Steering Issues. Need advice.

[Jhumphrey]

Ok, so Im still in the process of straightening out the issues that came with my XJ. I got a good deal on it when I bought it, but Im having issues with the steering. This is what Ive done so far:

3" lift (Zone- new coils, shocks, and leafs)
LCAs (Fat Bob's for 3" lifted XJs)
Quick Discos (RC- For 2.5" TJs which fit better than the XJ ones)
1" tcase drop (had vibes at 65MPH and dont have the disposable cash for a YSE/custom d/s)
31x10.5 mud tires w/TJ rims (craigslist deal)
Adjustable Track Bar (RC)

Ive also had the jeep aligned twice (once before the lift, once after). The steering wheel has always been off center and has a ton of play in it. I believe I need a new steering box. I had the jeep in two different shops to find this mystery pop that sounds like its near my foot (just beyond the firewall) on the driver side just prior to full lock when the wheels are turned left. That has recently went to where its starting to pop just before full lock either way (its more faint on the passenger side). Neither shop was able to pinpoint what was causing the pop. They both said that everything appeared fine (tie rod, wheel bearings, ujoints, etc). The pop usually only occurs when I first drive it after it has sat. Every now and then it will do it after its been driven for awhile, but thats rare. Track bar bolts appear to be tight and not pulling away from the frame.

This evening, when I pulled in my driveway, I noticed something odd. The driver side wheel was pointing straight (my driveway is basically level), but the passenger side appeared to me to be slightly turned outward. Think of it like when you turn your wheels, but one was straight on, the other turned to the right (like I had turned the wheel). It wasnt over exaggerated, just slight. My jeep had been wrecked on its passenger side previous to my owning it (mailbox). The bumper was crumpled and the fender destroyed. I have since put a new grille/fender on and straightened the bumper as much as I could. I thought at first that the strange turn of the wheel was an optical illusion, but the more I stare at it, the more Im convinced its turned. I plan to post a photo tomorrow, as it was to dark for me to get a good shot of it to post tonight.

Since I dont know much about alignment, is this toe out setup or is there something wrong with the tierod? The jeep, besides the play in the wheel, drives fine....well, as fine as it can with the steering wheel being jacked up which leads road wandering. The play in the steering wheel is pretty extreme, as in I can move my hands from 9-3 to 7-1 and 11-5 before I notice any front end movement.

This jeep is not my daily driver and I am making it an overland style vehicle. Used for light trail riding, camping, hunting, etc. My wife plans to drive it during the winter when the roads are bad, but I dont feel comfortable with that in its current state, so Im trying to narrow down various things before I start throwing cash at it.

Any suggestions/ideas would be great.

:read:

 

[whitexj98]

Do a complete front end inspection first. With the vehicle on the ground have somone turn the wheel back and forth while you look and feel all tie rod ends trackbar ends and steering box end. There should be no play or slop. Replace parts as needed then do a driveway alignment.

http://jeep-xj.info/HowtoAlignment.htm

 

[Jhumphrey]

Do a complete front end inspection first. With the vehicle on the ground have somone turn the wheel back and forth while you look and feel all tie rod ends trackbar ends and steering box end. There should be no play or slop. Replace parts as needed then do a driveway alignment.

http://jeep-xj.info/HowtoAlignment.htm

I have moderate mechanical experience. That is mostly engine components. I am not that familiar with suspension components. What is considered "play and slop" in those? If my wife is moving the wheel, do I grab (safely of course) those items and shake them for play?

 

[whitexj98]

When she moves the wheel back and forth the knuckles should move smoothley. The track bar should keep the axle from moving. If there is slop it will be obvious most of the time. Thats why touching the tie rod ends (saftely) you can feel for pops/ slop.

Shouldn't really need to shake them but you can, but the wheel turing will show the play and it's important to do all this with the tires on the ground, any slop will show up the best this way.

Pretty much any loosness or slop is bad, the tie rod ends should only be able to roate a little bit, anything else is slop.

 

[Jhumphrey]

When she moves the wheel back and forth the knuckles should move smoothley. The track bar should keep the axle from moving. If there is slop it will be obvious most of the time. Thats why touching the tie rod ends (saftely) you can feel for pops/ slop.

Shouldn't really need to shake them but you can, but the wheel turing will show the play and it's important to do all this with the tires on the ground, any slop will show up the best this way.

Pretty much any loosness or slop is bad, the tie rod ends should only be able to roate a little bit, anything else is slop.

Thanks! Provided the weather is good tomorrow, Ill be under the XJ

 

[rockclimber]

make sure all of the tie rod ends and drag link ends do not have slop and are not loose.

 

[Jhumphrey]

make sure all of the tie rod ends and drag link ends do not have slop and are not loose.

I will certainly do so. Im trying to get everything straight on it so the Mrs will be safe come bad weather months. Im planning to do the ZJ upgrade as well as the Durango steering box upgrade. I just want to make sure Ive found the culprit before I go doing those things.

 

[Jhumphrey]

I got around to snapping a picture today. The weather has been non-compliant with me in hand checking everything. But, anyway, I drew a green line across the bumper and the ground to represent the straight lines. Since my iphone likes to distort images, I figured that would help.

As you can see, the passengerside tire is slightly turned to the right, compared to the driverside (driverside is on the right of the image). If you can imagine standing at the rear of the xj, the driver side tires (front and rear) are straight in line with each other. The passengerside is not. It looks like the passenger front sticks out to the right approximately 1/4-1/2". I can get a photo of that, if it helps.

Suggestions?

 

[whitexj98]

Did you do an inspection and then align it?

 

[rockclimber]

bent front axle housing possibly.

 

[GordoSmasho]

It looks like you are toed out. Inspect the balljoints tierods and trackbar using the method stated above. Then check the trackbar fram mount and steering box using the method above. Then do an alignment if everything looks ok. All you need is a tape measure and a few wrenches.

My gues is that your in for a few new tierod ends at least. At most your replacing the steering assembly and track bar.

 

[Breezio69]

Agreed with tie rod ends being a culprit.... id also go get my money back from paying for 3 alignments if that how they ended up.

Any time I've ever done an alignment they always inform me of worn out parts ( one time was passenger side wheel bearings and the 2nd of course was the drivers side).... also one shop inspected it the first time and did not do an alignment because of the passenger side. I did the repair myself instead of spending the $300 they wanted and took it back, all has been well since.

That's just my take on what a quality shop "should" do when they do an alignment and should stand behind their work....

 

[Jhumphrey]

bent front axle housing possibly.

The axle housing isn't leaking or anything. How can I tell if this is the culprit exactly? After all, if it's bent, that means I have to find a JY to rob a basically new front end.

It looks like you are toed out. Inspect the balljoints tierods and trackbar using the method stated above. Then check the trackbar fram mount and steering box using the method above. Then do an alignment if everything looks ok. All you need is a tape measure and a few wrenches.

My guess is that your in for a few new tierod ends at least. At most your replacing the steering assembly and track bar.

This is what I initially suspected. I believe that most XJs are toed in, correct? I originally planned to replace the tie rod with the ZJ "upgrade" as well as put in a dakota steering box. I already have a new track bar. The only part I havent considered replacing is the drag link, but it sounds like I should do that as well.

Agreed with tie rod ends being a culprit.... id also go get my money back from paying for 3 alignments if that how they ended up.

Any time I've ever done an alignment they always inform me of worn out parts ( one time was passenger side wheel bearings and the 2nd of course was the drivers side).... also one shop inspected it the first time and did not do an alignment because of the passenger side. I did the repair myself instead of spending the $300 they wanted and took it back, all has been well since.

That's just my take on what a quality shop "should" do when they do an alignment and should stand behind their work....

I spoke with both shops (one was my regular mechanic, who didnt do the alignment, but who Ive always trusted and said he checked everything over and the parts were good (we discussed the steering box beforehand and he agreed it needed replacement). The other was a local tire shop that has a good reputation and has done work for me in the past) about any issues with components and both gave a clean bill. Now, let me qualify when I noticed the "toe out" as Ill call it. I had done some light off roading (water fording, mostly level trail, a couple of smaller hill climbs) that morning and when we pulled back up at home, while standing around chit chatting, I noticed the "oddness". I hadnt noticed it from before, but my wife said she thought it had been like that.

Let me go further and say that she couldve been right. When I got the jeep, that side had been mangled from a wreck (the POs grandfather hit a mailbox). As far as I know, none of the parts had been replaced. They literally saws all off the fender and kept driving it. Im basically still fixing their mess.

Due to moderate rain since my off road adventure, I havent been able to crawl under it and do the various inspections. Oh, and when I replaced the track bar with an adjustable one for the lift, I didnt see any cracks in the track bar mount.

 

[GordoSmasho]

I would never pay a shop to do an alignment. It is so easy to do on these type of jeep. If you have any tools you are throwing your money away. A large pare of channel locks and a few box wrenches and a tape measure is all you need.
And yes most cars a slightly tied in. It helps them track straight.

 

[Jhumphrey]

I would never pay a shop to do an alignment. It is so easy to do on these type of jeep. If you have any tools you are throwing your money away. A large pare of channel locks and a few box wrenches and a tape measure is all you need.
And yes most cars a slightly tied in. It helps them track straight.

My bro-in-law will be in town for the holidays in a couple of weeks. He's a mechanic (currently an active Marine), so I think I'm going to order all new tie rods, drag link, and steering box. Since the jeep isn't a DD, I can let her sit until he's in town and have him on hand to help swap all that. That will result in pretty much a brand new front suspension. If I have the spare $50, I'm going to change the wheel ujoints as well (Dana 760x's, IIRC).

Side note to that: is the pitman tie rod the same size as the driver side tie rod? I am planning on getting Moog parts and wasn't sure. I know most don't put in a zj drag link when they do the "upgrade". I can't find a post that has the Moog part numbers for the upgrade.

 

[rockclimber]

You want a zj tierod not draglink. The zj draglink is different and doesn't fit properly.

 

[Breezio69]

Let me go further and say that she couldve been right. When I got the jeep, that side had been mangled from a wreck (the POs grandfather hit a mailbox). As far as I know, none of the parts had been replaced. They literally saws all off the fender and kept driving it. Im basically still fixing their mess.

Now a bent housing doesn't seem too far fetched.... id check it before you spend any money on steering parts

 

[Jhumphrey]

Now a bent housing doesn't seem too far fetched.... id check it before you spend any money on steering parts

How do I check the housing? It doesn't look bent.

 

[Breezio69]

You can do it a couple different ways, straight edge on the tube, from the bottom or wherever you can sneak in in on the front, or you can strip the wheels and tires off, pull the shafts and look down the tubes (best way)

Also could be a bent or moved inner c... someone correct me if I'm wrong, but if its been in an accident and that particular c got twisted up on the tube , wouldn't the wheel point out? And also, wheeling with a potentially loose c could mess the alignment up almost immediately off-road.

I'm not saying this is your problem, just another thought.

 

[Jhumphrey]

You can do it a couple different ways, straight edge on the tube, from the bottom or wherever you can sneak in in on the front, or you can strip the wheels and tires off, pull the shafts and look down the tubes (best way)

Also could be a bent or moved inner c... someone correct me if I'm wrong, but if its been in an accident and that particular c got twisted up on the tube , wouldn't the wheel point out? And also, wheeling with a potentially loose c could mess the alignment up almost immediately off-road.

I'm not saying this is your problem, just another thought.

I'll try the straight edge first, as that is something I can do in my driveway. By c, you mean c-clip?

There is a chance that something is bent from the POs wreck. At this point, I'm leaning toward a tie rod issue (at least I hope...that's an easier fix and cheaper than replacing an entire tube).