Gay Rights Activists want to Boycott Utah

[Bent]

If you're going to lock the closet door, bring matches.

 

[tharlanjr]

(Now, we just need to strip Churches of their "tax-exempt" status to reduce the bite on the rest of us...)

I dont know about that, I know my church puts 20% of their first income into missionaries across the world, plus they do a lot of voulunteer work, building homes, helping people in need, etc...

And the pastor writes books whom they send free of charge to troops overseas...

Plus, my Church is bi-partisan, they dont support either side.

They do voice their opinion on subjects such as abortion, gay marriage and things of that nature, but its done in a way that he teaches about it from the bible opposed to just telling you what he thinks.

Once the church crosses the line and supports one party, or pushes their agenda then the tax exemption should be taken away, but look at Obama's church they openly supported him and bashed everyone else, and they wont lose their exemption...

 

[5-90]

@tharlanjr - sounds like you've got a relative rarity, then. Most Churches these days are playing politics without paying the "entry fee" (taxes) - and I'm tired of that.

It's also worth noting that the Roman Catholic Church is the single most profitable and least productive organisation in the United States - and they pay no taxes on those profits. (Yes, I count tithes as "profits" - it's money they make.) Amazing what can come in when you're selling pie in the sky, no?

The main reason I'd like to see all Churches start paying taxes is simple - I don't play favourites. I don't see how taxing Churches would be a violation of the "Separation of Church and State," either.

I give the Churches an option: Either stop playing politics altogether (and preserve the overall tax-exempt status,) or pay to play (all of them.)

Probably the only Churches I can personally agree with are the Christian Orthodox orders - they're the least political and most helpful of the lot (my daughter-in-law and her family are Orthodox - Ukrainian family - they have strong beliefs, don't preach to others, and the Church actually helps people. That, I can agree with!

(Don't suppose you happen to be Christian Orthodox, perhaps?:wave: I'm a mild-mannered Agnostic myself, and I firmly believe that you don't need organised religion to live life in a moral manner. And, the "born-again" or "saved" Christians have shown me some of the biggest crooks I've ever met - and I get tired of their proselytising. Take my brother-in-law, for instance...)

 

[tharlanjr]

This is my church
http://shadowmountain.org/

Most churches only donate 10%, but ours does 20, the pastor gives 20% of his pay back to the church.

Its a fairly large church and it has people in almost ever country and his sermons are heard around the world.

They go down to Mexico a lot, they recently helped rebuild a school, I wanna say lincoln heights, but I am not sure.

They had all voulunteers and completely upgraded the school.

When your doing that kinda work then you deserve a tax break.

I am a "born again Christian", I am a felon also.
But I dont push my religion upon others and I dont want them to push their beleifs or lack their of on me.

Everything is about respect I guess...

 

[XJEEPER]

The LDS Church has one of the best humanitarian programs ever. The US government could actually learn much from them when it comes to organization and response to disasters. http://www.lds.org/ldsfoundation/welfare/welcome/0,7133,1325-1-9,00.html

None of their clergy are paid, but perform their calling in a volunteer role.

Targeting a religious group regarding the Prop 8 vote is another manifestation the degradation of our freedoms and the dilution of our Constitution, not to mention the moral decay of our society.

Too often people misuse the seperation of Church and State.

 

[5-90]

When your doing that kinda work then you deserve a tax break.

I am a "born again Christian", I am a felon also.
But I dont push my religion upon others and I dont want them to push their beleifs or lack their of on me.

Everything is about respect I guess...

I would say that makes you a rarity as well - as the first "born-again" who doesn't preach to everyone about being "saved." Gets tiresome rather rapidly. I do enjoy a good intellectual debate on spiritualism, religion, or other related topics (solipsism and "Where does God live?" are also favourites,) but most people can't separate intellect from emotion and have a good, stimulating debate. Pity.

And, I'm not going to say that an outfit pursuing truly humanitarian goals doesn't deserve a tax break - but it would then become a matter of how do we properly sort out which organisations are and which are not, and how can we ensure that they stay sorted properly? And we can also run into the problem of organisations "taking advantage" of the situation and doing "just enough" to maintain a tax-exempt status, while working to preserve their own wealth and trappings.

I'm sure you understand now where I'm coming from.

But, since you have joined in and seem to be able to view this sort of thing from an intellectual level (rather than the visceral level from which I am usually confronted,) I'd like to hear your possible solution. It is from a meeting of the minds that we can solve problems, and we have the beginnings of such a meeting here, methinks.

 

[karstic]

It's also worth noting that the Roman Catholic Church is the single most profitable and least productive organisation in the United States -

Got a citation for that?

 

[5-90]

Got a citation for that?

Anecdotal synthesis - can't remember anything I've read. It's largely borne of observation.

(If you are a Roman Catholic, I did not mean to offend. The comment was referring to the Church itself, and not the individual members. I hope that was clear.)

 

[karstic]

Anecdotal synthesis - can't remember anything I've read. It's largely borne of observation.

(If you are a Roman Catholic, I did not mean to offend. The comment was referring to the Church itself, and not the individual members. I hope that was clear.)

Yes, none taken. I wonder if the RCC has to pay property taxes?

 

[tharlanjr]

I definetly dont preach, mainly because I remember being the non christian and having people preach to me, lol.

If I am talking to someone and they are interested I talk about my story, but I dont ever try to get them to cross over, haha.

I couldnt debate you about things such as "Where God lives" because I dont know, I simply dont have all the answers, I havent even read the whole bible.

I know what is said in the bible and what is expected of me from my God, and I try my hardest to live up to those expectations, but I am a sinner and thats it...

(Dont really wanna go into details cause' thats a whole different thing, lol)

I think the tax breaks could be seperated by how much they actually do for the community and the world. But also make sure they arent pushing any kind of political agenda.

And only part of their business should get breaks.

I know my church also runs a publishing business for he books our pastor writes and the bibles they make, I dont think that should be exempt, simply because that is a seperate entitee all together.

I would say that makes you a rarity as well - as the first "born-again" who doesn't preach to everyone about being "saved." Gets tiresome rather rapidly. I do enjoy a good intellectual debate on spiritualism, religion, or other related topics (solipsism and "Where does God live?" are also favourites,) but most people can't separate intellect from emotion and have a good, stimulating debate. Pity.

And, I'm not going to say that an outfit pursuing truly humanitarian goals doesn't deserve a tax break - but it would then become a matter of how do we properly sort out which organisations are and which are not, and how can we ensure that they stay sorted properly? And we can also run into the problem of organisations "taking advantage" of the situation and doing "just enough" to maintain a tax-exempt status, while working to preserve their own wealth and trappings.

I'm sure you understand now where I'm coming from.

But, since you have joined in and seem to be able to view this sort of thing from an intellectual level (rather than the visceral level from which I am usually confronted,) I'd like to hear your possible solution. It is from a meeting of the minds that we can solve problems, and we have the beginnings of such a meeting here, methinks.

 

[5-90]

I definetly dont preach, mainly because I remember being the non christian and having people preach to me, lol.

If I am talking to someone and they are interested I talk about my story, but I dont ever try to get them to cross over, haha.

I couldnt debate you about things such as "Where God lives" because I dont know, I simply dont have all the answers, I havent even read the whole bible.

I know what is said in the bible and what is expected of me from my God, and I try my hardest to live up to those expectations, but I am a sinner and thats it...

(Dont really wanna go into details cause' thats a whole different thing, lol)

I think the tax breaks could be seperated by how much they actually do for the community and the world. But also make sure they arent pushing any kind of political agenda.

And only part of their business should get breaks.

I know my church also runs a publishing business for he books our pastor writes and the bibles they make, I dont think that should be exempt, simply because that is a seperate entitee all together.

I could almost go for your idea, but I remember the tax returns I have to fill out every year as a small business (my 2007 return file copy is some four inches thick...) and there are just too damned many loopholes and "ways out" if the system is built the way it is now. Between the IRS having their paper fetish and the fact that the entire Internal Revenue Code reads like looking at Frank Zappa's Underwear Quilt (yes, he really made a quilt from women's undergarments collected on stage...) we should start with a redux of 26CFR.

Once that's done ,and the system is cleaned up, then we can start to address other issues. I'm not against the NRST (National Retail Sales Tax) or the "flat tax" ideas being bandied about in principle - but the fact that they keep trying to make it "revenue neutral" bothers me. If you want to make things easier, the start out by firing probably a third of Federal Civil Service out of hand - I'm sure the fat is there. I'm not talking about people who actually work for a living (Parks service, roads, construction, maintenance, military, ...) but the assorted bureaucrats and their petty little quasi-fiefdoms that just soak up capital. But, that's fuel for another discussion.

As far as "Where God lives," I consider that a question that can show that Science and Religion aren't mutually exclusive. For more information, find a copy of Hyperspace by Michio Kaku and read it - it does a good job of explaining higher-dimension astrophysics in layman's terms, and is a decent read on its own (if you're into that sort of thing.)

Honestly, I'd like to see something like, "If you want to play politics at any time, you get to pay taxes for that year (at least)" put into place, but then who decides who's playing politics, and how far do they have to go to make it happen? Quis custodes ipsos custodes - who guards the guards? Again, that's why I tend to think it's an "all or nothing" deal. It need not be a great deal - a 5% hit should help to reduce public indebtedness, and/or reduce the bite on us every 15APR.

I guess I just keep hitting my head bouncing between "Separation of Church and State" and "Tax-Exempt Status" - if you want to play the game, it's not a "Separation" anymore, and you have to pay the entrance fee for the game. If you don't want to pay your admission, don't play the game. Period. Frankly, I think that if any religious/spiritual leader begins to endorse any political position from the pulpit (read: as a representative of the Church, vice as a private individual) or while wearing his "uniform" (such as the Roman collar of Catholic priests,) then that Church - or at least that branch of it - should become subject to paying taxes for that calendar year at the very least (perhaps for the entire term of years - all six of them - affected by that election? Elections are every other year, one third of the Senate is always up, and Senators serve six-year terms...) You want to play, you have to pay.

I've no particular trouble with espousing a moral position - but as soon as they try to start telling you how to vote on something, or who to vote for, that's when they have to pay taxes - for the next six years.

That should get them to quiet down.

@karstic - thank you, we're clear now. I don't know if the RCC (or any other Church, for that matter) has to pay property taxes - I'd be mildly surprised if they did. IIRC, the sacramental wine that some churches use isn't subject to taxation by F Troop - but I could be wrong there (if we got rid of F Troop's taxes on booze, the price would drop by a good half...)

Edit - Ha! I knew there were pix of that quilt online! Google <"Frank Zappa" quilt> and see what you get, but here's one link - http://bp0.blogger.com/_t6Qduvx0aQ8/R-zr2piIn7I/AAAAAAAAA-Y/NqWgaZv5KGA/s1600-h/IMG_1840.JPG

 

[Boatwrench]

"the sacramental wine that some churches use isn't subject to taxation by F Troop -" No wonder it tastes' so nasty. it's not worth the trouble to tax

 

[RichP]

I know from talking to a NYC tax employee that the RC church is the biggest landowner in NYC. They have for hundreds of years used priests on up to get people to tithe their property over to the church when they are getting up there in years in aiding them 'get to heaven' which has led to some interesting court cases from those who had families and found out at the will reading that the church got it all. Generally they targeted single lonely people though, usually wives whose life long husbands had passed on. This I know from first hand as the church my mother and father belonged to tried this on her. I overheard the whole thing on a baby monitor that was in my sons room when we were living with my parents while our new house was being finished up. I wish I could have recorded it, that was some of the smoothest talking I ever heard.

 

[Bent]

The Vatican, as the RCC is not actually a church but the remnants of the Holy Roman Empire, a government, has been duping people into "buying" both absolution and Heaven for over a thousand years.

 

[msrorysddad]

I'm a "christian" I don't think gettin preachy helps at all. If someone has a question, cool, a conversation, right on, to vote my beliefs, ya bet your ass. I'm gonna do the go out on a limb, you know I will. I think churches should pay taxes, they "make" money, so pay taxes. However, I feel that the church should speak out against what is "biblically" wrong, and not worry so much about the cash flow. Ain't nobody takin cash with them, and I do not think God needs a new car, or a big house. I belong to a church that is pretty good about feeding the hungry, and caring for others. The "tax free" status of most institutes is questionable in my eyes. Look at the salaries of the executives of such organizations. I say, pay up suckers.

 

[8Mud]

I'm a "christian" I don't think gettin preachy helps at all. If someone has a question, cool, a conversation, right on, to vote my beliefs, ya bet your ass. I'm gonna do the go out on a limb, you know I will. I think churches should pay taxes, they "make" money, so pay taxes. However, I feel that the church should speak out against what is "biblically" wrong, and not worry so much about the cash flow. Ain't nobody takin cash with them, and I do not think God needs a new car, or a big house. I belong to a church that is pretty good about feeding the hungry, and caring for others. The "tax free" status of most institutes is questionable in my eyes. Look at the salaries of the executives of such organizations. I say, pay up suckers.

I guess in all fairness the Churches really shouldn't be totally tax exempt. Logic says there should be some exceptions or at least some oversight.
On the other hand, remember the phrase, "if you grab them by the crank there hearts and minds will follow"? If the government starts writing tax code for the Church they are going to have more than a little influence over the Church or "If you grab them by the wallet there hearts and minds will follow".
I can see some activist politician saying to the church if you don't condone my initiative to teach five year olds about birth control, I'll double your taxes.
Born again Christian, you bet. I sure took a strange path, a Rabbi actually talked me into giving God a chance and suggested Evangelist Christianity. Good, bad, right, wrong, truth or fancy I sure can't say for sure, all I know for sure is a small part of society is safer since I found some structure in my life. A set of fairly universal rules I try to live by, as opposed to legislated law, which I have little respect for. If legislated law was universally applied and actually blind, I might accept it. As long as legislated law is arbitrarily applied I still ignore it as much as possible.
IMO the trouble with many of the activist agendas, is they are by definition instigated to promote one group, usually at the expense of another group. Narrowly focused goals with little thought given to the possible long term consequences. Immature strong willed people who actually only care about themselves. there wants and desires. They fail the mirror test, the mirror test is basically to change the nouns and verbs and see if the premise still applies.

 

[Tom R.]

Look at the salaries of the executives of such organizations. I say, pay up suckers.

While there are a few unscrupulous "TV preachers" who prey on gullible believers, the vast majority in the ministry certainly earn their keep. Every pastor I've known doesn't work a 9-5 job; it's typically 24/7. They deal with so much crap that many end up leaving the ministry. And most don't make a lot of money. It's ludicrous that society celebrates sports stars, movie and TV actors, etc., earning millions of dollars each year and then to criticize the salaries of people who work in ministry. Total perversion!

And 5-90, you have a very narrow view of money as it concerns churches. I don't know what happened to make you so antagonistic or if you're just jealous. Perhaps the Catholic ("Roman" is a misnomer) church does take in more than any other church--I don't know--but do you know how many missions, schools, universities, hospitals, orphanages, homes for the elderly and handicapped, and other institutions it operates around the world? I'll wager to you that it's significantly more than most, if not all, other churches combined. And that takes a lot of money. Do a little research before making ignorant statements.

Any church, large or small, operates on the tithes and offerings of its members. Otherwise, they'd fail to exist. Most aren't mega churches, but small to medium size that carefully budget their finances. None are "for profit," but some are responsible enough to budget for unforseen expenses.

What's really at issue here? Calls for taxation on churches, the overwhelming majority of which are trying to do good in a society that glorifies immorality and celebrates debauchery? Criticisms of their finances, as if they they are profit-making machines with bloated executive salaries? Com'on, get a life!

 

[5-90]

I'm a "christian" I don't think gettin preachy helps at all. If someone has a question, cool, a conversation, right on, to vote my beliefs, ya bet your ass. I'm gonna do the go out on a limb, you know I will. I think churches should pay taxes, they "make" money, so pay taxes. However, I feel that the church should speak out against what is "biblically" wrong, and not worry so much about the cash flow. Ain't nobody takin cash with them, and I do not think God needs a new car, or a big house. I belong to a church that is pretty good about feeding the hungry, and caring for others. The "tax free" status of most institutes is questionable in my eyes. Look at the salaries of the executives of such organizations. I say, pay up suckers.

"Biblically" wrong goes in with the "moral issues" comment I'd brought up earlier - I've no trouble with the idea of "moral guidance" coming from the pulpit (although being apostate and having a moral compass are not mutually exclusive.)

And, note that I called for a reform/rewriting/drastic simplification of 26CFR, Internal Revenue Code anyhow. It's uselessly Byzantine, and needs to be eliminated almost wholly. If we just have to have taxes (I marginally agree with that idea; but again, it's fuel for another discussion,) then it should be made as simple as possible. We can then eliminate most of the forms, just about all of the record-keeping can become voluntary for personal filing (it would still be needed for business filing - the environments are different,) and I wouldn't want to spend February and most of March drunk so I can get the damn tax rules to make sense. (I wonder - can I start deducting booze as a "Tax Preparation Expense?")

Again, go with a flat tax or a NRST, but let's not make the policy "revenue neutral" (since that pushes the rates up too far - how would you like a 17% national sales tax?) and start trimming down Federal Civil Service to match. Stop paying Congresscritters so much - most of them are independently wealthy anyhow. Eliminate retirement from office wholly - the system started to go downhill once "politician" became a career choice from which one could retire with comfort (and it would not surprise me in the least that retired Congresscritters get better benefits and pensions than retired general officers. I'm sure they do better than any other retired military person - despite the fact that even a private soldier does more for his country than a Congresscritter.)

Once we've sorted that out, the make politics a "pay to play" game as I said before. If you want to start taking political views (vice moral) from the pulpit, you pay taxes for the next six years - that's the election you've effected. Or, just throw Churches into the Flat Tax schedule to begin with - which should make taxes for everyone a couple of points lower (I'm thinking a flat income tax of 5-7%, or a NRST of 7-9%. Not more) and that helps everyone.

The basic problem is that politicians need to be reminded who their masters are, rather than continuing to let them think that they are the masters. Wrong. There's a reason they call it "public service" - and they've forgotten that.

NB: I'm not fomenting revolution here - just wanting to make things the way they were intended to be. As long as we don't remind them of what has been forgotten, we're going to continue to be the ones taking it up the tailpipe...

 

[5-90]

While there are a few unscrupulous "TV preachers" who prey on gullible believers, the vast majority in the ministry certainly earn their keep. Every pastor I've known doesn't work a 9-5 job; it's typically 24/7. They deal with so much crap that many end up leaving the ministry. And most don't make a lot of money. It's ludicrous that society celebrates sports stars, movie and TV actors, etc., earning millions of dollars each year and then to criticize the salaries of people who work in ministry. Total perversion!

I don't criticise their salaries - although I do criticise the salaries of "athletes", corporate executives, and suchlike. POTUS makes ~$450K/annum - why should anyone make more than that? Quite a few of the most vocal people make more in one year than I can look forward to making in the rest of a long life... And whoever started holding up "athletes" as "heroes" should have his head examined...

And 5-90, you have a very narrow view of money as it concerns churches. I don't know what happened to make you so antagonistic or if you're just jealous. Perhaps the Catholic ("Roman" is a misnomer) church does take in more than any other church--I don't know--but do you know how many missions, schools, universities, hospitals, orphanages, homes for the elderly and handicapped, and other institutions it operates around the world? I'll wager to you that it's significantly more than most, if not all, other churches combined. And that takes a lot of money. Do a little research before making ignorant statements.

I'm not arguing that there are Churches that do good works - many of them do. I don't understand their "tax exempt" status (as a Church, not the pastors/priests/ministers/whatever.) Look at the trappings involved - they obviously don't put all of the money they collect into humanitarian efforts, salaries, or upkeep of their individual "employees" (for lack of a better word.) So, where does the rest go? A good chunk of that money, put back into the public coffers (like the bite that the rest of us feel,) would help the average individual if it resulted in a reduction of the tax bite. Or, put it into paying off the "public debt" and solving trade imabalce problems, and that would help out as well.

Any church, large or small, operates on the tithes and offerings of its members. Otherwise, they'd fail to exist. Most aren't mega churches, but small to medium size that carefully budget their finances. None are "for profit," but some are responsible enough to budget for unforseen expenses.

Unforeseen expenses strike everyone - but not everyone can afford (under the current setup) to save something ahead for them - why do you think credit debt is so high? Granted, there are quite a few people who have "lived beyond their means" and incurred debt, but bona fide problems like medical expenses on the uninsured or underinsured caused trouble. Case in point - my wife had to have a polysomnography (sleep study) a few months ago. After insurance, our portion was $1800. Total cost of the PSG was something like $2400 - spendy, but why doesn't insurance cover more? And don't even get me started on dental...

What's really at issue here? Calls for taxation on churches, the overwhelming majority of which are trying to do good in a society that glorifies immorality and celebrates debauchery? Criticisms of their finances, as if they they are profit-making machines with bloated executive salaries? Com'on, get a life!

I'm not criticising their finances, their salaries, or anything else. However, like most Americans, I'm seeing politics as "pay to play" - and if you want to "play" (take political stands,) the you had damned well better "pay" (taxes) - as an organisation.

I could take a highly twisted view and say that the tax-exempt status of religious institutions compromises the view of "separation of Church and State" (as it plays favourites toward Churches,) but I shan't - I think that's fodder for another discussion, on another day.

 

[Boatwrench]

Wow. Some thoughts.

I started this thread because I thought the article funny. I mean how many gay guys actually vacation in Utah? How many folks are going to change their vacation destination over this issue? How come gays are boycotting visiting AZ and FL that had similiar "anti" gay legislation being voted on.


Jon,
Once prior to the current life I got stuck behind pride parade driving a tow truck with a 60' articulated bus hanging on the back end. I was the only certified tow driver for MUNI living in the City and got called in on overtime, on a Sunday. The pay scale had pyramid premiums, 1.5x for OT and then 96% on top of that. ($20 x 1.5 = $30) + (96% of 30) = $58.80. I sat there backed up for 4 hours.

The religion thing,
Live and let live. Those demanding tolerance here in SF are the most intolerant. The loudest boorish homosexuals are also ranting against the Catholic Church, but here's the rub. At my church, the one used as the set in the Whoopi Goldberg movie Sister Act, I NEVER ONCE heard the priest say "Yes on 8". I guess we are lucky, he puts the spiritual health of the congregation above the policitcal & material BS.

We are not a rich parish even though it's centered amongst $1m homes, most folks here just aren't religious, or bother to go to church. Lot's of C&E catholics ie Christmas & Easter. The $3K per Sunday collection just makes the bills, if it wasn't for the 11th commandmant "Thou Shall Play Weekly Bingo" putting an additional $2K in the coffers we couldn't make our expenses.

In my opinion two things contributed to Prop 8 passing.
1st: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kKn5LNhNto

2nd: Marriage is not taught in the schools according to the State Superintendent of Education. He lied. It was on the State Board of Education Website that it is.

We Americans, as Free Men, will not tolerate being told "Whether you like it or not" nor being blatantly lied to.