Project Tech Snob

[EndlessMtnFab]

FYI...that TRE WILL roll. I have the same arrangement on my HP44. I even threw a J10 washer under it to see if that would help and it only lasted a couple wheeling trips.

I'm also at 5.5" of lift though. Not sure what you were aiming for?

I have a bunch of those J10 washers & bushings (bought them super cheap and probably cleaned Chrysler out). :laugh:


Working with 4.5 inches of lift.



Ford knuckles are also a *little* tiny bit thinner than the Chevy ones. Every little bit counts. I'm honestly not too worried about the setup right now. Main goal is to get this thing driving again. I am also pretty confident that dropping the draglink another 1.25 inches wil help me as well. Another thing I can do is to change to a different TRE on the draglink (where it connects to the RH TRE).



*quick note* That very last picture is just an assembled shot. The suspension is not set to ride height. When sitting on the ground, the angle is less than the picture shows. I mentioned that earlier but thought it would be wise to point it out again.



Thank you for the input!



Joe

 

[MoparManiac]

Not a problem!

I am using chevy/waggy knuckles. They come factory OTK. Also using chevy small bearing spindles/ford hub/rotor to get 5x5.5. PO was looking to run highsteer I think and wanted to just be able to swap out the knuckles.

I'm not saying it bothers me much, I'm just saying it will roll. And I also thought that MOOG rubber boot would help since it seemed to have some sort of spacer in it already. But I destroyed that after a week of driving on the road.

Best photo I have at ride height when the steering was first finished...

 

[EndlessMtnFab]

Not a problem!

I am using chevy/waggy knuckles. They come factory OTK. Also using chevy small bearing spindles/ford hub/rotor to get 5x5.5. PO was looking to run highsteer I think and wanted to just be able to swap out the knuckles.

I'm not saying it bothers me much, I'm just saying it will roll. And I also thought that MOOG rubber boot would help since it seemed to have some sort of spacer in it already. But I destroyed that after a week of driving on the road.

Best photo I have at ride height when the steering was first finished...

Actually ... some of those knuckles are also UTK from the factory. Found that one out at by accident. A friend of mine gave me some "Chevy" flat tops and didn't realize they were UTK. They're still in the basement somewhere. :roflmao:



Well ... there is always the cutting board/UHDPE material as another back up. It's honestly not an issue I am super concerned with. There are other TRE solutions out there. Or I can even look into flex joints for steering (think skinny Jimmy Joints again). At the very least, the issue needs to be pointed out so everyone can see the scenaros and possible solutions.


How much drop is on that pitman. I can see it comes down a minor amount, but unable to determine how much. If your pitman has more than 1.25 drop .... I suspect my draglink will end up being at the same angle as yours when it's all said and done. Figure less height will be canceled out by less pitman drop.



We shall see. Tomorrow brings a new topic in the build. :eyes:

 

[MoparManiac]

Stock XJ pitman arm.

I wouldn't concern yourself too much with it. It hasn't bothered me enough yet to do anything about it, and I usually cruise between 65-80 mph on my way to the trail.

I also considered the UHDPE material to cut and make spacers out of.

 

[EndlessMtnFab]

Then I will probably end up with the same angles as you when it's all said & done.



I will just wait & see. If my wife squawks about the steering response --- it will get changed. I want to make sure this Jeep drives how she remembers it. If we get enough snow ... she takes the Jeep & I take the car.

 

[EndlessMtnFab]

For the most part, I can say the front is done for the time being. There will be tweaks and corrections that I will post later. But for the sake of everyone reading this thread (and gripping their seats in anticipation) .... I will continue ahead.


One of the great things about the traditional hub/lockout assemblies is the ability to "unlock" and drive home if you destroy a front shaft. Because the spindle is supporting the vehicle weight (rather than the unit bearing & front outter stub) .... it is much quicker & easier to remove broken parts.



But a nagging thought kept coming to me. What about the rear? I've only seen a few rear shafts let go in that capacity. Busted C clips are one example of a potential failure. Twisted splines are another. I do agree, that outright breakage isn't a common issue.


Whatever the case may be ... a busted rear shaft can stop things in a hurry because the shaft is transmitting rotational torque *and* holding up the vehicle. So what to do?


I liked the idea of the full floating setups seen on fullsize pickups. Like the front, the hub rides on its own spindle. Therefore, all the axleshaft does is transmit torque for forward (or rearward) motion. Only 2 caveats. 1) Didn't want full width 2) Didn't want 8 lug


Anyone that's visited me (I don't have many friends ) knows I have a collection of parts at any given time. Saw one of my D60 housings sitting on the floor unused and the thought process started. " How about cutting off the spindles and making a full floating D44 setup " was the idea I had. Before anyone jumps all over me .... I already have a D44 ARB that I wished to reuse. The units are expensive and I do not see much strength gain from going to a D60 with my "little" 33 inch tires.



My XJ already had a factory 44 in place; however, it was not the best candidate for a full floating setup. I did not want to use the bolt on kits available (similar to the old Warn FF kit). That mean using real spindles & hubs. Going this route meant that I would have to account for axle width when putting this assembly together. As I researched ... I came to find out the GM 14 bolt has a slightly smaller hub body. Why is that important? I did not want to change to an 8 lug bolt pattern. That smaller body diameter makes it easier to retain the 5 lug pattern I already installed up front. No problem. Not to mention I already had a dead GM14 bolt here I could work with.


I located a full width D44 from an F100 pickup truck. Based on measurements ... I needed more tube length so that I could cut away the flared ends (for the the semi floating shafts) and attach the spindles.


Let me tell you ... driving 2+ hours with a 37 year old axle in your wife's 2 year old car takes balls. :shocked:

 

[EndlessMtnFab]

Arrangements were made with a friend of mine in Michigan ( Mac from C & M Performance Machine ) to modify some hubs for me. We decided to use dual rear wheel hubs in order to keep the width in check. The single rear wheel hubs would have created several issues including an overly long brake bracket (for rear disc) and spring mounting issues (from very short tubes). The downside was the hub body would stick out a bit more than the SRW hub body.



With that figured out ... it was time to start working.


Cut the tubes off and we have the first surprise ! :roll:

This sucker is 3/8 wall tubing ! Almost all rear D44s are 3/16 tubing (I've cut up my share and have paid attention). Big strength bonus there. Was wondering why it took so long to cut through the tubing with a chop saw. :dunce:



Here are the ends cut off.

Grabbed the dead 14 bolt and cut the spindles off (with some extra tubing to be safe). Had a local shop (Albar Machine) remove the extra tube from the spindle. They also machined me a sleeve to attach the spindle to the housing. Because of the thick wall tubing, the spindle would not fit inside (like it does from the factory). I requested the input of several knowledgable friends who all had agreement that sleeving would be more than strong enough for this application. To put it in perspective .... semi floating bearing ends .... they are just butt welded to the end of axle tubes.



At any rate ...... here is the prepped spindle and the sleeve. The holes are both for locating the sleeve and for plug welding.

Cleaned the heck out of everything and made a mini-jig in order to keep everything tight. The spindle is a light press fit into the sleeve, however, cooling/retracting welds can do some crazy things.

This is 3 passes with the TIG --- holding the assembly together.

The sleeve was left ever-so-slightly large when it was machined. Although the housing was straight, the tube was not perfectly concentric. The holes were tapped for a 1/2 - 20 bolt. With the use of a centering bar (will show that later) I was able to turn/loosen the bolts as necessary in order to keep everything lined up as it should be. Then I would carefully weld the sleeve assembly to the tube.

 

[EndlessMtnFab]

Thought you might like to see a big honkin lathe.


Didn't get a picture of my housing in it (it was in there ... but I didn't have the camera at the time).

 

[EndlessMtnFab]

Making my list & checking it twice ..... You know, this *IS* the right time of the year for that ...



Rear truss is up next ! Designing was pretty simple. I used posterboard to make miniature mock-ups of the truss. The goal was to make 2 halves clamshell to each other & then weld into an assembly. If I recall, I think I had to try 4 or 5 times to get it right. But when the prototypes are only 2 inches in size --- it's not that much effort.



Start with a nice big sheet of 3/16 steel. Make sure it's big enough, of course.

Pay attention to where you cut if you have a plasma. :doh:

Here you can see the 2 pieces I am referring to. They have to be bent, still.

Someone sold me a brake that fits into a 20 ton press a long time ago. It's worth it's weight in gold.

Welded up and resting on the axle.

Two pictures showing the cut outs around the centersection itself.

I chose to make this truss with weld points as close to the centerline of the axle tube as possible. The closer to the centerline of the tube, the less welding warpage you will have (meaning the housing won't curl up). The last picture is a slight bit deceiving because I have already rotated the axle up (for driveshaft angles). The D44 tube is 2.75 inches in diameter. The truss is 2.625 inches wide. It's a lot closer to centerline than it appears. The holes were done with a hole saw in a drill press. Nothing fancy ... just a bit of time.

 

[EndlessMtnFab]

A few posts ago, I mentioned about an alignment bar. It is nothing more than a piece of TGP (turned, ground, polished) steel and some aluminum pucks.


The pucks used inside the centersection are from my pinion depth indicator kit. They have a 1 inch bore ... so I decided to make use of them, rather than reinventing the wheel. Look closely at the last picture in the previous post ... you can see the aluminum chunks under the bearing caps.


Albar machine whipped the spindle pucks in super short order and I was on my way. Also, take note of the rear hubs. These are GM14 bolt hubs that have been machined down & redrilled to 5 x 5.5 bolt pattern. The rotors are standard issue F150 rotors with the ID machined slightly.

And two pictures of the housing assembly

 

[kastein]

Awesome quality work as usual! Question though, doesn't it make it a lot stiffer if you weld the truss to the entire pumpkin as well? I haven't really looked into it, but intuition tells me a lot of the material you have following the shape of the pumpkin (the pointy bits right at the ends by the plug welds holding the tubes in, for instance) are not going to improve the strength at all, and that welding it down would improve things. Do you just not want to weld to the pumpkin when possible, or what?

Also, I'm surprised this isn't in advanced tech... it's more advanced than some things I have seen there, and way beyond anything I'll be doing for many years to come.

 

[EndlessMtnFab]

Awesome quality work as usual! Question though, doesn't it make it a lot stiffer if you weld the truss to the entire pumpkin as well? I haven't really looked into it, but intuition tells me a lot of the material you have following the shape of the pumpkin (the pointy bits right at the ends by the plug welds holding the tubes in, for instance) are not going to improve the strength at all, and that welding it down would improve things. Do you just not want to weld to the pumpkin when possible, or what?

Also, I'm surprised this isn't in advanced tech... it's more advanced than some things I have seen there, and way beyond anything I'll be doing for many years to come.

Welding the truss to the centersection might make it stiffer, yes. But you're also increasing the chance of warping (in my opinion). I just tried to follow the shape of the housing as best I could for cosmetic reasons. Nothing more. The back side (diff cover side) has a bit of an odd shape compared to the front (pinion snout side) because I rotated the pinion up for driveline angle.



I already welded the tubes to the centersection (just didn't document it). Just a matter of preference.



I tried to post in advance ... but I have to be a paying member according to the FAQ at the top of that particular forum. So instead it's here.

 

[themangeraaad]

I also wanted to throw some information out there. This project has not been trouble free by any stretch. I have screw-ups just like anyone else, despite being above / beyond mere mortals like you. :laugh::laugh:

On an ideal Jeep (like mine for instance :wave: )

But for the sake of everyone reading this thread (and gripping their seats in anticipation) .... I will continue ahead.

Looks like all of our compliments have gone to Joe's head :laugh:

But that aside. Awesome build. I can't wait to have the resources/know-how to tackle a project like this myself! Very well done.

Oh, And I can always rely on having several new posts every morning to provide me with some quality lunch time reading material :thumbup:

 

[EndlessMtnFab]

Humor & sarcasm go a long ways ! arty:

 

[goodburbon]

Brilliant work. I must say though, that it looks as though it would be easier to shorten the drag link and increase pitman arm drop than it would be to try to increase trac bar length.

 

[EndlessMtnFab]

Brilliant work. I must say though, that it looks as though it would be easier to shorten the drag link and increase pitman arm drop than it would be to try to increase trac bar length.

GB ... I'm not sure how I would shorten the draglink. Both ends are considered "fixed" positions (unless I change out the Chevy TREs).


Regardless of steering setup ... it is advantageous (sp?) to have the longest bar realistically possible. If I just change the pitman arm alone ... the angles will no longer be parallel. IMO ... that is more important than equal lenghts.


If you have any specific ideas or suggestions ... please post them up. I've got a pretty open mind. Just not a very creative one.

 

[goodburbon]

It seems that you have machine shop at your disposal, I would make my own tie rod with a more appropriate postion for the inverted T to come in and shorten the drag link accordingly. It's some very simple machining and you could make the tie rod out of whatever material suits your fancy, for a relatively low cost. I agree that longer is better, but you are constrained by your springs on both sides unless you project the trac bar forward or rearward, which would push it away from the arc the axle is traveling at the ends of the control arms.

It's just a thought, I'm by no means an engineer though so take it with a grain of salt.

 

[EndlessMtnFab]

It seems that you have machine shop at your disposal, I would make my own tie rod with a more appropriate postion for the inverted T to come in and shorten the drag link accordingly. It's some very simple machining and you could make the tie rod out of whatever material suits your fancy, for a relatively low cost. I agree that longer is better, but you are constrained by your springs on both sides unless you project the trac bar forward or rearward, which would push it away from the arc the axle is traveling at the ends of the control arms.

It's just a thought, I'm by no means an engineer though so take it with a grain of salt.

I wouldn't say the machine shop is at my disposal. But they are friends and treat me very well. And we all enjoy a good laff about some of my projects and how I pick on my mother in law.


I think I see what you are getting at now regarding the draglink. But, I'm not quite sure how well that would work. Means I would need to increase the diameter of the tie rod (and make sure it's solid) so I can make a new mount for the draglink's TRE. Unless you mean to switch to a heim setup? If that is the case ... then I can do so very easily.


The axle has already been pushed forward about 1 - 1.25 inches. It is probably to my advantage to push the track bar & mount forward at least .75 inches. Doing so will let me clear the front coil spring and I can slide the mount over a little further (closer to the tire).



I'm actually encouraging everyone to throw thoughts out. You never know what suggestions can come from people that are not involved in a project. Promotes good discussion as well. I like the idea of an interactive thread .... rather than just a bunch of guys going "looking good" :cheers:


At the very least ... I can point at you and laff. :laugh:

 

[Handlebars]

I will just wait & see. If my wife squawks about the steering response --- it will get changed. I want to make sure this Jeep drives how she remembers it. If we get enough snow ... she takes the Jeep & I take the car.

Reading along and seeing how much love you are putting into this Jeep I figured you to be a single guy. Amazing! :thumbup:

I am assuming that when you are done this thing will have all doors and glass... looking much like a "normal" Cherokee to the uninitiated? I don't understand guys that put a similar amount of effort into their rig just to crown it a trailer queen. I'm looking forward to seeing it road- and trail-ready... I doubt you will ever consider it "finished".

 

[jamiemac]

Why have you decided to go with a tie OEM style tie rod set up instead of a heim joint style? What are the disadvantages of the heim style? Just wondering cause on my mild build, I have been looking at the IRO steering setup, and it has heim joints. If they rattle or wear out fast, I would just go with their heavy duty tie rod, and keep every thing else stock.