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Your Ideal XJ

I don't see it either. narrowing the housing has zero to do with increasing scrub radius or load on balljoints or any funky stresses on balljoints unless you counter some of that by putting stupid wide wheels on them or not installing the parts correctly after narrowing the housing...
 
After talking with Adam about how crappy my jeep drives with factory width axles and -19mm offset 3.75" back spacing wheels. I'm considering his theory of running a full width axles and something like a +40mm offset resulting in 5.5-inches of backspacing. Keeping the overall width the same. Also you don't have the negative side effects of a negative offset wheel. You could use positive offset wheels on a narrow axle but your going to kill your turning radius with anything larger then a 30" tire. (I know this because my XJ currently has +40mm wheels/30" tires and they rub on the lower control arms)

Full width axles plus +40mm wheels = happy ball joints and a better drive with no tires rubbing on your control arms or in my case leaf springs. Also you can just buy cheep half ton or 3/4 ton axles not pay to have them narrowed down and use that money toward other stuff. Like true cross over high steer or better lockers.

Just my opinion.
 
Dave has the right idea. Its all in the back spacing
If you narrow your axle you are forced to run a negative offset wheel and that screws the scrub radius and increases steering effort and the farther you get from center on the bearings increase load on one side as for ball joints the farther you get away from them adds more force on them the same as a lever works.
 
SPECFab said:
Dave has the right idea. Its all in the back spacing
If you narrow your axle you are forced to run a negative offset wheel and that screws the scrub radius and increases steering effort and the farther you get from center on the bearings increase load on one side as for ball joints the farther you get away from them adds more force on them the same as a lever works.
Click to expand...

I think that's where the confusion is, you didn't state that when people narrow axles they still in up adding big backspaces wheels which causes the stress and such on joints and bearings
 
BoringDave said:
After talking with Adam about how crappy my jeep drives with factory width axles and -19mm offset 3.75" back spacing wheels. I'm considering his theory of running a full width axles and something like a +40mm offset resulting in 5.5-inches of backspacing. Keeping the overall width the same. Also you don't have the negative side effects of a negative offset wheel. You could use positive offset wheels on a narrow axle but your going to kill your turning radius with anything larger then a 30" tire. (I know this because my XJ currently has +40mm wheels/30" tires and they rub on the lower control arms)

Full width axles plus +40mm wheels = happy ball joints and a better drive with no tires rubbing on your control arms or in my case leaf springs. Also you can just buy cheep half ton or 3/4 ton axles not pay to have them narrowed down and use that money toward other stuff. Like true cross over high steer or better lockers.

Just my opinion.
Click to expand...

SPECFab said:
Dave has the right idea. Its all in the back spacing
If you narrow your axle you are forced to run a negative offset wheel and that screws the scrub radius and increases steering effort and the farther you get from center on the bearings increase load on one side as for ball joints the farther you get away from them adds more force on them the same as a lever works.
Click to expand...

Demonoid369 said:
I think that's where the confusion is, you didn't state that when people narrow axles they still in up adding big backspaces wheels which causes the stress and such on joints and bearings
Click to expand...

The concept of narrowing an axle is so you don't get stupid amount of tire and wheel out board of your fender. IMO the thought of running full width then putting huge negative offset wheels is just a cheap band aid. I had my front 44 narrowed to Rubicon width and run 3 5/8 back space wheels with was as close to stock as I could go. (About 1/2 inch less) for caliper Clearence. My Jeep drives better than most cars and Jeeps alike. Even with 37" irocs. And I have no sway bar and no steering stabelizer. Its all in the amount of doing things right.

Further more why would one take the time to get full width then put 7 or 8 inch wide huge negative offset wheels to try and narrow the width?
 
ruger81 said:
The concept of narrowing an axle is so you don't get stupid amount of tire and wheel out board of your fender. IMO the thought of running full width then putting huge negative offset wheels is just a cheap band aid. I had my front 44 narrowed to Rubicon width and run 3 5/8 back space wheels with was as close to stock as I could go. (About 1/2 inch less) for caliper Clearence. My Jeep drives better than most cars and Jeeps alike. Even with 37" irocs. And I have no sway bar and no steering stabelizer. Its all in the amount of doing things right.

Further more why would one take the time to get full width then put 7 or 8 inch wide huge negative offset wheels to try and narrow the width?
Click to expand...



I don't see how installing factory offset wheels is a band aid?

Why go though the trouble? I pesonaly think it's less trouble. I don't have to take an axle to someone and pay to have it narrowed so I save money there to use somewhere else. I dont have to buy shorter a short inner shaft eather. A big Plus to the full widths is steering geometry. Your moving the passenger steering knuckle further from the steering gear so your angle is way less. Yes you do have to use a H1 or H2 wheels to make the track width under 80" but that's not a big deal to most. Also most of them axle come with drilled flat top knuckles or at least flat top already. Also if you look around some of them axles come with 4.56 factory at least 4.10's not super good but not bad eather.
 
With my bronco axles I a 8 negative offset and I rubs on the radius arm at lock. but its still wider than stock by 3". before with the stock axles and 15x10 steel wheels it was a bear to turn now I can turn the wheel with one finger as long as the the hubs are not locked.
 
I agree with ruger....

Running a wheel with like 5+ inch back spacing to me is no different than running the 3.5 and lower backspace, the 'leverage' and 'stress' is still there.... Just in the opposite direction.

Not really saying one way is better than the other, lets not forget that nothing lasts as long on a 'wheeling' rig anyway, and I'm sure we all do things were not 'supposed' to, or in other words using things other than how they were intended to be used....

I just say do whatever works for YOU, whatever YOU want. I don't want width so I'll narrow axles.
On a rock rig, I'd run the 5" backspace (so I could fit it in my enclosed trailer but still have some width :) )
 
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Look up scrub radius and you will understand the problem.
On a correctly spaced wheel your tire turns on its self and does not pull one way or the other when a tire hits an obstacle with a narrow axle your wheel swings in a front to back arch and the wheel pulls when you hit something and it makes your rig need more lift or trimming to clear the same tires.
 
SPECFab said:
Look up scrub radius and you will understand the problem.
On a correctly spaced wheel your tire turns on its self and does not pull one way or the other when a tire hits an obstacle with a narrow axle your wheel swings in a front to back arch and the wheel pulls when you hit something and it makes your rig need more lift or trimming to clear the same tires.
Click to expand...
I remember we talked about this when you bought the wheels off me when I started my axle swap.
 
I understand scrub radius. I'm still going to narrow a full width axle, that is if I don't go JK.... :)
 
Nice to see some good tech discussion going on.

The talk of width/scrub reminds me of an article about Jason Scherer's (KOH King) new build. He traditionally ran zero scrub with deep back spaced wheels like many other racers. However, on his new car he's running positive scrub, with a shallower back spacing. With zero scrub your tire has no swing out. So when he found himself hung up in the rocks, and searching for traction, he wasn't getting the result he was looking for since his tires were pivoting on single points. With positive scrub the tire will swing out and allow it to search for traction better. I know I've found myself hung up, and sawing the wheel trying to find traction.

It's all a compromise, and why we all build our rigs differently. ;)
 
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Thanks ruger81, lol I'm familiar with Darrell, he's done a few things for me already, but when the time comes he's no doubt the go to guy!

The only downside is, every time I'm over there (or even on the phone) I loose a big chunk of my day! When you have someone as knowledgable as him, who likes to talk, time flys!

And torx, I remember reading about another racer who did something similar but don't remember who it was now....
 
While that would be nice, I think I'd get bored.... I like to tinker. Probably why I'm on XJ #6. Lol every time I get one setup I decide I want to do something different and start over.

Hell the 98 I have now was just supposed to be a driver. I just kept having parts land in my lap so cheap I couldn't pass them up, and now its a fairly capable rig. Funny how that happens!
 
TORX said:
Nice to see some good tech discussion going on.

The talk of width/scrub reminds me of an article about Jason Scherer's (KOH King) new build. He traditionally ran zero scrub with deep back spaced wheels like many other racers. However, on his new car he's running positive scrub, with a shallower back spacing. With zero scrub your tire has no swing out. So when he found himself hung up in the rocks, and searching for traction, he wasn't getting the result he was looking for since his tires were pivoting on single points. With positive scrub the tire will swing out and allow it to search for traction better. I know I've found myself hung up, and sawing the wheel trying to find traction.

It's all a compromise, and why we all build our rigs differently. ;)
Click to expand...


THIS!!!!

I have tried explaining this so many times and have always had a hard time getting people to wrap their heads around it.

well said TORX.
 
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