Motorcycle helmet laws

[Darky]

Let's not forget that a main reason we get coffee cups with "caution, contents may be hot," and window screens with warnings not to use as a child restraint, and stickers all over the sun visors, is not just that some meddlesome big-brother type dreamed up potential problems, but because some fool (or more likely many many fools) did something stupid and then sued over it, or otherwise burdened the public weal with the consequences.

We would like to think we don't need protection from ourselves, but too many other people do, and we pay the price. I agree there should be lines drawn, especially in areas where participation is optional or obviously recreational, and the risk clearly one that is willingly assumed. I think there's a difference, for example, between requiring seat belts and motorcycle helmets, and requiring roll cages or bicycle helmets. But we need to keep those risks in mind and be prepared to take our lumps if we accept them.

If we want to be free of regulation, we must be willing not only as individuals to assume responsibility for our actions and our injuries, but as a society either to cut loose those who cannot or will not, or be ready to commit public resources to them. That second part may be harder than you think. It's not really simple. If those who are crippled, pithed, maimed and killed by their own negligence become the responsibility of the general public, then the general public (in its manifestation as the government) has some legitimate concern in trying to avoid those consequences. We, as a society, have to make decisions on collective and individual responsibility which can be very complicated. Joe Schmoe goes out four-wheeling with his kids in his cageless beltless Jeep, and dumps it and his innocent 7-year old is crippled for life. Joe is bankrupt, uninsured, maybe killed too. Who pays for the kid's medical expenses and lifetime of special care? Someone, somewhere, has to decide where the line is drawn between our personal freedom to do stupid things, and the relative economy of paying out some of that freedom in exchange for not having to pay out for the consequences of other people's stupidity.

I don't know just where that line should be drawn, but I think this is more than just a knee-jerk us-and-them, liberals-versus-libertarians issue.

Posted over in the gov't mandated safety thread, this is the basis of what I've been thinking but couldn't quite figure to put in words. Some idiot somewhere did something stupid, hired a crooked lawyer and sued. Now its not just that persons problem its everyone's as the costs of the lawsuit get absorbed by the company who raises prices. That's where a lot of the laws that many see as unnecessary come from.

 

[resonant_evil]

I wear my jacket and helmet when i ride. I also like the "cut loose" idea.

It is easy to say the only ones affected by accidents are the ones involved, but we all know that is false. Every time someone dies or is seriously injured it has far reaching effects.

Don't know about you, but when my life is on the line i do what I want. I feel that my life is my responsibility. I don't like protect me from myself laws.

There is no perfect answer yet. Everyone has ideas and opinions, and people who agree with his/her idea or opinion.

 

[Eagle]

Don't know about you, but when my life is on the line i do what I want. I feel that my life is my responsibility. I don't like protect me from myself laws.

I'll go along with that.

The problem is, bikers and their families spout the words, but they don't walk the talk. I think bikers should be free to not wear a helmet if they so choose. However, in exchange for that, if a helmet-less biker in an accident receives a head injury that competent testimony shows would not have occurred, or would have been significantly less severe had the biker been wearing a helmet, then the driver of any other vehicle involved should be off the hook even if he/she was partially or completely at fault in the accident.

We who drive 4-wheeled vehicles have to wear seat belts and put up with air bags -- why should motorcyclists get a free ride?

(Note: Although I haven't owned a bike for a number of years, I did ride and my drivers license still has a motorcycle endorsement.)

 

[bchulett]

I wear my jacket and helmet when i ride. I also like the "cut loose" idea.

It is easy to say the only ones affected by accidents are the ones involved, but we all know that is false. Every time someone dies or is seriously injured it has far reaching effects.

Don't know about you, but when my life is on the line i do what I want. I feel that my life is my responsibility. I don't like protect me from myself laws.

There is no perfect answer yet. Everyone has ideas and opinions, and people who agree with his/her idea or opinion.

No there's no perfect answer... but I'm glad I was wearing a helmet when I went over the bars in mid-air and landed head first.

I draw the line when an idiot goes out there with or without a helmet ... rides over his head (street or dirt) and then we pay for his mistake in terms of long-term care---its called disability.

The problem ... helmets don't always provide adequate protection in extreme situations anyway ... usually resulting in head injuries and paralysis. If you're going to do something stupid and have a death wish... then I say do it and make sure you die without a helmet. And if you don't have the skill or reaction time to get yourself out of trouble ... you don't belong on a bike.

Speaking from experience ... when one does wear a helmet you tend to feel more invincible ... which results in taking chances .. higher speeds ... doing things humans weren't designed to do .. and if doesn't work out you go to the hospital, or the morgue depending on your luck or skill level.

 

[dyna]

Why is Lane White trash? jealous cause you cant make something with your own hands? Helmet laws are BS, If I wanna die on my HD so be it, dont rag on my choices. Do you drive while using a cell phone? I see more dumb asses not payin attention doin 80 down the freeway on cell phones and surely they are responsible for more accidents than my lack of wearing a helmet (which I do). More goverment control is not the answer. Stop whining about your insurance rates. when you get past 16 it will get better.

 

[Darky]

Why is Lane White trash? jealous cause you cant make something with your own hands? Helmet laws are BS, If I wanna die on my HD so be it, dont rag on my choices. Do you drive while using a cell phone? I see more dumb asses not payin attention doin 80 down the freeway on cell phones and surely they are responsible for more accidents than my lack of wearing a helmet (which I do). More goverment control is not the answer. Stop whining about your insurance rates. when you get past 16 it will get better.

Apparently someone was diggin for old threads and voted on this. So I will perpetuate it by replying since I hadn't read the last few posts. I'll just reiterate what's been said, and that is that the person on the bike isn't the only affected if he/she gets killed by a lack of a helmet. However, I also recognize that a helmet isn't perfect and it can in some cases cause more injury or still allow injury. But just from what I've seen, generally speaking, a helmet will prevent injury. Tis true a lot of people drive on their cell phone and then lose all situational awareness. Its also true some people like to drive with their pet Fluffy in their lap. I don't know about you, but I'm not gonna start doing 90 mph with no seatbelt because I saw someone talking on a cell phone with a dog in their lap...We can't solve every problem, but that doesn't mean we should ignore some of them because we don't have a perfect solution or because other people are still being unsafe.

PS: I wouldn't think you could be worried about insurance rates at 15...since many states are now requiring you to be 16 before you're able to drive...the age thing is kind of a dumb arguement because it has no bearing on the discussion and A lot of these people are in their 20's-40's...

 

[jeepinandy]

what happened to good ol' common sense? BE SAFE!!!!

 

[woody]

Re:helmet laws

Common sense plays a large part... everyone is one terminal incident from their end.

 

[hologram]

Being an Emt I've seen what happens with and with out helmets. Both bad but with out usally means DEAD!

 

[xj4x]

Riding without a helmet and leathers to me is foolish, just as is driving or riding without a seatbelt is foolish.

That said I don't agree with the laws that are to protect me from me. Those of my passengers when under legal age yes but not for those of legal age its their choice and the person drivings choice.

To me , and alot of people out there will say I'm an ignorant old fool, those who die when not using the protection that is available are a case of natural selection. Yes thats crass but thats how I look at it.

As for the deaths or injury's affecting my insurance do you honestly believe that if no one got into an accident or died that your rates would stay low? Insurance companies are like lawyers, the bottom of the barrel only looking for one thing....$$$$$$ (and yes I know there are exceptions out there but they are few and far between).

 

[Sarge]

Being an Emt I've seen what happens with and with out helmets. Both bad but with out usally means DEAD!

Well the Hurt report and a recent article in Motorcyclists tell us that most riders who suffer a life threatening injury to their head with or without a helmet have also usually suffered a life threatening injury to one or more other body parts. So dead without a helmet most likely is dead with a helmet also. Once again the majority of deaths during motorcycle accidents is due to thoraic injuries...same as in a car.

Interestingly the article tested helmets and the cheaper DOT helmet does a better job of protecting the head than some of the high dollar helmets. Snell and others allow 300G's to transfer to the head whereas DOT is set much lower. Unless you're a young in shape stud, 300G's can be and usually is fatal in and off itself.

The other interesting thing they pointed out was that the majority of accidents lead to an impact with the level ground at 25 mph or so, no matter what speed the incident started at. Translation is that with the evasive actions and braking we get slowed way down by the time of impact.

As for those who insist on throwing the insurance card...how can a group who are in the minority in a large way affect the rates that highly? Also studies have shown that the insurance costs for a motorcyclist and a car driver/rider are extremely similar. That includes the dreaded long term care everyone always drags up. Despite the fact that I've been riding my entire life (currently 43) and I know no one who is on life support and anything similar due to their motorcycle accident. I have a friend who is a quad but his bike had nothing to do with it. He hit a deer in his jeep and flipped.

Sarge

 

[dmillion]

People who ride motorcycles without a helmet are stupid. People who think the government needs to be everyone's nanny are stupid. Laws that make us all pay when someone does something stupid are... you guessed it, STUPID!

 

[Darky]

After reading through all this, I'm not quite as sure that the helmet laws are any good, but at the same time I'm not yet ready to decide that the gov't has no business telling us what to do either. My uncle lives in AZ and rides helmetless. He's an RN and saw what can happen in an accident when his older brother got t-boned. He survived and didn't lose any extremities or brain or anything, but he did lose sensation throughout a lot of his body. The helmet wouldn't have helped that. I still think that wearing a helmet is a good idea and that even though most injuries are thoracic rather than head related, why increase the chances? I'm half black and that makes it very hard for me to get burned in the sun, but when I know I'll be out there a while I still like to put a little sunscreen on my neck and forehead since that's where the burn usually occurs. I figure why risk it when the preventive measure is so simple.

People who ride motorcycles without a helmet are stupid. People who think the government needs to be everyone's nanny are stupid. Laws that make us all pay when someone does something stupid are... you guessed it, STUPID!

What do you think of speed limits? That's another method the gov't can be our nanny. Without them you'd end up with some people driving way too fast for their or their vehicle's abilities and causing all kinds of ruckus when they lose it.

 

[Ed A. Stevens]

I'm half black and that makes it very hard for me to get burned in the sun, but when I know I'll be out there a while I still like to put a little sunscreen on my neck and forehead since that's where the burn usually occurs. I figure why risk it when the preventive measure is so simple.

What do you think of speed limits? That's another method the gov't can be our nanny. Without them you'd end up with some people driving way too fast for their or their vehicle's abilities and causing all kinds of ruckus when they lose it.

No Legislator is forcing you to apply sunscreen before stepping outside, but they will force you to wear a helmet when you ride (and yes it's for your own good, but so is a hat and they are not mandating wearing of a hat).

The Wife & I were talking about the helmet issues and the bicycle helmet requirement (we are pulling the kids training wheels off), and the motorcycle helmet requirement (cleaning the starter brushes on the 900), and the skiing helmet proposals (packing away the gear), and the proposals for kids in car seats to wear helmets (new booster seats), and horseback riding, surfing & climbing helmets, and will it never end? How many helmets do we have to be forced to own before a person is allowed to learn common sense and take precautions (training and practice, and voluntary helmet use) to survive sports injuries these days? I must have six or seven specific safety helmets (not counting construction hard hats) and I still oppose a mandatory requirement (my opinion has not changed for decades).

The speed concern is relative speed between vehicles, and for the conditions, not absolute speed. The joker doing 55 in ice storm traffic is worse than the demon running alone at 110 in clear flat dry weather. Speed limits in the remote Northern Territory of OZ are unlimited. There are no significant higher mortality rates. Driving there was interesting because most people settled into a 120-140 kph pace (not WFO) and the only danger was remembering to slow way down when pulling off the highway (85 down to 10, to make a dirt road takes some time and adjustment after hours of quickly passing scenery). Legislating to protect the lower end of the bell curve of common sense is a weak argument. If this were wise, then we should legislate against driving in general, and against all physical sports, and against competition that might put the same group at a disadvantage. Let's do it, for the fools and idiots sake, It will make a better world (right)?

 

[Darky]

I will agree with you in part on the speed limits. I don't think you should be ticketed if you're cruisin along on an empty highway. But what's to stop someone from trying the same in crowded traffic? I can't tell you how many times I see some random guy go flying by weaving in and out of lanes at like 95 mph. Its almost always an Evo, SRT4 or random ricer. But then I guess since they're doing it with the law in place, why not get rid of it...not being sarcastic at all, just am tired of people like those I just mentioned, endangering themselves and everyone else cuz they think they have a hot car. You bring up good points, Ed, and that's my problem. I agree with you wholeheartedly, but at the same time think that in some cases its right for the gov't to step in. I don't want to legislate for the idiots while taking away the choices of the law abiding, good citizens. But at the same time if we don't then someone else will complain...I'm actually surprised there haven't been any law suits from families who've just lost their breadwinner to an accident, claiming that had there been a law saying he needed a helmet he'd still be here...We got enough other dumb cases like that. I won't claim a solution except to kill off the idiots and allow common sense to reign in the land....

 

[dmillion]

What do you think of speed limits? That's another method the gov't can be our nanny.

Speed limits are different because to avoid complete chaos you have to have all of the cars on the road obeying a similar set of rules. I mean, I could argue that the government is being a "nanny" when they say I have to drive on the right side of the road instead of the left, but there have to be SOME rules! The speed limit means that when I pull out onto a street where there is other traffic, I can have some idea of what speed to expect the other cars to be moving.

Helmet laws are nothing but an attempt to protect you from your own stupidity. They don't help other drivers to know what to expect from you, or keep everyone on the road driving similarly enough that we can all be safe.

 

[Ed A. Stevens]

But what's to stop someone from trying the same in crowded traffic? I can't tell you how many times I see some random guy go flying by weaving in and out of lanes at like 95 mph.

....

I won't claim a solution except to kill off the idiots and allow common sense to reign in the land....

The futility of laws that do not curtail risky behavior ... ? The basic speed law gets broken in almost every case of vehicle idiocy, and yet we burden the public with specific driving laws to prevent subjective/selective enforcement (to protect ... who)? Did you know the basic speed law applies with the dangerous driving you witnessed, even if the speed is under the posted limit (so much for a law discouraging idiocy)?

How do you propose we allow all the idiots to "kill off" themselves, if we encourage laws to proactively protect idiots? If we recind these protectionist laws we are not killing anyone, but we do remove the false sense of immortality provided by a helmet (or posted speed limit).

Some lessons in common sense and survival, if learning to follow advice is not good enough, do not come without pain. A man needs to know his limitations, and the learning process was never intended to be simple or painless.

 

[Darky]

I have long thought that there should be a stupid driver law. You go take a test and psych eval, and if you pass then they give you a badge or endorsement on your license or something to allow you to ram stupid drivers. A car slowly creeps out until their nose is blocking a portion of the lane? Clip their front end...jump out in front of you and not accelerate to match your pace? "Nerf" em, etc. But there's no way that would ever pass and there'd still be people who wouldn't learn. And others who'd retaliate in kind. Maybe we should just take a lesson from Europe and make the requirements stricter (harder testing for a license, etc) and the punishments more severe for being unsafe. Basically we just need to keep the idiots off the road and populate the roads with smarter people.

 

[dmillion]

I like the suggestion offered by comedian Gallagher. Give everybody one of those little stickum dart guns you had when you were a kid. You see somebody doing something stupid, you lean out the window and shoot them in the trunk with a dart that has a sign on it that says "stupid." When a cop sees a guy driving down the road with about a dozen of these on his trunk he pulls the guy over and gives him a ticket for being an asshole.

 

[Darky]

That's a good one.... But you just know people would start shooting their friends as a joke...