both autozone and national carry Fram, K&N, AC delco and purolator. Fram I don't use, K&N is too expensive for a 'cleaning up filter', they never have the AC one in stock so I used the purolator. After that I stuck with Mopar, I had bought a full case or oil and air filters the day I picked up my XJ and bought another one a year or so later. I tend to buy bulk for filters and oil if I can get a good price on it figuring I'll always use it.
For the FSM $100 is about right, I bought the TJ set for our 97's and that was 3 books at $122 total including shipping & handling. It has already paid for itself with the first two questions I could not answer when we were working on them, like how does that %$##$% box come off the throttle body and 'how does the center bezel come out so we can take the broken cassette deck out and put the new radio in'.
As far as the rear seal going, I know that alot post here about the problem but I bet the failure rate for the total vehicles out there is pretty low. You never see POSITIVE postings like 'my rear seal lasted 200,000 or 400,000mi and is still going strong' like mine is at almost 200,000mi.
As far as quick engine cleaners go, this also includes the machine flushes on the Sun machines, they leave alot of residual cleaner inside that soaks into the sludge. If I did that I would for sure keep an eye on the new oil because it breaks the sludge down even faster which is OK but why spend the $100 or so for the flush when the synthetic will do the same thing. I had mine on the machine a few months ago, I had changed the oil the nite before with some Mobil 10W30 organic knowing that oil was going to be a throw a way change anywayand I wanted to see how much dirt was actually in there, clean oil gave me a better baseline. After 15 min on the machine the filter on it was still clean, same after 30 min, the machines filter was still the color of the new oil so my engine was pretty clean befor the flush.
One thing I have noticed is that my oil stays cleaner when I run a paper air filter, it seems to get darker faster with the K&N flat filter on it so that tells me that the K&N air filter is letting some stuff thru. I'm looking into using the same filters as the TJ's use, they have a foam prefilter on over the paper and I like that, I'll clarify that, the Fram air filters have the foam prefilter, the purolater A25089 does not. I also have noticed that I have that sandy buildup in the air tube between the TB and air box again and the K&N has been on there since Dec or so. That gets cleaned out today when I get back from the gym... I'll probably stick that purolator filter in there to check for size and fit while I have it open then pick up a Fram with the prefilter on it if the fit is OK or I can modify the airbox to hold the 1/4 inch smaller filter that the TJ's use.

 

[Hawaiian Style]

I am using the Purolator Pure One... costs a couple of bucks more but the write up gives it high marks. I've never noticed a problem with the oil pressure. Comes right up. Maybe you got one of the other Purolator models? I like the Wix filter too. Noticed an increase in oil pressure when I started using them... they aren't as easy to get where I am either.

I'm running the K&N air filter too. My air box is a little warped which makes seating the filter a little hard. I haven't noticed any stuff past the filter yet but with my warped box I can see how I could get some.

 

[RichP]

I have heard that wix and hastings make really good filters but none of the places around here carry them. One parts store on Rt22 in phillipsburg nj used to carry them but they turned from a really good parts store with alot of good stuff like: complete stewart warner gauge line, buckets of chrome lug nuts so you didn't have to buy a 5 pack w/wheel lock, real muscle car stuff and not the bling bling speed equipment the stores carry now, into an autozone with mediocre stuff and bling bling speed equipment. I bought a set of rotors and bearings for my S10, they greased the new ones and pressed them in, no charge. Try that at an autozone.. 'Duh, whats a press', or from the local AZ, 'Warn only makes winches, they don't make bumpers' while I'm sitting on the TJ's front one with the BIG "W" on each end... Forgive the rant but I just got back from AZ, picking up a new set of headlight bulbs for the wifes olds, no white ones in stock so he's trying to tell me how much better the blue ones are... Told em if I bought those I'd need a coffee can muffler to go with them...

 

[egon]

I change my oil every 5K miles and use the oversized M1 301 filter. I live in an urban area with frequent short trips, yet still do tons of highway driving. 5K intervals just seem to work, plus its really easy to remember. I get my M1 at shop cost, so that helps too.

As for the rear main seal stuff, mine weeps, not very badly, but enough to keep stuff under there from rusting When I actually notice the oil level drop, I'll fix it, but that has yet to happen.

--Matt

I'm taking this all in.
Egon, when you say you use M1 in your engine because it's cheaper than Amsoil, what is your oil-change interval? If Amsoil's claims are true (12000 miles w/filter change midway through) it should be more economical in the long run. How can you REALLY tell if your oil needs changing, anyway? I've read that the color of the oil has nothing to do w/it in some cases.