Added a little lift, death wobble problems! sway bar related?? searched...

[mk153smaw]

In every other car that I know of, the sway bar is an add on to an existing good system. The Jeep system, in particular to the XJ, is designed as an intergral part of the system.
Which is why, and I am only talking about XJ's, the sway bar is needed to prevent DW at speeds over 40mph. I have had other vehicles without swaybars also. The XJ is a completely isolated design issue that I have run across or heard of. It is the only vehicle system that I know of that is suposed to "self" center itself?! Pretty much when you start hearing about when folks run into the DW area it is because of the change of geometry of all the associated parts. Put them all back to correct angle and everything works great again.

 

[ZacSquatch]

Sway bar has everything to do with it. All the parts work as a system. Did you buy, or make, 3 inch extended mounts for the sway bar system? you really need those, or get some longer links to make up for the lift.

You sir are an idiot by far....

Have you not read the posts above?

Has your mother had any kids that lived?

Did you switch your car insurance to Geico?

 

[mk153smaw]

You sir are an idiot by far....

Have you not read the posts above?

Has your mother had any kids that lived?

Did you switch your car insurance to Geico?

Bound to happen eventually.........

 

[RyanM]

I haven't had a sway bar front or rear for 2 years, no Death wobble.75mph es no problema. If your shocks and springs are any kind of good.

Probably hung the driver side tire in the air, folding the tie-rod giving yourself 10" of toe in :gee:

 

[91Woody]

You sir are an idiot by far....

Have you not read the posts above?

Has your mother had any kids that lived?

Did you switch your car insurance to Geico?

A bit harsh, no? He is simply regurgitating what one of the tech's told him. I don't know him/her and I'm not defending him/her. Granted, if you don't know for sure you shouldn't say anything, but geez.
BTW, I have GEICO....lol- but I don't need auto insurance

 

[cal]

In every other car that I know of, the sway bar is an add on to an existing good system. The Jeep system, in particular to the XJ, is designed as an intergral part of the system.
Which is why, and I am only talking about XJ's, the sway bar is needed to prevent DW at speeds over 40mph. I have had other vehicles without swaybars also. The XJ is a completely isolated design issue that I have run across or heard of. It is the only vehicle system that I know of that is suposed to "self" center itself?! Pretty much when you start hearing about when folks run into the DW area it is because of the change of geometry of all the associated parts. Put them all back to correct angle and everything works great again.

But the XJ has the exact same style of suspension that DOZENS of other cars have. Its an isolated design just like everyone elses?

The swaybar counteracts body roll keeping the weight on the proper tires during a turn. it does NOTHING ELSE.

 

[rovernut]

It's the damn track bar that causes DW. The axle is swinging side to side, as mentioned before, and the wheels are trying their best to stay straight. Tighten it up. It'll even drive OK with the axle off center a little, but loose is dangerous.

The stabilizer ONLY keeps the steering wheel from ripping out of your hands when the wheels hit an object.

The sway bar ONLY controls body lean. My old Range Rover doesn't even have sway bars, didn't come with them from the factory.

The "death wobble" you have at 70 (WTF?) is, I promise you, just a tire out of balance. A Jeep that managed to get to 70 with a DW problem is the exact reason they call it "death wobble". You'd be dead. You have not experienced death wobble yet.

 

[RyanM]

It's the damn track bar that causes DW. The axle is swinging side to side, as mentioned before, and the wheels are trying their best to stay straight. Tighten it up. It'll even drive OK with the axle off center a little, but loose is dangerous.

The stabilizer ONLY keeps the steering wheel from ripping out of your hands when the wheels hit an object.

The sway bar ONLY controls body lean. My old Range Rover doesn't even have sway bars, didn't come with them from the factory.

The "death wobble" you have at 70 (WTF?) is, I promise you, just a tire out of balance. A Jeep that managed to get to 70 with a DW problem is the exact reason they call it "death wobble". You'd be dead. You have not experienced death wobble yet.

1st post ever since a year! You must be heated!

 

[rovernut]

1st post in a year! You must be heated!

I only post when I know I'm right.

Really, I usually just read this with my son when he signs on.:cheers:

 

[mk153smaw]

Sway bar has everything to do with it. All the parts work as a system. Did you buy, or make, 3 inch extended mounts for the sway bar system? you really need those, or get some longer links to make up for the lift. The track bar more than likely need about and inch or so in more length.
Important note**** do not install the tracbar until you have everything else conected and the vehicle is on the ground. Then do exactly as Jeep instructs to "center" your setup.
Flex the car up and down..... basically bounce it from the bumper up and down.
then
Push it from a fender left to right a few times, making sure you really move the front end.
Then
Bounce the front again.
all this will center the whole kit and make adjusting the tracbar so easy.
For highway use, the sway bar must be connected. Those of us who dont have them conect and are "fine" are lucky that the system is currently aligned. I called Jeep about this problem and spoke to one of the guys whom designs the suspensions and he laid it our for me, along with telling me what page the instructions were on in my Helms manual.
I thought it was funny but it works perfectly.

I know everyone wants to talk about just one part and boom it must be fixed by just that one part. The thread has gooten further from where I had posted this earlier.
I am only speaking from a system as a whole, with all of its parts connected. Once parts are removed from a system, simple known fixes become harder to apply.
More about me, maybe it will help with understanding where I come from in my thought process. I ran a logistics shop in the Marines. The mechanics shops I had to supervise and inspect always ran into the wierdest issues.
By systematically completeing a process with all of its corresponding parts you lose some of the variablility of where things can go wrong. Yes, by all means removing a particular part can have no noticeable affect, other than you have added a variation to the system.
I am a big fan of modifing anything, but I keep in mind the original intent of the system I am altering. And now that I am Six Sigma designer I further examine systems and how to reduce variation to find solutions or where something may have gone wrong. I may not be a certified ACE mechanic, but I have access to all the publications and engineers who work with stuff like this. Heck I even set up 6 diffrent XJ's when my friends and i first worked with the DW problem (yes we a geeks with too much time), each time removing something causing variation brought on DW.


Ouch my head hurts :anon:

 

[mgreen84]

death wobble at 70....lol.....I bet you couldn't drive a needle in his as* with a sledge hammer!

one question ...if in fact you experienced death wobble at 70 mph and are apparently still alive....did you buy boxers or briefs to replace the ones that are now full of brown death wobble byproduct???

 

[Starboard M]

Explain to me how countless people who run without a sway bar and do not have DW.

 

[JJacobs]

Actually the sway bar does more than keep the vehicle from leaning. It has a large effect on spring rate. When connected, you will get less vertical travel when one wheel hits a bump than if disconnected since it's basically a torsion spring. Now both wheels moving at the same rate, obviously it'll make no difference.

Another thing, assuming the standard inverted-y steering- lifting the front 3 inches will net almost .8" of toe-in. That's a lot, and nobody should be asking about DW post-lift unless they've first had an alignment. Turning the drag link adjusting sleeve to re-center the wheel after a rough day wheeling affects the toe, too. (inverted-y only)

 

[mk153smaw]

Explain to me how countless people who run without a sway bar and do not have DW.

I never said it could not happen. I am glad I have mine connected, keeping the system as designed, and do not have DW either.
As I said before I am only discussing the system as a whole.

 

[alekz]

wow guys, thanks a lot for your responses, I'm not finished reading thru all of them yet but this afternoon I took a look at it and it definetly "looks" like the differential is pulled sligthly to the drivers side. this is by visual inspection only, haven't really measured but that has convinced me more than enough to buy an adjustable track bar.

thanks for all your input.

 

[alekz]

I seriously think that somepeople mistake DW for a lil shimmy in the wheel. DW at 45 Mph still gives me nightmares from time to time. DW at 70 should and could rip the axle out from under the jeep. It's definitly enough to fold a tracbar like a taco.

It felt like it was going to rip from underneath, I had experienced it before on another XJ at about 55-60mph and this was way worse. I was sort of expecting it, but when I hit 60mph I was like, "yes, no DW" and then ohhh sh*t...luckily I was still looking for it as it was pulling a little before the lift and I figured it was out of alignment so I hit the brakes as soon as it shook so as to stop it asap, hitting the brakes hard really helped stop it and I wasn't DW for a long distance or anything.

after taking a closer look at the driver side tire, its peeling from the outside edge, I guess that violent shacking really took a toll on it. I didnt see anything bent, but I will definetly take a closer look at everything.

 

[alekz]

I wanna know how they managed to get 3" springs on the front without d/c the trackbar, shocks, drag link.....ONLY the sway bar.

Plain and simple, you need an adjustable trackbar...i wouldnt do the re-drill method....plus you probably need some new shocks. THEN take it for an alignment as you are probably toed-in quite a bit.

we compressed the spring, secured it, put it in, then uncompressed spring...very carefully of course.

 

[alekz]

Sway bar has everything to do with it. All the parts work as a system. Did you buy, or make, 3 inch extended mounts for the sway bar system? you really need those, or get some longer links to make up for the lift. The track bar more than likely need about and inch or so in more length.
Important note**** do not install the tracbar until you have everything else conected and the vehicle is on the ground. Then do exactly as Jeep instructs to "center" your setup.
Flex the car up and down..... basically bounce it from the bumper up and down.
then
Push it from a fender left to right a few times, making sure you really move the front end.
Then
Bounce the front again.
all this will center the whole kit and make adjusting the tracbar so easy.
For highway use, the sway bar must be connected. Those of us who dont have them conect and are "fine" are lucky that the system is currently aligned. I called Jeep about this problem and spoke to one of the guys whom designs the suspensions and he laid it our for me, along with telling me what page the instructions were on in my Helms manual.
I thought it was funny but it works perfectly.

Looks like sway bar was pulling bc of the offset axle, and I thought it might have something to do with it.

I'm not really sure if I need extended sway bar links or not, that's one of the questions I posted as well to see if I needed anything up front besides the springs. since I thought it was the sway bar and the links did seem pulled back, we put in some extra bushings in there as to not pull the sway bar further, semi-worked but I still need to find out if I need longer links or stock should work. seems that with most 3" lift kits they don't include links.

 

[alekz]

the whole sway bar thing, from personal experience, I don't think it causes DW, as I mentioned before, the old XJ I had had DW and the only thing I noticed in bad shape were the sway bar bushings, I bought them, but at the same time bought new tires. The new tires fixed the problem even before I got a chance to put in the bushings.

Thanks to everyone for their advice. I will update once I get the track bar and alignment done...hopefully that will solve the problems and nothing else got bent.

 

[alekz]

Forgot to ask, which track bar is recommended?

I've seen Rough Country or Rusty's so far, as I'm trying to keep it on the economical side. which of the 2 do you guys have experience with and like or should they both be about the same?