which one would you do? Weld or aussie locker

[Rawbrown]

Very well put. although I don't think delicate is the right word. Try anal! seriously, you have to be anal when setting up gears. The phrase "good enough for goverment work!" can not be used cuz if you F it up your stuck quite possibly on the trail. Not saying that to keep you from doing your own gears or nothing, just be prepared for it to take alot of time on your first couple of axles.

Depends on if you have the proper tools. Id recomend you sit down with someone whos done it before and watch them do it for the first time before you jump head first into re-gearing. Its a VERY delicate opperation that requires alot of patients and perfection to work properly.

 

[Rawbrown]

Yes it is when the person thats regearing your axle for $200 has a good standing reputation... :wave:
depending on the axles, the cost of tools to do the job right can exeed that $400.

i know i really want someone else to do my gears but i really dont have the money so do you think i should just wait longer to get the money or do it myself i mean is it really worth 200 bucks for someone else to do it?

thanx for all the input this thread has really helped :0

 

[88rockxj]

Yes it is when the person thats regearing your axle for $200 has a good standing reputation...

one way to find out is ask them if they preload the axle shafts while checking the pattern, if they look confused or say no find somone else.

 

[Rawbrown]

if driven correctly a welded frt will break LESS joints then a non welded frt, and my reasoning behind that statement is the fact that with an open diff all of your power goes to one joint instead of spreading the load between both joints.

that being said majority of people break more with a welded frt becuase along with it comes bigger tires and different driving style and attempting harder obstacles.

:wow: :nono: :gee: :banghead: :explosion
WOW that's a major misconcetion.
Time for a little diff lesson...
we all know that power takes the path of least resistance...Rrrrrrriiiigghhtt?
in an open diff on flat pavement the path of least resistance is equal on both sides so power is transfered evenly to both wheels. each wheel assumes approximatly 50% of the power. when traction is lost at one wheel then that becomes the path of least resistance.
a spool on the other hand transfers 100% of the power to both wheels. There is no differentiation. if one wheel has no resistance, it still sees 100% of the power as well as the tire still on the ground.
a selectable locker is actually a selectable spool, its either open or spooled. Except for Detroit electrac and auburn Ected which are limited slip based.
an automatic locker works by not allowing an axle to travel slower than the ring gear, but an axle can "unlock" and spin faster than the ring gear like when going through a turm. Then when you straighten out the ring gear catches back up to match the speed of the outside wheel and it locks back up as power is applied. a spool is the hardest on an axle shaft becuase its a hard coupling. There is no give. an axleshaft is stressed in both directions more often than a locker. Thats because everytime you turn, the wheels try and differentiate. the outside will try and spin faster and the inside slower. then as the threshold is reach, traction at one tire is lost and that wheel snaps or springs forward. then you turn the other way and its cycled the opposite way. Its this regular cycling in both directions that leads to fatigue and eventually a broken shaft.
a locker will at least allow differentiation to some degree.

 

[Rawbrown]

Ditto

Lunchbox lockers to not fail enough to call welded spiders more reliable? I'll concede that they may not be less reliable.

As far as more consistant handling goes, that has NOT been my experiance, but even if it has been yours, it does not validate it as 'good advice' to someone just learning about life with lockers.

 

[Rawbrown]

Less moving parts, no springs or pins to break or fail, no gears or teeth to wear out, less peices....how is that not simpler and more reliable?
-------Less shafts to break. less chance of a poor weld and bigger chance of weak internals due to the gears loss of heat treatment. Yes internals are hardened and when you weld them you soften the metal.


Handling is more consistant, plain and simple...there is no ratcheting, no unlocking and locking without warning...its ALWAYS locked...how are you not calling that consistant? Have you ever actually ran a spool or lincoln locker???
----------Think front axle. a LB locker will not have those traits unless the housing is bent. and thats only on the trail. in the rear, the drivability of a spool is still unpredicable simply due to road conditions. and your more likely to break a spooled shaft on the street vs an auto locker

Ive got a lock-right in the front of mine and i hate it...have had nothing but problems with lunchbox's from the beginning. Assuming that the weld job was done correctly, id take one anyday over a lunchbox locker...a full carrier replacement locker(full detroit) is a totally different story.
----------then feel free to weld up your front diff and tell me how it drives...

Im not giving advice here...im telling my experiences...you guys can take them with a grain of salt.[/QUOTE]

 

[Rawbrown]

one way to find out is ask them if they preload the axle shafts while checking the pattern, if they look confused or say no find somone else.

preload the axles? Please show me where thats hilighted in any gear manufacturers install instruction... Its not!
are you talking about loading the axleshafts into the housing when checking the pattern?
I've got a better way to find out if a gear installer is good or not. try the search function, or simply ask the question. I good installer has a good reputation and will get several recomendations.

 

[88rockxj]

im very aware of exactley how a differential works but you have to reconsider where i said an open diff causes you to rely on your momentum for the very reasons you listed, all the power goes to the wheel that does not have traction and it spins very fast then when it hits traction it will snap. more people break with welded spiders because they dont use them properly and DONT leave them unlocked untill you need them. its by far not the bets solution and in alot of cases a lunch box locker is better but for the cheapo do it yourself get it done wanna go wheelin guy theres nothing better then what i described

 

[88rockxj]

preload the axles? Please show me where thats hilighted in any gear manufacturers install instruction... Its not!
are you talking about loading the axleshafts into the housing when checking the pattern?
I've got a better way to find out if a gear installer is good or not. try the search function, or simply ask the question. I good installer has a good reputation and will get several recomendations.

try checking out pirate4x4.com theres a guy on there that goes by the user name billavista, he does loads of research

hes the one that i read that from, read his articles they will explain it much better then me. but im sure you know more then he does since you use the search button. you honestly think naxja has write ups or feed back for all the different cities in this country and all the different people that set up gears? so you just ask the guys name and then come to naxja and ask everyone if hes good or not? your answer applys to very little people, my questions is a good technical question that you can ask ANY person that wants your money to set up gears.

 

[Rawbrown]

im very aware of exactley how a differential works but you have to reconsider where i said an open diff causes you to rely on your momentum for the very reasons you listed, all the power goes to the wheel that does not have traction and it spins very fast then when it hits traction it will snap. more people break with welded spiders because they dont use them properly and DONT leave them unlocked untill you need them. its by far not the bets solution and in alot of cases a lunch box locker is better but for the cheapo do it yourself get it done wanna go wheelin guy theres nothing better then what i described

There are alot more variables to consider. things like terrain, how stuck or wedged is the other wheel? are the wheels turned? and sure, the same applies to a welded front axle. but consider this, if one wheel is spinning and it catches, the other one might start spinning. but typically youll take your foot off the gas. because if your on the power and 3 wheels are spinning your either not going anywhere or it catches and you imediatly take your foot of the gas to keep you from launching too fast or too far.
If one tire is wedged and you get on the gas, then the other tire will spin. Now if a spooled axle gets wedged and you get on the gas... snap.
the bottom line is what has everyone seen more shafts break, open diffs or traction device diffs? "Billy in the back... Thats correct, traction device diffs."
In an open diff the power can go either way, in a spooled diff, it will go both ways. 100% to each wheel.
And how many folks have the luxury of unlocking a back wheel? how about a front wheel? the majority of this groups has D30's and no lockout hubs. so its not likely that anyone can leave there axle unlocked until they need it.

 

[Rawbrown]

try checking out pirate4x4.com theres a guy on there that goes by the user name billavista, he does loads of research

hes the one that i read that from, read his articles they will explain it much better then me. but im sure you know more then he does since you use the search button. you honestly think naxja has write ups or feed back for all the different cities in this country and all the different people that set up gears? so you just ask the guys name and then come to naxja and ask everyone if hes good or not? your answer applys to very little people, my questions is a good technical question that you can ask ANY person that wants your money to set up gears.

Yes I am aware of Billavista. I respect him because he does a crapload of research and comes up with infinite amounts of Data. But he is not a gear installer nor a gear mfg, or is he an engineer for a gear MFG? NO!
I'm not saying that I know more than he does.
Asking someone if they preload the axle shafts? Thats funny, I've never been asked that let alone does the question make any sense to me. preloading the pinion or preloading the carrier bearings yes. and whether the shafts are in or not when taking a pattern has no effect on the outcome of that pattern.
Instead, ask for a reference and check it one recent and one old. like over a year. Ask the local 4wd club.
There are alot of people to ask.
but this needs to be on a new thread.
open is more reliable than a spooled front axle.

 

[Goatman]

A couple of you guys need to face reality. Welded front diffs are lame, pure and simple. You can try to justify it anyway you want, but they are still lame. I would be embarrased to tell anyone I was running one.

A welded front (spool) will stress the axles and u-joints more than an automatic locker because it can't differentiate like an auto locker will.

A spool in the front will be harder to turn than an auto locker, again because the locker will allow differentiation. An auto locker will turn better than a spool, and an open diff will turn better than an auto locker.

If you only wheel in soft surfaced terrain, like mostly mud, maybe it's not quite so lame, but if you wheel in rocks, like we have a ton of in So Cal, it is very lame. It is especially lame in a D30.

 

[88rockxj]

There are alot more variables to consider. things like terrain, how stuck or wedged is the other wheel? are the wheels turned? and sure, the same applies to a welded front axle. but consider this, if one wheel is spinning and it catches, the other one might start spinning. but typically youll take your foot off the gas. because if your on the power and 3 wheels are spinning your either not going anywhere or it catches and you imediatly take your foot of the gas to keep you from launching too fast or too far.
If one tire is wedged and you get on the gas, then the other tire will spin. Now if a spooled axle gets wedged and you get on the gas... snap.
the bottom line is what has everyone seen more shafts break, open diffs or traction device diffs? "Billy in the back... Thats correct, traction device diffs."
In an open diff the power can go either way, in a spooled diff, it will go both ways. 100% to each wheel.
And how many folks have the luxury of unlocking a back wheel? how about a front wheel? the majority of this groups has D30's and no lockout hubs. so its not likely that anyone can leave there axle unlocked until they need it.

alot of d30s have vac discos that you can hook a cable up to, which is the only d30 i would weld. it all comes down to if youre willing to unlock it all the time and drive as if you have a welded frt and a d30. its not the best but it works for some and i just personaly wouldnt want to spend money towards a d30 when i could save it towards a decent axle to start with.

 

[88rockxj]

Yes I am aware of Billavista. I respect him because he does a crapload of research and comes up with infinite amounts of Data. But he is not a gear installer nor a gear mfg, or is he an engineer for a gear MFG? NO!
I'm not saying that I know more than he does.
Asking someone if they preload the axle shafts? Thats funny, I've never been asked that let alone does the question make any sense to me. preloading the pinion or preloading the carrier bearings yes. and whether the shafts are in or not when taking a pattern has no effect on the outcome of that pattern.
Instead, ask for a reference and check it one recent and one old. like over a year. Ask the local 4wd club.
There are alot of people to ask.
but this needs to be on a new thread.
open is more reliable than a spooled front axle.

like i said theres thousands of cities in this country and thousands of people that setup gears, you cant always ask somone and a quick way to see if somone knows what thier doing is to ask them a technical question, wether you agree with my question i chose to ask or not.


metal plastiques, your pattern will change(perhaps not enough to harm anything) and under extreme loads it will deflect and could possibly cause failure. i think putting a load on your gears,wether you do it with the axle shafts or not, while checking the pattern is the proper way to set up gears. ill definately be handing out that same exact information when ever i feel the need to

 

[Rawbrown]

alot of d30s have vac discos that you can hook a cable up to, which is the only d30 i would weld. it all comes down to if youre willing to unlock it all the time and drive as if you have a welded frt and a d30. its not the best but it works for some and i just personaly wouldnt want to spend money towards a d30 when i could save it towards a decent axle to start with.

your saying that the D30 isn't a decent axle? Wow, that means that everyone that wheels with 33"s and 35"s have crappy D30's. Wow its such a piece of junk that It shouldn't be allowed on trails like the hammers... right?
Funny how I just did wrecking ball behind Goatman and a whole group that had locked D30's. we had one broken shaft D30 shaft in the whole group. and most of us were on 35"s. Wow, a locked HP D30 is such a piece.
how about this then. Goatman is a well respected wheeler. he organizes events that are covered by magazines and he personally leads the trails. He has been around the trail more than a few times and has probably seen it all. He wheels many of the most notorious trails in the nation covering much of the southwest. He will not allow a welded Diff on a trail run that he is leading and he has his reasons behind it.
The bottom line is that there is no justification for welding a diff. especially a front diff.
Nuff said.

 

[88rockxj]

your saying that the D30 isn't a decent axle? Wow, that means that everyone that wheels with 33"s and 35"s have crappy D30's. Wow its such a piece of junk that It shouldn't be allowed on trails like the hammers... right?
Funny how I just did wrecking ball behind Goatman and a whole group that had locked D30's. we had one broken shaft D30 shaft in the whole group. and most of us were on 35"s. Wow, a locked HP D30 is such a piece.
how about this then. Goatman is a well respected wheeler. he organizes events that are covered by magazines and he personally leads the trails. He has been around the trail more than a few times and has probably seen it all. He wheels many of the most notorious trails in the nation covering much of the southwest. He will not allow a welded Diff on a trail run that he is leading and he has his reasons behind it.
The bottom line is that there is no justification for welding a diff. especially a front diff.
Nuff said.

hp dont have vac discos and yes they are pile of craps, after breaking just about every single part on one i have come to that conclusion. im glad you and your buddy goatman have a great time on 35s and he dont allow welded diffs on his runs becuase quite frankly i dont give a rats a$$ if goatman owns 4wheeler or jp's offroad i dont ever plan to wheel with him and what he says or does doesnt affect weather welding your diff on an axle with vac disco or manual hubs wokrs AWESOME for the poor guy that knows how to drive and wants to GET R DONE. all you high class magazine trail leading gurus i guess dont know what its like to be poor and wanna still be able to have the ability to lock the front axle




and hey buddy if the d30 is so great and awesome wouldnt it hold up to welding the spiders? one minute you say the d30 is weak and will break everything with a welded diff then the next you claim it to be a good axle and you tear it up with 35s. which one is it?


what does goatman say to all those full hydroed rigs with spools in the front? "hey man get outta here you dont have 35's and a d30 you cant go on our trail ride"


im sorry i just gotta dish out the crap like its being given to me, my opinions are always different then the norm.

 

[Rawbrown]

like i said theres thousands of cities in this country and thousands of people that setup gears, you cant always ask somone and a quick way to see if somone knows what thier doing is to ask them a technical question, wether you agree with my question i chose to ask or not.


metal plastiques, your pattern will change(perhaps not enough to harm anything) and under extreme loads it will deflect and could possibly cause failure. i think putting a load on your gears,wether you do it with the axle shafts or not, while checking the pattern is the proper way to set up gears. ill definately be handing out that same exact information when ever i feel the need to

Metal Plastiques
try googling the word before you put it out there.
you cannot generate enough load to adequetly acount for the deflection when checking a pattern. in fact the manufactures have allready taken those points into consideration when designing the gears in the first place. why do you thing a D44 requires a case spreader? It preloads the carrier bearings so that the ring gear cannot deflect and make a significant change on the pattern. Try asking the installer if he uses a case spreader for his D44's. Thats a more realistic question. but even then, there are several installers that don't and they still have a good reputation. How about this. Since according to you, Billavista's word is sacred. So lets check with The gospel according to Randy's ring and pinion. with every gearset and master install kit sold. There is a small booklet that has instructions for properly setting up gears. Nowhere does it state that you need to "preload the axles" when checking the pattern. In fact, the Dana spicer instructions don't either...
But who am i to judge. I've only setup one gearset that broke 3 days later... out of the nearly 200 gearsets I have installed. So because I don't preload the axles must mean I am a crappy gear installer.
anyone wanna touch that?

 

[Captain Ron]

...
anyone wanna touch that?

I won't touch it, and since I'm not technically poor, what the hell would I know anyways.

--ron

 

[88rockxj]

Metal Plastiques
try googling the word before you put it out there.
you cannot generate enough load to adequetly acount for the deflection when checking a pattern. in fact the manufactures have allready taken those points into consideration when designing the gears in the first place. why do you thing a D44 requires a case spreader? It preloads the carrier bearings so that the ring gear cannot deflect and make a significant change on the pattern. Try asking the installer if he uses a case spreader for his D44's. Thats a more realistic question. but even then, there are several installers that don't and they still have a good reputation. How about this. Since according to you, Billavista's word is sacred. So lets check with The gospel according to Randy's ring and pinion. with every gearset and master install kit sold. There is a small booklet that has instructions for properly setting up gears. Nowhere does it state that you need to "preload the axles" when checking the pattern. In fact, the Dana spicer instructions don't either...
But who am i to judge. I've only setup one gearset that broke 3 days later... out of the nearly 200 gearsets I have installed. So because I don't preload the axles must mean I am a crappy gear installer.
anyone wanna touch that?

oh yes billivistas words are sacred when he puts the amount of time and research into what he puts up, the man doesnt just make up sh!t in his head he researchs it and gets information from people that actualy do. bilivista has quite a few technical articles and if it wernt for his articles alot of people would be screwed. sorry if i believe bilivista over you, who are you again? youre a gear installer so youre correct? you dont preload the axles so no you wouldnt get my money, but then again id do it myself. and in fact randys ring&pinion and danas instructions are piles of crap , and theres quite a few other axles then a d44. id go with somthng the military does over randys any day

 

[Fullsizexj]

Billavista is a member on this board and I am sure he would just wreck your whole welded diff opinion if he shows up, face the fact, it is lame and more costly in the long run. You can do whatever you want with yours but do not come here spewing BS to the newbies that are asking for the right answer