CobraMarty
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Thanks, the HDPE is just for the mockup. I can make changes and drill, thread and cut one out in minutes. Sorta like CAD- 'cardboard aided design'.
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XJ Front Brakes, BIG Brake Options
- Thread starter CobraMarty
- Start date
CobraMarty
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I just found 14" rotors, $135ea. Another upgrade.
- Location
- Torrance, CA
This thread is almost informative.
It starts out decently but is so heavily slanted toward Mustang falls very flat. Plus of the Mustang brakes it has very little information, I'm left having no idea how the Mustang calipers bolt to the old pattern knuckle.
You could really take this thread to the next level by doing a fair comparison, not a thinly veiled hit piece to cheerlead the direction you want to go. As somebody who has joke brakes on 35s I'd love to see a fair comparison of the options.
It starts out decently but is so heavily slanted toward Mustang falls very flat. Plus of the Mustang brakes it has very little information, I'm left having no idea how the Mustang calipers bolt to the old pattern knuckle.
You could really take this thread to the next level by doing a fair comparison, not a thinly veiled hit piece to cheerlead the direction you want to go. As somebody who has joke brakes on 35s I'd love to see a fair comparison of the options.
- Location
- Antioch, CA
I thought that was your "son's" Race XJ?
- Location
- Antioch, CA
This feels more like marketing for a big brake kit that will magically appear on Ebay in the near future.
rav
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Albany, NY
You guys need to relax, if it does show up on ebay and if it does improve the braking then I am not sure what the problem is... We are all here to learn and help from each other.
yossarian19
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Grass Valley, CA
The '13 Mustang uses a separate pad bracket, like this
The caliper bolts to the pad holder, pad holder to adapter, adapter to knuckle. The reason to use the old style knuckle as a base is that it already has two holes drilled for the purpose - the pad slider on the 84-89 models was separate from the rest of the knuckle. It's a fairly rigid brake caliper, a step behind lug-mounted but not bad.
The caliper bolts to the pad holder, pad holder to adapter, adapter to knuckle. The reason to use the old style knuckle as a base is that it already has two holes drilled for the purpose - the pad slider on the 84-89 models was separate from the rest of the knuckle. It's a fairly rigid brake caliper, a step behind lug-mounted but not bad.
- Location
- Torrance, CA
Agreed.
Because Marty knows full well our vendor rules but chooses not to follow them.
CobraMarty
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I am not and have not sold anything as a vendor. If I need to become a 'vendor' to post about what I am trying to build for myself, fine, Give me the info and I will become a vendor to end this line of accusations, but I am not interested in selling 'this product' which is not for sale.
Mine and my son's next project is a front and rear mounted hidden winch, behind the stock bumpers. This is not a commercial/business venture. This is ONLY for our own personal vehicles/enjoyment.
It's snowing out, going out to play in the snow in our jeeps. Everyone enjoy the weather and be safe.
Mine and my son's next project is a front and rear mounted hidden winch, behind the stock bumpers. This is not a commercial/business venture. This is ONLY for our own personal vehicles/enjoyment.
It's snowing out, going out to play in the snow in our jeeps. Everyone enjoy the weather and be safe.
Talyn
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Radford, Communistwealth of Virginia
T & J Performance offers several varieties of brake upgrades: http://www.tandrperformance.com/braking.html
CobraMarty
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Nice find T&R Performance
$expensive kits$
The key to their kits is
"T&R exclusive brand new USA made ductile iron disc brake steering knuckles with caliper mounting tabs (not machined stock knuckles so NO CORE CHARGES, returning old knuckles)"
ALL kits are for 99.5-06 'late' style unit/wheel bearings.
If have '84-'99.5- MUST replace/buy 'late' style unit/wheel bearing +$185
Kit 15" wheel- $780/$965 includes 11.25" rotors, T&R knuckles, dual 46mm caliper, greenstuff pads, SS brake lines :arrowr
similar to stock rotors with upgraded caliper)
Kit 16" wheel- $930/$1115 includes 12" rotors, T&R knuckles, dual 48mm caliper, greenstuff pads, SS brake lines, big bore master cylinder :arrowr:(similar to WJ knuckles, rotors and calipers without the steering)
Kit 16 Wilwood- $1400/$1585 includes 12.25" Wilwood rotors, Wilwood 4 piston calipers, T&R knuckles, SS brake line, big bore master cylinder, ?pads extra$ :arrowrsimilar to Boostwerks kit)
Kit 17" wheel- $1350/$1535 includes 13 1/8" rotors, T&R knuckles, dual 54mm caliper, greenstuff pads, SS brake lines, big bore master cylinder, caliper spacers :arrowr:(similar to Vanco's 17" wheel kit)
Kit 17" Wilwood- $1500/$1685 includes 13.1" rotors, T&R knuckles, Wilwood 4 piston caliper, SS brake lines, big bore master cylinder, ?pads extra$
$expensive kits$
The key to their kits is
"T&R exclusive brand new USA made ductile iron disc brake steering knuckles with caliper mounting tabs (not machined stock knuckles so NO CORE CHARGES, returning old knuckles)"
ALL kits are for 99.5-06 'late' style unit/wheel bearings.
If have '84-'99.5- MUST replace/buy 'late' style unit/wheel bearing +$185
Kit 15" wheel- $780/$965 includes 11.25" rotors, T&R knuckles, dual 46mm caliper, greenstuff pads, SS brake lines :arrowr
similar to stock rotors with upgraded caliper)Kit 16" wheel- $930/$1115 includes 12" rotors, T&R knuckles, dual 48mm caliper, greenstuff pads, SS brake lines, big bore master cylinder :arrowr:(similar to WJ knuckles, rotors and calipers without the steering)
Kit 16 Wilwood- $1400/$1585 includes 12.25" Wilwood rotors, Wilwood 4 piston calipers, T&R knuckles, SS brake line, big bore master cylinder, ?pads extra$ :arrowr
similar to Boostwerks kit)Kit 17" wheel- $1350/$1535 includes 13 1/8" rotors, T&R knuckles, dual 54mm caliper, greenstuff pads, SS brake lines, big bore master cylinder, caliper spacers :arrowr:(similar to Vanco's 17" wheel kit)
Kit 17" Wilwood- $1500/$1685 includes 13.1" rotors, T&R knuckles, Wilwood 4 piston caliper, SS brake lines, big bore master cylinder, ?pads extra$
Talyn
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Radford, Communistwealth of Virginia
He isn't selling a kit currently. He wasn't impressed with the performance of what he had.
O-Gauge Steamer
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Colorado Springs, Colorado
Well...
Truth is, quality is expensive. Pretty much you get what you pay for.
Having reviewed the brake kits that Talyn has referenced, I find the pricing to be very competitive. Given that all of the parts are new and not some Junk Yard cast offs.
The kits appear to be well thought out and contain some of the best components that are available. Up to and including Wilwood Calipers which are only second to Brembo.
To put this into perspective, go price a set of Brembo calipers and then tell me that these complete kits are expensive...
Bigger brakes are on the menu for my rig and these kits look top be a viable choice. Now I wish I had gone with 17" rims instead of the 16"...
Some of us here use new parts instead of scavenging at the yard.
Truth is, quality is expensive. Pretty much you get what you pay for.
Having reviewed the brake kits that Talyn has referenced, I find the pricing to be very competitive. Given that all of the parts are new and not some Junk Yard cast offs.
The kits appear to be well thought out and contain some of the best components that are available. Up to and including Wilwood Calipers which are only second to Brembo.
To put this into perspective, go price a set of Brembo calipers and then tell me that these complete kits are expensive...
Bigger brakes are on the menu for my rig and these kits look top be a viable choice. Now I wish I had gone with 17" rims instead of the 16"...
Some of us here use new parts instead of scavenging at the yard.
yossarian19
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Grass Valley, CA
I agree that quality usually does cost.
The WJ swap isn't for everyone and even when done "correctly", still loses hub mounting strength vs the original WJ or XJ setups.
T&R and Vanco are reasonably priced for what they are. Very cool stuff, especially T&R's knuckle. Does away with the adapter bracket & the need to machine on OE parts.
I don't think I $1,000 like it, though. I mean, if I had more money available, sure. Under 30 and working under table while waiting on the new semester, with a wedding in may? Not happening.
That said - why do people seem to object to Marty using some plate and some (gasp) used parts to make a brake upgrade happen? I'm planning on eventually doing the same with Crown Victoria parts... It seems to me that if you leave enough material around the bolts and use 4 attachment points you are already ahead of some commercial products I've seen, and probably matching Vanco's early product exactly.
Everything "chassis" does need to be undertaken with caution but buying from a vendor doesn't guarantee quality, either. DIY has brought Jeeps quite a lot over the years...
ok done ranting.
The WJ swap isn't for everyone and even when done "correctly", still loses hub mounting strength vs the original WJ or XJ setups.
T&R and Vanco are reasonably priced for what they are. Very cool stuff, especially T&R's knuckle. Does away with the adapter bracket & the need to machine on OE parts.
I don't think I $1,000 like it, though. I mean, if I had more money available, sure. Under 30 and working under table while waiting on the new semester, with a wedding in may? Not happening.
That said - why do people seem to object to Marty using some plate and some (gasp) used parts to make a brake upgrade happen? I'm planning on eventually doing the same with Crown Victoria parts... It seems to me that if you leave enough material around the bolts and use 4 attachment points you are already ahead of some commercial products I've seen, and probably matching Vanco's early product exactly.
Everything "chassis" does need to be undertaken with caution but buying from a vendor doesn't guarantee quality, either. DIY has brought Jeeps quite a lot over the years...
ok done ranting.
CobraMarty
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'New parts' tomorrow are used parts.
I am talking about using 5 mile take-offs, OEM factory Ford parts 2014 Mustang delivered and parts removed. Hardly JY cast offs.
No Centric of China rotors.
And I disagree with 'quality is expensive and you get what you pay for' That's a bunch of BS. Quantity production costs does not produce an inferior product. Ford makes a million pieces and Brembo makes a thousand. Which is better and which is less expensive? More expensive just pads some guys wallet very, very well.
NEW Brembo 4 piston calipers, 14" rotors, pads and lines are $1107 which are for Shelby GT500, no slouch or lack or quality there, for those interested.
The T&R KIT 16" with 12.25" Wilwood rotors, Wilwood 4 piston calipers is what Boostwerks was using and 'He isn't selling a kit currently. He wasn't impressed with the performance of what he had'.
I just think $1000-$1500 big brake kits for Jeeps is crazy and price gouging. There are options.
Pictures to follow.
I am talking about using 5 mile take-offs, OEM factory Ford parts 2014 Mustang delivered and parts removed. Hardly JY cast offs.
No Centric of China rotors.
And I disagree with 'quality is expensive and you get what you pay for' That's a bunch of BS. Quantity production costs does not produce an inferior product. Ford makes a million pieces and Brembo makes a thousand. Which is better and which is less expensive? More expensive just pads some guys wallet very, very well.
NEW Brembo 4 piston calipers, 14" rotors, pads and lines are $1107 which are for Shelby GT500, no slouch or lack or quality there, for those interested.
The T&R KIT 16" with 12.25" Wilwood rotors, Wilwood 4 piston calipers is what Boostwerks was using and 'He isn't selling a kit currently. He wasn't impressed with the performance of what he had'.
I just think $1000-$1500 big brake kits for Jeeps is crazy and price gouging. There are options.
Pictures to follow.
yossarian19
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Grass Valley, CA
Also, side note : T&R is, if I'm not much mistaken, using Crown Vic & Mustang parts in their upgrades. It's a popular component group, I think, because it's already 5x4.5, dual piston and the calipers are easy build adapters for. I suspect one or two reasons for using late model hubs, too : more TJ guys already own them and / or rotor placement for their castings. Not sure if that last translates to anything useful.
CobraMarty
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Ordered the 1/2" steel for the brackets. I will drill and carve by hand. Waiting for a 3" flapper to 'bore' out the rotor center hole just a small amount, like 0.020-0.030". Want to try the flapper rather than dremel/grinding/porting tool. Want to keep it round and tight for the 'hubcentric'. Got the grade 8 bolts in.
I am going to use new '99.5+ timken unit/hub bearings, new upper and lower ball joints (lower with 2.57 degree offset), new hub bolts and all grade 8 hardware.
Picked up some JY brake hoses to check fitment or if I need to get new SS hoses made. Have to order and p/u some new mustang banjo bolts and washers at the ford dealer.
Last to paint the knuckles black and the rotor center and caliper and bracket red.
Just a bunch of some little stuff and waiting to get thru the holidays and the weather to cooperate.
Now do I use the 13.2" rotors or the 14" rotors and put the 13.2s on the back?
Try boltdepot.com for all your hardware needs. They have a great selection. Easy to use website.
I am going to use new '99.5+ timken unit/hub bearings, new upper and lower ball joints (lower with 2.57 degree offset), new hub bolts and all grade 8 hardware.
Picked up some JY brake hoses to check fitment or if I need to get new SS hoses made. Have to order and p/u some new mustang banjo bolts and washers at the ford dealer.
Last to paint the knuckles black and the rotor center and caliper and bracket red.
Just a bunch of some little stuff and waiting to get thru the holidays and the weather to cooperate.
Now do I use the 13.2" rotors or the 14" rotors and put the 13.2s on the back?
Try boltdepot.com for all your hardware needs. They have a great selection. Easy to use website.
MoparManiac
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Amherst, NH
Off-topic but I find McMaster has the best selection of bolts personally.
Plus even though they usually require you to buy a box of them, it's usually not that expensive (depending on what you need) and it never hurts to have spare hardware.
Plus even though they usually require you to buy a box of them, it's usually not that expensive (depending on what you need) and it never hurts to have spare hardware.
CobraMarty
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The only real difference between the early hubs and the late '99.5+ hubs is that the early hubs are 0.20-0.22" taller and require that much additional spacing out of the adapter bracket. I have a new set of Timken late and early hubs I bought just for this mockup. If I design for the later '99.5+ then all I need to do is add the 0.20-0.22" spacer for the early hubs. If I did it the other way around, designed for the early hubs, I would have to 'take off' some from the spacer.
It is hard to say which are more plentiful in numbers (probably early type) or which would want to spend for the bigger front brakes (probably later type, ? more available $). IDK.
From what I can tell, all the other kits are using 3/8" for the adapter pieces and some even use aluminum. IDK if that is b/c 3/8" is the thickest that most Laser cutters can cut? I bought some 1/2" mild steel 1018 cold rolled flat bar for the adapter brackets I am making. I will drill and form them by hand.
Thanks MM, I will look at McMaster's for my bolt needs next time.
It looks like the stock or extended XJ brake lines will bolt to the mustang caliper using the mustang banjo bolt. The XJ banjo bolt doesn't fit the mustang caliper, wrong threading/size.
And for all those concerned, there is really no product here to sell. I bought everything online, even the steel, and the only key piece is the adapter bracket.
I believe in 'open source' and sharing info. I will put these simple brackets out there, 'open source'.
But that doesn't mean that someone who doesn't want to put in the time and effort to round up all the parts and build their own brackets wouldn't pay 'extra' for the effort of putting it all together for them.
JCR and others make the very simple steering box triangle spacer piece and I will buy that for $39 not because it is only worth $5 in steel but because I don't feel like making one myself.
'lower ball joints (lower with 2.57 degree offset)'
Oops,I meant 2.75 degree offset.
It is hard to say which are more plentiful in numbers (probably early type) or which would want to spend for the bigger front brakes (probably later type, ? more available $). IDK.
From what I can tell, all the other kits are using 3/8" for the adapter pieces and some even use aluminum. IDK if that is b/c 3/8" is the thickest that most Laser cutters can cut? I bought some 1/2" mild steel 1018 cold rolled flat bar for the adapter brackets I am making. I will drill and form them by hand.
Thanks MM, I will look at McMaster's for my bolt needs next time.
It looks like the stock or extended XJ brake lines will bolt to the mustang caliper using the mustang banjo bolt. The XJ banjo bolt doesn't fit the mustang caliper, wrong threading/size.
And for all those concerned, there is really no product here to sell. I bought everything online, even the steel, and the only key piece is the adapter bracket.
I believe in 'open source' and sharing info. I will put these simple brackets out there, 'open source'.
But that doesn't mean that someone who doesn't want to put in the time and effort to round up all the parts and build their own brackets wouldn't pay 'extra' for the effort of putting it all together for them.
JCR and others make the very simple steering box triangle spacer piece and I will buy that for $39 not because it is only worth $5 in steel but because I don't feel like making one myself.
'lower ball joints (lower with 2.57 degree offset)'
Oops,I meant 2.75 degree offset.
CobraMarty
NAXJA Forum User
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Decided to go with the 14" front rotors off the Mustang GT500.
What is it 'Go Big or Go Home', the work is the same for the 13.2" or the 14" rotors.
I have 18" Mustang Cobra wheels already, so clearance won't be an issue. They actually look like they might clear 17" wheels.
Had to remake the adapter bracket for the third time to fit the 14" rotors. Thank goodness the HDPE is easy to work and prototype with. Now to just make the adapter pieces in 1/2" thick metal and get the spacers machined and order a few more grade 8 pieces. Stock XJ brake lines will work, just have to slightly enlarge the hole for a 10mm banjo bolt.
I want to thank Yossarian19 for his help and insight. I have read all of the 'big brake threads', some 5-6 years old, and he has posted on most of them. He has brought up some great points and suggestions.
Pics to come, just have to upload them to photobucket.
Parts list- 14" Big Brake Upgrade
-Early XJ knuckles New $165pr Used $80pr
-2014 Mustang GT calipers and pads, 5 mile takeoffs $100pr
-14" Mustang GT500 rotors $155pr ($105 premium over 13.2" rotors)
-Mustang 10mm banjo bolts $12pr
-Misc grade 8 hardware $30?
-HDPE for mockup $20, 1/2" cold rolled steel $20
I also got some other new parts, not needed for the upgrade, that I will use. Late style Timken unit bearings, Moog ball joints, lower with 2.75* offset for added camber and lower threaded insert for the ball joint with 0.25* offset (total 3* negative camber).
What is it 'Go Big or Go Home', the work is the same for the 13.2" or the 14" rotors.
I have 18" Mustang Cobra wheels already, so clearance won't be an issue. They actually look like they might clear 17" wheels.
Had to remake the adapter bracket for the third time to fit the 14" rotors. Thank goodness the HDPE is easy to work and prototype with. Now to just make the adapter pieces in 1/2" thick metal and get the spacers machined and order a few more grade 8 pieces. Stock XJ brake lines will work, just have to slightly enlarge the hole for a 10mm banjo bolt.
I want to thank Yossarian19 for his help and insight. I have read all of the 'big brake threads', some 5-6 years old, and he has posted on most of them. He has brought up some great points and suggestions.
Pics to come, just have to upload them to photobucket.
Parts list- 14" Big Brake Upgrade
-Early XJ knuckles New $165pr Used $80pr
-2014 Mustang GT calipers and pads, 5 mile takeoffs $100pr
-14" Mustang GT500 rotors $155pr ($105 premium over 13.2" rotors)
-Mustang 10mm banjo bolts $12pr
-Misc grade 8 hardware $30?
-HDPE for mockup $20, 1/2" cold rolled steel $20
I also got some other new parts, not needed for the upgrade, that I will use. Late style Timken unit bearings, Moog ball joints, lower with 2.75* offset for added camber and lower threaded insert for the ball joint with 0.25* offset (total 3* negative camber).
