Worn axles then worn differentail ring

[Tonybeirut]

Good morning, this is my 1st post for a problem , i didn't find answers at any previous post for my problem so here i am asking here maybe i get help.

I have xj country 1994 with 4.56 USA standard gears and arb locks (on chrysler 8.25 / 27 spline). 250k on it.

I heard a metal friction sound from the right rear end when cornering to the right.
Found out that the edge of the axle at the brake side was touching the drum brake.
So the mechanic Removed the axles and both were worn at the top end side (after the c-clip / the part that touches the cross pin in the carrier)

The shop changed the axles and inserted them without removing the ring and pinion , he checked the backlash and settings all were ok.
I noticed that the axle top end was touching the cross pin (both axles end laying on it).
The cross pin is with a full notch (top to bottom).

I Drove the jeep for about 40 miles then a whining sound came from the gears on acceleration and deceleration.
Opened the diff next day and the ring was worn plus silver color of metal found in the newly changed oil. (oil was also with black color)

I will buy and ship new ring and pinion and install it but im afraid to have the same problem again.

The mechanic said that it was the pinion bearings that made the pinion move and caused the ring to wear, when the axles were worn they released the pressure on the faulty pinion bearings and when they were fixed the pressure returned to the faulty pinion bearing and made the pinion move to affect the ring.

Anybody had this issue before or any idea what caused the ring to wear so i can check it before installing new gears set?

Is it normal for the axles end (after the c-clip) to touch the cross pin on both sides when the jeep is parked (not driven)?

Thank you

 

[VAhasnoWAVES]

Is it normal for the axles end (after the c-clip) to touch the cross pin on both sides when the jeep is parked (not driven)?

yes.



the extra pressure on the carrier/gear set being relieved when the shaft was fixed sounds plausible. but I think the pressure in the manner you described would have come from a completely garbage wheel bearing. that would be what let the flange on the axle shaft find the brake drum.

 

[Tonybeirut]

yes.



the extra pressure on the carrier/gear set being relieved when the shaft was fixed sounds plausible. but I think the pressure in the manner you described would have come from a completely garbage wheel bearing. that would be what let the flange on the axle shaft find the brake drum.

Mechanic said both wheel bearings on both axle shafts were fine and I didn't hear any noise coming from those before the problem occurred. My new ring and pinion were perfect for 7 month without any sound coming out of them. He said it's the bad pinion bearings who made the pinion displace and wear the ring. If it was the Pinion bearings as he said I should have hear a noise before and after the axles swap right?

 

[VAhasnoWAVES]

So the mechanic Removed the axles and both were worn at the top end side (after the c-clip / the part that touches the cross pin in the carrier)

The shop changed the axles and inserted them without removing the ring and pinion , he checked the backlash and settings all were ok.
I noticed that the axle top end was touching the cross pin (both axles end laying on it).
The cross pin is with a full notch (top to bottom).

I am still stuck on this.

in my experience, the face on the end of the axle shaft (after the C-clip) contacts the cross shaft evenly. if your axle shafts are cocked and the wheel bearings are good, the housing may be bent.

 

[cal]

Pictures may help here, but I have a hard time thinking changing the axles had any effect on anything.

 

[Tonybeirut]

Pictures may help here, but I have a hard time thinking changing the axles had any effect on anything.

How can I upload pics here I couldn't find the attachem link like other forums.

 

[cal]

Good thread on how to for images here:

http://northamericanxjassociation.org/forum/showthread.php?t=898992

 

[Tonybeirut]

Good thread on how to for images here:

Did my best, here are the pics.



http://s350.photobucket.com/user/to...0-43d0-ae34-935c99cd6eb5_zpsen9n1acr.jpg.html

 

[cal]

My question; what is this piece of metal and why is it there at all?

I have never seen it before, and I don't know that it belongs there.

Should look like this in there:

Maybe somebody else knows and can enlighten me.

 

[cal]

n/m. Somehow I forgot that you had an ARB in there.

Looks like possible carrier failure to me?

 

[Tonybeirut]

n/m. Somehow I forgot that you had an ARB in there.

Looks like possible carrier failure to me?

I Noticed that the cross pin is displaced to the right dunno if this is normal (photo circled in red). If it is displaced maybe the axle end was faulty and over pressured in the cross pin and moved the carrier with the ring gear with it to the right.
im just trying to give myself some explanation why the ring gear is worn after changing the axles.

 

[cal]

I can't believe the axle would push the carrier to the right.

I could believe that whoever set the axle up did not properly lock the adjusters down, and the carrier was capable of moving to the right.

 

[RWKHausSupply]

few observations maybe.
Wrong cross shaft installed.
No care was given to use the correct C'Clips (Arb for that application comes with a bag if different thickness).
Improper preload on the carrier when first setup.

And i'm lost on what your meaning or describing I think on the axle touching the brake drum? The brake drum slides on to the studs and then center pilot of the axle? If you are poss meaning housing, then it would likely be axle and axle bearings (NEVER replace one and not the other on a C-Clip axle setup). If it was at the top only?

If you replace a bearing, Why? The bearing is interference fit in to the housing snout, then the axle shaft is the inner race. So, if you have a bad bearing, the odds of the shaft being damaged, is about 99%. Like replacing a bad pinion bearing without replacing the race for it.

 

[Tonybeirut]

I can't believe the axle would push the carrier to the right.

I could believe that whoever set the axle up did not properly lock the adjusters down, and the carrier was capable of moving to the right.

He didn't disassemble the adjusters to remove the axles. Just the c clips and the cross pin.
can you please check the pics and see if the c clips are loose and not in place? should they move with the axles when the axles go in and out ?

Thank you for your replies , appreciated

 

[Tonybeirut]

few observations maybe.
Wrong cross shaft installed.
No care was given to use the correct C'Clips (Arb for that application comes with a bag if different thickness).
Improper preload on the carrier when first setup.

And i'm lost on what your meaning or describing I think on the axle touching the brake drum? The brake drum slides on to the studs and then center pilot of the axle ? If you are poss meaning housing, then it would likely be axle and axle bearings (NEVER replace one and not the other on a C-Clip axle setup). If it was at the top only?

If you replace a bearing, Why? The bearing is interference fit in to the housing snout, then the axle shaft is the inner race. So, if you have a bad bearing, the odds of the shaft being damaged, is about 99%. Like replacing a bad pinion bearing without replacing the race for it.

The gears were perfect before changing the axle (for 7 month), i lost the ring gear after changing axles.

The right axle was touching the brake drum housing when cornering to the right, when we installed the new axles it was still touching it a little bit (we could still hear friction sound when right cornering). The mechanic removed the right drum and said there was rust and gum on it and removed the rust by grinding it using a precision grinding machine from inside (dunno from where he did the grinding). After grinding we didint hear any friction noise.
Bearings were not replaced at that point (but now i shipped a set of Master Overhaul Kit with Koyo Bearings and new c-clips from rock auto along with the gears and i will change them)

Shall i understanding that the mechanic is right at this point? He said when we replaced the axles and filled the gap which the worn ones made, the pressure on the bad bearings made carrier move by fraction of an inch and thats why the ring gear got the wear. He said it was a bad bearing from the start.

 

[RWKHausSupply]

So you DID replace the axles without replacing the Axle bearings?
And still cant figure out and you didnt answer, so hard to guess. What was rubbing where? The axle can in no way (unless there is Major and odd damage that is far worst than anything you are explaining and I have never seen), can the "right axle was touching the brake drum housing" Maybe you mean (I asked this once but wasnt answered) the drum backing plate was touching the brake drum? And if that was it, then was it only at the top or all the way around?

This is all over the place.

 

[dan1977p]

1: Pictures of all the things you're describing will help all of us really understand what you're saying
2: Not an insult at all, but is English not your primary language? I work with a lot of off shore folks and I look at what they are saying differently than I would a native English speaker.
3: If it was me (especially since I would do this in my garage) I would treat this axle like a fresh install. New master install kit for the carrier/pinion, new outer seals and bearings, reset the gears and even rebuild the brakes if they are causing issues. Check the axle housing for straightness before doing anything, because if it's bent, there's not much point in trying to put new parts in something that will destroy them shortly thereafter.
4: If a rebuild didn't fix your issue, a new ring and pinion should probably be installed. I may even consider doing that anyway so you don't have to set the old gears and then set the new ones. Gears are cheap compared to that ARB you have them installed on.

 

[Tonybeirut]

1: Pictures of all the things you're describing will help all of us really understand what you're saying
2: Not an insult at all, but is English not your primary language? I work with a lot of off shore folks and I look at what they are saying differently than I would a native English speaker.
3: If it was me (especially since I would do this in my garage) I would treat this axle like a fresh install. New master install kit for the carrier/pinion, new outer seals and bearings, reset the gears and even rebuild the brakes if they are causing issues. Check the axle housing for straightness before doing anything, because if it's bent, there's not much point in trying to put new parts in something that will destroy them shortly thereafter.
4: If a rebuild didn't fix your issue, a new ring and pinion should probably be installed. I may even consider doing that anyway so you don't have to set the old gears and then set the new ones. Gears are cheap compared to that ARB you have them installed on.

http://s350.photobucket.com/user/to...0-43d0-ae34-935c99cd6eb5_zpsen9n1acr.jpg.html

Those are pics I could take when checking the differential after the ring was worn.

Yes I'm from Lebanon. English is not perfect sorry.
I did buy and ship new ring and pinion from rockauto with a master rebuild kit they arrived today.
My 1st ring and pinion sets for front and rear was also bought from them last Christmas but I didn't change any bearing.
I'm buying and installing USA standard gears brand again.

 

[Tonybeirut]

So you DID replace the axles without replacing the Axle bearings?
And still cant figure out and you didnt answer, so hard to guess. What was rubbing where? The axle can in no way (unless there is Major and odd damage that is far worst than anything you are explaining and I have never seen), can the "right axle was touching the brake drum housing" Maybe you mean (I asked this once but wasnt answered) the drum backing plate was touching the brake drum? And if that was it, then was it only at the top or all the way around?

This is all over the place.

My English is not perfect im trying to find the exact words.

No I didn't replace the bearings when I replaced the axles.
The mechanic said they are still good.
And he said the axle flange or studs is touching the brake drum (the housing that covers the brake) cause the axles are worn (after the c clip) and they are slipping on cornering. (I couldn't understand this part of explanation theorically)
So he grinded the brake drum (all Around from inside) and the friction sound when cornering to the right went away.

Rear Brakes are brand new. Cylinders also.

 

[TRCM]

The gears were perfect before changing the axle (for 7 month), i lost the ring gear after changing axles.

The right axle was touching the brake drum housing when cornering to the right, when we installed the new axles it was still touching it a little bit (we could still hear friction sound when right cornering). The mechanic removed the right drum and said there was rust and gum on it and removed the rust by grinding it using a precision grinding machine from inside (dunno from where he did the grinding). After grinding we didint hear any friction noise.
Bearings were not replaced at that point (but now i shipped a set of Master Overhaul Kit with Koyo Bearings and new c-clips from rock auto along with the gears and i will change them)

Shall i understanding that the mechanic is right at this point? He said when we replaced the axles and filled the gap which the worn ones made, the pressure on the bad bearings made carrier move by fraction of an inch and thats why the ring gear got the wear. He said it was a bad bearing from the start.

At this point, no I am not sure I would trust the mechanic.

1) The 'new' axles would not move the carrier by putting pressure on the bearings...the axles have a certain degree of float to them normally, and they can move in & out up to 1/8". So if their was any pressure being generated, the axle would just move to get rid of it.

2) Yes, the c-clips will move with the axle....push the axle in till it hits the center pin, and that is how you remove the c-clip....pull it out sharply, and that's how you seat the c-clip.

3) There should be a gap between the center pin & the axle ends once the c-clips are seated (axles pulled all the way out until they seat)

4) The axle SHOULD touch the brake drum housing, as the drum mounts ON the axle. Now, the axle should NOT touch the backing plate, but if the axle is touching the backing plate, you HAVE NO axle bearings...they are gone. I am not sure what or where you are saying they are touching (axle & drum)

5) I'm not sure what is going on from your description and the pics, but you got something wrong, and I can't see just changing axles causing this.

My English is not perfect im trying to find the exact words.

No I didn't replace the bearings when I replaced the axles.
The mechanic said they are still good.
And he said the axle flange or studs is touching the brake drum (the housing that covers the brake) cause the axles are worn (after the c clip) and they are slipping on cornering. (I couldn't understand this part of explanation theorically)
So he grinded the brake drum (all Around from inside) and the friction sound when cornering to the right went away.

Rear Brakes are brand new. Cylinders also.

The axle flange/studs is where/how the drum mounts to the axle

Not sure on the "worn after the c-clips" or the "slipping when cornering" statements

and if you grind the brake drum on the inside all the way around, you basically make the drum large enough that the brakes aren't touching it, so yes, any sound would go away.....

do your rear brakes even work now ???????