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Another shooting....

XJEEPER said:
For those who weren't already convinced that Diane Feinstein is a Socialist and would like the use the Constitution to line her birdcage (cuckoo) , here is her gun ban proposal:

*** Ban the sale, transfer, importation, and manufacturing of 120 specifically named rifles, shotguns and handguns!

*** Ban the sale, transfer, importation and manufacturing of ALL firearms with a detachable magazine and at least one "military characteristic" -- which could mean just about anything that makes a gun "look scary;"

*** Ban the sale, transfer, importation, and manufacturing of magazines holding more than 10 rounds;

*** Force owners of ALL "grandfathered" weapons to undergo an intrusive background check and fingerprinting -- treating law-abiding citizens like criminals;

*** Force owners of ALL "grandfathered" weapons to federally register their guns after obtaining a permission slip from local law enforcement showing their guns are not in violation of state or local law.

That’s right. If you own a $10 magazine that’s holds more than 10 rounds, you’ll have to register it with the BATFE in their National Firearms Registry.

And you folks wonder why we don't trust the federal government.......just like our Founding Fathers.
Click to expand...

that's the same crap she has been introducing for years now, she also is one of just 10 PEOPLE in all of San Fransisco county to be issued a concealed carry permit.

here's what that bill really means...
Unregistered Semi auto AR-15 has the same penalties as an unregistered FULL AUTO AR-15..... so, a lot of people are just gonna make MGs since it's viewed the same thing in the eyes of the law.
 
DrMoab said:
One of my friends wrote this today. Pretty interesting.
Click to expand...
Your friend wrote a good article (minus the monarchy banter), but consider that the NRA wants to "create an active national database of the mentally ill". What do you suppose will happen then?



sardo_67 said:
Yon, guns are regulated just like booze you say but there are waaaaaaaaaaay too many deaths because of it. why not regulate it more like you want to do with guns?
Click to expand...
The social experiment of prohibition has proven itself a failure. By contrast, the social experiment of stricter gun control has proven itself to work in other countries. Nobody – sane -- is saying to copy those countries or to ban guns in America. Moreso, I understand that responsible gun owners don’t want to be painted with the same broad stroke as criminals, but it’s hard to make such tactical distinctions when nobody wants to cooperate with anyone, or be willing to stray from their respective parrot talking points, or allow third party gun research, or involve medical practioners, or concede to anything whatsoever. I respect your opinion more than that of others in this thread; you’re not panicked, scared or acting irrationally, but you’re also one person among a country of 330 million plus people, and some of them have equally genuine concerns. The lack of cooperation has led to your government’s heavy-handed plans to ban ARs. Doing business as usually is not a solution.


sardo_67 said:
like i've said before, just look at the black & white numbers.... guns don't account for that many deaths in the USA each year compared to many many other things. they just make headlines and grab attention, similar to how weed was made illegal in the 1920s with movies like "reefer madness".
not to mention the "AW" type guns, that's even smaller and i would guess 100 at most last year. Can't say 100% though as the FBI only has a rifle class, everything from bolt action 22lr to AR-15 counts?
Click to expand...
Unfortunately we can’t be 100% sure about those numbers because the NRA keeps sabotaging any attempt at 3rd party firearms science.



sardo_67 said:
also the Newtown shooting was the FIRST TIME this has ever happened, stranger with an AR-15 walked into a school for some unknown reason and started shooting. this happened about 25/30 min from where i live and grew up, i don't feel in danger, i don't carry a gun now because of it, i am pissed off though. now we have all these laws and other douchebaggery that people are talking about doing to "save the children" or what ever. this is a god damn hobby, just like wheeling or building an XJ into a stupid and impractical vehicle that no one really needs but is fun as hell to use.

aaaaaaaand, still the best gun salesman EVER..... OBAMA!!!!!!! ok well the Lanza guy started this latest panic but Obama is really the one sealing it in.
Click to expand...
You won’t hear me disagree with OBAMA’s salesmanship, but he had help from pro and anti gun lobbyists, and – quite frankly - we wouldn’t know of Lanza if his mother addressed his illness and took better precautions towards her firearms.



sardo_67 said:
that's the same crap she has been introducing for years now, she also is one of just 10 PEOPLE in all of San Fransisco county to be issued a concealed carry permit.
Click to expand...
I did not know that; she's quite the hypocrite in that case.
 
14.Issue a Presidential Memorandum directing the Centers for Disease Control to research the causes and prevention of gun violence.

In a little-noticed provision of Obama’s recent executive order on gun control, Obama actually creates incentives for the government to funnel cash to “sympathetic gun-control groups,” according to the Washington Times. Writes the Times:

Mr. Obama is trying to steamroll the Democratic and Republican majorities that kept the ban intact by labeling the advocacy as research. “While year after year, those who oppose even modest gun-safety measures have threatened to defund scientific or medical research into the causes of gun violence, I will direct the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) to go ahead and study the best ways to reduce it,” said Mr. Obama.

Under the terms of the memo, CDC may “sponsor” another entity to conduct the research, which is a handy way of funneling taxpayer cash to sympathetic gun-control groups.

To sum up, then, Obama has shifted his campaign organization into a permanent lobbying group – and he just freed himself up to hand cash to that lobbying group from the government.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/01/18/Obama-campaign-becomes-lobbying-group


There's your "3rd party gun research group"........we'll follow the money trail on this one.
 
garr said:
History has proven many times that once private ownership of Firearms is gone removing access to the Ballot Box is not far behind.
Click to expand...
Canada, the United Kingdom, Europe, Australia have freely held elections, so I'm not worried.


DrMoab said:
Is owning a gun a disease now?
Click to expand...
I don't think owning a gun is a disease, but I do think some of the excuses people make to buy firearms would constitute some type of mental illness.

You guys proved that ARs have little impact on your total homicide rate, so I'm willing to concede their ban is pointless (with what data I have at hand – which as I said before is limited). The problem's that most folks here won't concede anything from their end. In the beginning of this thread many rallied around mental illness; now people such as yourself and beezil have issues with mental illness endeavours. Others have gone into a total hissy fit regarding straw laws or background checks on private or convention sales. If there is a disease it’s something that defies classification.


Beezil said:
Stop!
Click to expand...
HAMMER TIME!
tumblr_mf6yiacwZZ1qm6tzso1_500.gif
 
urban yan said:
The social experiment of prohibition has proven itself a failure. By contrast, the social experiment of stricter gun control has proven itself to work in other countries. Nobody – sane -- is saying to copy those countries or to ban guns in America. Moreso, I understand that responsible gun owners don’t want to be painted with the same broad stroke as criminals, but it’s hard to make such tactical distinctions when nobody wants to cooperate with anyone, or be willing to stray from their respective parrot talking points, or allow third party gun research, or involve medical practioners, or concede to anything whatsoever. I respect your opinion more than that of others in this thread; you’re not panicked, scared or acting irrationally, but you’re also one person among a country of 330 million plus people, and some of them have equally genuine concerns. The lack of cooperation has led to your government’s heavy-handed plans to ban ARs. Doing business as usually is not a solution.
Click to expand...
Well, you can look at England for an example of why many gun owners want nothing to do with further cooperation or reduction in rights. For example, let's say you own a racecar. Someone else crashes one. There is a huge public outcry and the government puts forth a proposal to ban racecars capable of going over 250mph. You decide that's probably pretty reasonable and go along with it.

Now someone else crashes one and the fuel tank was so big it burnt a building down. So the government says hey, fuel tanks have to be under x gallons. OK, that's fairly reasonable.

Someone steals one and plows into a school with it. The government says ok, we're going to make it very difficult to get racecars. You say WTF? That's bullshit, no, I have never caused a problem with mine, never will, and now you want to basically ban them? I'm not agreeing to any further crap like this, nor compromising any further, sorry.

:rattle: BUT BUT BUT YOU HAVE TO COMPROMISE! YOU CAN'T JUST SAY NO! :rattle:

When people get emotional and propose something terrible that you disagree with, why does it have to be a ****ing compromise every time when the status quo is already pretty onerous and many rights have already been given up or restricted? That's how you take rights away a little bit at a time and boil the frog in the pot, and it's BULLSHIT.

urban yan said:
You won’t hear me disagree with OBAMA’s salesmanship, but he had help from pro and anti gun lobbyists, and – quite frankly - we wouldn’t know of Lanza if his mother addressed his illness and took better precautions towards her firearms.
Click to expand...
Agreed. From what I have heard, she had some issues too...

urban yan said:
You guys proved that ARs have little impact on your total homicide rate, so I'm willing to concede their ban is pointless (with what data I have at hand – which as I said before is limited). The problem's that most folks here won't concede anything from their end. In the beginning of this thread many rallied around mental illness; now people such as yourself and beezil have issues with mental illness endeavours. Others have gone into a total hissy fit regarding straw laws or background checks on private or convention sales. If there is a disease it’s something that defies classification.
Click to expand...

I think it's a combination of mental illness and societal issues. There are many heavily armed cultures, including ours 50+ years ago, and most of them didn't/don't really have gun violence issues.
 
kastein said:
When people get emotional and propose something terrible that you disagree with, why does it have to be a ****ing compromise every time when the status quo is already pretty onerous and many rights have already been given up or restricted? That's how you take rights away a little bit at a time and boil the frog in the pot, and it's BULLSHIT.
Click to expand...
I think there’s an important distinction to be made here. Continual compromise is a slippery slope worth avoiding; closing blatant loopholes is not.
You guys make respectable arguments against AR bans, but there’s no slippery slope to be found getting universal background checks (although I’m sure to meet some tyranny, bloated government rebuttals with respect to that point). I will say this, folks here are quick you point out armed “good guys” make the ultimate deterrent towards these types of shootings. It so happens background checks act as a deterrent as well. In fact, I’m willing to bet that change will come from high volume gun dealers like Wal-Mart (trying to protect their bottom line).
 
urban yan said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sardo_67
like i've said before, just look at the black & white numbers.... guns don't account for that many deaths in the USA each year compared to many many other things. they just make headlines and grab attention, similar to how weed was made illegal in the 1920s with movies like "reefer madness".
not to mention the "AW" type guns, that's even smaller and i would guess 100 at most last year. Can't say 100% though as the FBI only has a rifle class, everything from bolt action 22lr to AR-15 counts?


Unfortunately we can’t be 100% sure about those numbers because the NRA keeps sabotaging any attempt at 3rd party firearms science.
Click to expand...

uhh you don't need 3rd party science, those are the FBIs numbers. they are the top law enforcement agency in the USA. any 3rd party you speak of would get their numbers from the FBI, all police agencies report their numbers to higher and they in turn report them to the FBI for the national stats.
there is nowhere else to get the numbers from, black & white.
______ number of people murdered in 2011
______ by hand guns
______ by rifles
______ by vehicle
______ by weapon of opportunity
______ by uhhhh hand to hand combat or what ever?

short of going around to every PD in the country to get the numbers yourself i don't see how you can get much more accurate than that, even if you did it would still be the same numbers as the FBI.
 
Fair enough, so what’s your take on universal background checks? Also, is the NICS manditory across all states, and all firearm sales? I would like to get my facts straight.

BTW, this is a good article that doesn’t demonize either side of this gun argument
http://www2.macleans.ca/2013/01/01/guns-crime-and-stats-in-the-united-states/

and this article shows a possible window to what Lanza’s mother may have dealt with (really depressing read I must say).
http://gawker.com/5968818/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother
 
That second one was written by another shitty, possibly loony mother. I read it and thought it was amazing and then found that out. Of course, insanity is hereditary, you get it from your kids, so...
 
I don't know how much good universal back ground checks will do. I see them as just another thing law abiding citizens will put up with but people bent on breaking the law will just blatantly ignore.

That's the problem with more regulations like this. The only people who follow the law are the ones you don't have to worry about.

Why would a guy who has a criminal record and knows he won't pass a background check even try? He's going to meet some other thug in a dark ally and buy a gun that's been obtained illegally and the cycle will continue.
 
urban yan said:
Fair enough, so what’s your take on universal background checks? Also, is the NICS manditory across all states, and all firearm sales? I would like to get my facts straight.
Click to expand...

Background checks sound great in theory, but the system is chocked full of problems. The gun banner politicians are going to use any opportunity to expand the system to further complicate things, specifically violating the 5th and 14th Amendments by denying people their constitutional rights while providing no process for getting those rights back.

Good people are added to the "no fly list" every day, they're rarely given a reason, and it's nearly impossible to get taken off the list. (Don't believe me? Google "marine no fly list"!) But this list is going to prevent people from having the means to defend themselves and their families???

More importantly, since I'm not in favor of restricting law abiding citizens for "feel good measures", background checks don't prevent crime or violence! Firearms could just be (and are) stolen in order to commit crimes. The Brady's claim that the system has prevented over 1.5M prohibitted persons from buying guns, but only something like 700 persons have been prosecuted for attempting to buy those guns! Why is that? I would LOOOOOVE to cross check those 1.5M names and see how many of them have since committed crimes with firearms, but that data will never be available.

If you want more information about the background check system, here are some great links, including one alternative that addresses a few of the problems.

http://www.gunlaws.com/nicssum.htm
http://www.gunlaws.com/nicsfup.htm
http://www.gunlaws.com/BIDS v. NICS.htm

Billy
 
JeepFreak21;245836821 Good people are added to the "no fly list" every day said:
off[/I] the list. (Don't believe me? Google "marine no fly list"!) But this list is going to prevent people from having the means to defend themselves and their families???
Click to expand...

not just good people, Senators.

They can't even get that right, and yet I'm supposed to trust them to not screw it up for me?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A17073-2004Aug19.html

How is someone that's not a Kennedy going to deal with it? It took a SENATOR three weeks to get off the no fly list.

What do you think the response to someone accidentally put on the backround check list is going to be?
I'm pretty sure it's not going to be "we'll get right on that"

I'm so terribly tired of government being involved in all facets of my life.

I can't buy anything without a tax.
I can't earn anything without being taxed(multiple times at that, Social Security, School districts, local income tax, state income tax, Fed income tax)
I can't fly without being frisked and scanned.
I can't carry a large sum of money without it being subject to confiscation without due process.
I can't speak out without being labeled a domestic right wing anti government terrorist (the next step in control, call them all terrorists!).
I can't protest in any area that DHS has deemed "protected". ( which includes the zone around anyone elected with secret service protection, so much for the right of assembly or the right to be heard by my elected reps)
The government can get GPS information from my phone without a warrant, or look at my text messages without a warrant.


I'm tired of the assault on ALL of my rights, not just the second.

You say that your recourse is the ballot box, but what do you do when the people you elect to represent you blatantly lie during their campaign and the act contrary to what they told you? recall them? Can't do that unless you pay for the election....

The election process in our country has been manipulated over the last 60 years to favor the R's and D's heavily. It's no longer open and fair, it's designed to make it easy for the major parties to be on the ballot and terribly difficult for anyone else. Why do we have R and D employees on local Boards of Elections? Shouldn't those positions be independent? When they control the ballot box it's no longer a reasonable course of action to change government.

You'll notice that the link I posted about Athens, TN was violence over rigged elections and corrupt politicians. There you go, the 2nd amendment protecting votes. That's why it exists.
 
urban yan said:
Fair enough, so what’s your take on universal background checks? Also, is the NICS manditory across all states, and all firearm sales? I would like to get my facts straight.
Click to expand...

background checks on all gun sales already happens. you can not legally sell a gun across state lines without one so it has to go to a shop who will do the NCIS check. in state transfers here in CT do not need to legally be called in but everyone does it for hand guns here, you call the same number as a gun shop would and run their permit number.
for rifles "due diligence" is required so most people just do a bill of sale like you would a car, check IDs and talk to the guy. i do all my gun deals in parking lots for the most part, use forums like this to buy and sell all the time. let someone else pay full price for the gun and i'll get it used for way less, still goes bang so who cares.
 
sardo_67 said:
oh ya i'm gonna listen to an NBC news article from almost a week ago, they can't even call the AR mags "MAGs" and not clips so i think the official State Police press release is a little more believable.
Click to expand...

NBC is a liberal sh1thole. they have nothing to gain by that report.

i think you and i could agree that the whole information flow from this event is TOTALLY corrupt.

there are still a ton of reports out there that say an AR-15 was simply not used.

having one at the scene surely gives the gun hating movement a fair amount of leverage for their agenda.
 
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