Project Tech Snob

[EndlessMtnFab]

Buzzbomb ... you got the right person. I used to just have my name & company name in the signature and did so for a LONG time. It was mainly so people would realize that some of the people who put out information do know what they are are talking about. I also thought it would be appropriate from a goodwill standpoint. A moderator disagreed with that view despite being allowed for a long time ( I used to be very active here a long time ago ... despite my low post count ). So now I remain an :anon: poster with a cool build up.



Flexed .... I am doing a stupid amount of stuff. This project is VERY long in the making. It's starting to wrap up now (slowly) as I'm beginning all the bolt on junk (alternator, PS pump, etc) and then the body work will commence as I drive it around. I've had help here and there .... but a lot of people who owed me favors have disappeared and others simply can't make it. Doing it all by hand takes a LONG time. Hence my door is always open for some assistance. I feed my volunteers well and keep them properly hydrated. :confused1

 

[EndlessMtnFab]

Where do I send the check for my crossmember?

Wasn't that hard to make. Just time consuming. I ended up making an "extension" so that there are 4 bolts to the frame rail (instead of 3 as you see in the pictures). You'll see that later in the thread.

 

[trippled]

wow looks awesome! really like how clean youre making everything great job

 

[DeftwillP]

Wasn't that hard to make. Just time consuming. I ended up making an "extension" so that there are 4 bolts to the frame rail (instead of 3 as you see in the pictures). You'll see that later in the thread.

Sounds good. Just post the plans then....:wave:

What kind of welder are you using?

 

[IslanderOffRoad]

Impressive build!

 

[EndlessMtnFab]

Thanks for the continued compliments.


Deft .... if you want the plans I can give you a hand. It's more or less a matter of interpretting the dimensions from the 3 link calculator and plotting them onto the crossmember. Give me a shout back channel if you are serious and I'll go over what I can with you.



Welder wise ... all MIG welds are done by a Hobart 175. All TIG welds are done with a Lincoln Precision 375. As the build progresses ... you will probably see more and more TIG work --- as it is my preferred method.

 

[EndlessMtnFab]

As I mentioned before ... it's a tight squeeze between the transmission and the driveshaft.


How does one get around that? By spending money, of course ! :looser:



Here is a "standard" flex joint (a'la Ballistic, Rubicon Express, Summit Machine, etc).

And here is a Summit Machine "Jimmy Joint" that I decided to use. This picture shows the "normal" width at 2.0 inches wide. While narrower than a standard flex joint, it was still not enough room. I was having bolt clearance issues (hitting the tranmission case). So, I requested Summit Machine make a new, (even narrower) ball for even more room.


I did not need the 60 degrees of articulation their joint offered and was willing to give up some flex to gain room. They did a very nice job and worked with me on getting what I needed right away. The bracket has been cut & re-welded narrower. Later in this thread ... I will show you a picture of the new centering ball to give you an idea of how much was trimmed. I went from 60° of movement down to 34° of movement. Most standard joints are between 30-34° of movement.


Standard Jimmy Joint below:

If you look closely ... you can see the bracket is leaning forward slightly. Take note of the multiple holes in the bracket. They allow for additional adjustment of my suspension based on how I want everything to react. Basic high school geometry tells us that if we move to the highest or lowest holes, the control arm will need to be lengthed or shortened correspondingly. And THAT is why my bracket sits on an angle. It will allow me to change holes without needing to adjust the joint as much (allowing more fine tuning before running out of thread).

 

[EndlessMtnFab]

At this moment in time ... the crossmember is built enough that I can proceed to the next area ( At a later date, I will continue to build the crossmember and make some mods).


What to build ... what to build? :dunno:



The arms !! :greensmok

2 inch .250 wall DOM

Ballistic is now offering their forged joints in replacement for their old welded stud joints. Very nice stuff. My only gripe is they are a bit bulky. Nothing a bit of sanding can't fix.


Side by Side comparison of stock and sanded joints.

 

[EndlessMtnFab]

Here is a side shot of the Jimmy joint. You can see how the extra exposed centering ball allows for lots of articulation/deflection. The shank of the joint is 7/8-14 along with the threaded bung.

I mentioned 2 posts prior that I had a new centering ball machined. Despite all the material removal .... I still have sufficient joint articulation to be comparable with other styles of joints. Only thing I lost, was more money.

I chose to use the OE Factory lower control arm bushings to start this project. Mainly because, if I decide to switch to double joints .... I can easily lop off the cradle and install another joint. You can't easily add an extra 3 inches of tubing. Rubicon Express had a 1st generation arm that used the factory bushings. Great idea ... but the sleeve/wall material was too thin. Almost impossible to press out. So i decided to make my own sleeve that would allow me to press them out safely without fear of the arm slipping off the blocks.

Top arm .... 1st generation Rubicon Express Arm. Middle Arm .... Double Jointed Arm I built. Bottom Arm .... Long Arm for Project Tech Snob

And this is how the arms *roughly* look mounted to the crossmember ....

 

[EndlessMtnFab]

Please keep in mind that I would like to eventually switch to solid alum arms.


I just haven't taken the time to determine all the differences between 2024 and 7075 series aluminum. I'm guessing the main difference is the amount of elasticity and retention memory from minor bends. And price, of course. :jester:


I would not object to the weight savings, either.



I'll look into that more when I have a clear head (and a fuller wallet).

 

[stoneyva21]

DUDE! this build is freakin amazing! i would love to have half your fab skills!

i might just have to make a weekend out of it and come up to pa and help ya out!

 

[FlexdXJ]

Flexed .... I am doing a stupid amount of stuff. This project is VERY long in the making. It's starting to wrap up now (slowly) as I'm beginning all the bolt on junk (alternator, PS pump, etc) and then the body work will commence as I drive it around. I've had help here and there .... but a lot of people who owed me favors have disappeared and others simply can't make it. Doing it all by hand takes a LONG time. Hence my door is always open for some assistance. I feed my volunteers well and keep them properly hydrated. :confused1

Keep it up Dude, If I was close I would come lend a Hand. This is about one of the most detail oriented builds I have seen on here and I love it. You have put up more stuff in 4 days than most guys do in months!

 

[Markos]

Cool tube notcher. A few questions...

Did you build that yourself also?
Is that a hand drill?
How does the end of the rod fit into the chuck?

 

[EndlessMtnFab]

Cool tube notcher. A few questions...

Did you build that yourself also?
Is that a hand drill?
How does the end of the rod fit into the chuck?

Markos,


It's a 2nd hand notcher I bought. This one is made/sold by Speedway Motors.


I mount it in the vise and use a hand drill to do the cutting work. The rod has machined flats on it for the drill chuck to grab.



Would I like better? Sure. But for now .. it does the job.



Joe

 

[OverlandZJ]

Very sick Joe, keep up the good work.

 

[EndlessMtnFab]

I also wanted to throw some information out there. This project has not been trouble free by any stretch. I have screw-ups just like anyone else, despite being above / beyond mere mortals like you. :laugh::laugh:



Shall I prove it ? With pleasure. :dunce:


Below are the only brackets I had professionally cut. I drew them up with my old drafting tools and then transferred the measurements to CAD with some help (rusty with the program). Then had someone cut everything for me. They did an excellent job with what they were given.

So what's the problem? I didn't quite shape them right because of the different lengths (to make a 10° bracket).

The bottom side isn't as bad .... so I left them alone for now.

Welded up with the arm bolted in.

As with all my other tabs ... I made sure that any kind of joint would not hang below when it was articulated. This will allow me to run a flat skid completely underneath without interference. At the moment, I am running bushings at the axle end and therefore will not have contact issues. However, I will change to joints later on and would like to be prepared.


The tabs are 1/4 thick and my "skids" will also be the same thickness. This will allow me to tie everything together to increase the rigidity of the assembly and withstand sideways impacts. I'm sure it is not difficult to notice the large size of the tabs. The LCA tabs will serve as the lower mounting points for my shocks. I wanted to make sure I had sufficient material to weld on 2 triangular tabs (later on in the build) for the mounts.


Another thing I have done is relocated the LCA placement. I have already mentioned that the LCAs sit at 10° based on the suspension design I have chosen. However, I have also rotated the bolt center up and inwards. That is ... the bolt (and bushing/joint) sit correspondingly higher than stock and closer to the axle tube than stock.


Done by itself .. this will alter your suspension geomtetry and create some potentially unpleasant side effects (in particular, brake dive). However, since I incorporated this with the rest of the suspension, I accounted for this characteristic. A closer vertical separation also means slightly greater strain on the joints/bushings. Don't skimp on the quality of the parts you use.


How much clearance did I gain?


Well ... a friend with a TJ on 37s stopped by. He measures 13.75 from the ground to the centerline of his LCA bolt. My setup measured just over 14.5 inches to the centerline of the LCA bolt. With 33s. :cheers::cheers:


This setup is not completely flush with the tube. Anyone that looks can still see the LCA bracket sloping down from the tube. However, it's at a much shallower angle and doesn't drop as far down.


Don't worry folks ... there are plenty more mistakes ahead !

 

[EndlessMtnFab]

Let's change directions a bit, shall we ?



Track bar & steering mods have to go hand-in-hand on a Jeep. This is due to the direct affect they have on each other through their paths of travel.

On an ideal Jeep (like mine for instance :wave: ) the track bar and steering draglink sit at the same angle. This is judged by the end-to-end measurements, with no regards to the amounts or shapes of bends in the material. Additionally, both the draglink & track bar should be in the same plane. By this, I mean that they should both be about the same height. Your TRE at the pitman should be the same height as the joint/bushing of your track bar. And the axle end of your track bar should be blocked (from head on view) by the draglink. The last criteria (and often the hardest) is to try to get the draglink & track bar the same length. If this is not possible (depending on how you choose to mount everything) .... then one should attempt to make the bar as long as they can. The longer the arc, the less movement occurs at the pivot point. This will help to reduce any additional steering feedback and better controls your axle's path of travel.


There are many ways to build a steering system, perhaps too many ways. Inverted T, Inverted Y, and crossover are the most common styles (besides any kind of hydraulic ram setup). Each style has their pros & cons. I chose the inverted T setup, to be mounted on the top of the steering knuckle arm. Some of the reasons I chose this route: Higher clearance, commonly available parts, and retains the use of TREs.

One commonly noted drawback of this setup is "TRE roll" which means the instead of steering force being transmitted directly to the knuckle, some of it is wasted in the joint of the TRE. Once the joint's travel is exceeded, then the steering force is re-transmitted to the knuckle. This roll occurs in 2 places. One place is the Right Side TRE (at the knuckle) and the other is the TRE (from your draglink) where it attaches the the Right Side TRE. Often, this leads to a vague or dead spot in your steering. The higher your lift amount, the more pronounced the effect.


The passenger side TRE roll is mainly an issue related to the design itself. The TRE in question is actually from a Full Size Chevy pickup (with an attaching point for a steering stablizer). On the Chevy design, it only moves in a push/pull relationship with no vertical/descending forces acting on it. When used in our applications, it's receiving an angled push from the draglink ... thus creating roll. The issue is further compounded by the steering arm itself. The Jeep steering arm is thinner than the Chevy one. As such, there is a larger gap created between the top of the arm and the bottom of the TRE. The smaller you can make the gap, the less roll you will have.


On the other end of the scale, we have some roll on the draglink. This is simply a matter the direction of the force applied by the pitman arm. The draglink drops as it goes from the pitman to the knuckle .... therefore, the force is both pushing down and out. The simple way to correct this is to change the angle. That can be done by means of: Less lift, drop pitman arm, high steer arms.



Tired of reading?


GOOD

 

[EndlessMtnFab]

Now that you have finished reading that long post above, you may look at the pretty pictures. :firedevil



For my setup, I have chosen the OTK (over the knuckle) inverted T arrangement. As I am using Chevy steering knuckles, I do not anticipate the roll issues associated with the RH tie rod end. This is a result of the thicker arm and supplied bumper/boot from Moog. Because the TRE bore of the arm is thicker, there is less distance between they body of the TRE and the arm itself. Combined with the thick dust boot Moog supplies, the roll effect on this tie rod end is greatly reduced compared to stock knuckles that are re-reamed to fit the Chevy pieces. I hesitate to say "will eliminate roll" because it tends to bite me later on. :hang: Especially that there is still one other TRE (on the draglink) that has some extra movement potential.

Because the track bar and steering systems work together ... I skipped back & forth between the two while building them. By now, everyone has seen my "new" design for the UCA mount. Looks great, doesn't it? Until you put the track bar mount on. :smsoap:

At almost full stuff (driver side) .... it's going to hit

During my research time, I anticipated raising the track bar mount at the frame end. Mainly because the axle end was raised as well (remember, keep it parallel). However, another reason for the raised track bar is to increase the roll center of your vehicle. A slightly higher roll center assists in countering the tippy feeling of a flop (when wheeling). It just so happened that I needed to raise the track bar to clear the truss. Dumb luck, I guess. :gee:

Cleaned the bracket of rust. Scored the trimming mark. Drilled the hole higher. The two extra holes you see are for a track bar brace that reaches over to the passenger side frame rail. The bracket is a Rubicon Express HD unit.

The particular axle end bracket I used requires a flex joint instead of a bushing (for the track bar). I had Rubicon Express send me one of their "small" SuperFlex joints, but with a 1/2 inch bolt instead of the usual 10 mm. Extra strength is always good, right? The RE HD track bar was cut slightly shorter because of the bracket relocation. If you notice in the picture, the bar has also been rotated. The bend normally comes straight down. I chose to have it sweep out and down. This helps ensure nothing contacts the track bar, as I pushed the axle forward just over 1 inch. Some creative cutting with a notcher was all that was required.

 

[EndlessMtnFab]

The track bar bracket has been cut, drilled, shaped up and remounted to the frame. Big difference in clearance.


Take note of the pitman arm. It's almost flat. Based on the height/climb of the track bar .... that was all I needed. It's also worth noting that the pitman arm is longer than factory. Your steering has a ratio between the pitman arm and the steering arm/knuckle. Often, when people swap in a different axle, the knuckles are longer than the factory ones. A lot of folks forget to change the pitman arm as well ... and then they report loss of turning radius, higher steering effort, and so on & so forth.



This particular arm is from a late 70s FS Wagoneer.

Here are some mounted up shots of the setup. This is not at "ride height"

If you compare the last shot to all the technical drivel I posted earlier ..... you can take notes as to what I did (and didn't) do.


1) Steering draglink & Track bar are parallel. I'm good there.


2) Steering draglink & track bar are almost in the same plane. It's closer than it looks in the pictures. I'm pretty good there (but not perfect)


3) Steering draglink & track bar are not the same length. Space constrictions did not allow me to make the bar any longer. The coil spring was in the way at the axle end of the bar. And I could not relocate the frame bracket out any further, because it would hit the driver side coil. Not so hot on this one.



After the Jeep is up and running (if it ever is) ... I will be re-doing my track bar & steering. My goal is to lower the angle of the draglink even more and to increase track bar length. I will make a new track bar axle bracket that will raise the bar up and move it more to the passenger side. Then I will push the frame bracket forward a bit more and move it outboard as well. All told, it should give me a track bar that is about 1.25 inches longer than the current one. More importantly, it will lower the angle of the track bar. That way, I can get a pitman arm from a 70s Dodge pickup/ramcharger. These have about 1.5 inches of drop. These 2 modifcations should go a long ways in making sure I have positive steering.



For anyone that is asking themselves "Why doesn't he go to heims?" The answer is 3 fold. Heims are not legal for steering components in PA. Secondly, with all the salt/brine that PennDot throws down .... service life is an issue. Lastly, I want parts I can grab quickly at any auto parts store. The RH Draglink is custom because of the reamed hole (I will keep a cheap spare) but the rest of the parts I can get any any auto parts store on any given day.



Just goes to show you how everything is a compromise. :gag:

 

[MoparManiac]

FYI...that TRE WILL roll. I have the same arrangement on my HP44. I even threw a J10 washer under it to see if that would help and it only lasted a couple wheeling trips.

I'm also at 5.5" of lift though. Not sure what you were aiming for?