Police shooting. Good shoot or Bad shoot?

[msrorysddad]

individuals like you two slay me. You both are basically saying (as I read it) let them go, or try some alternative form of apprehension, like say Buck Rogers might possess. He wasn't fighting? did he look as if he were standing and arguing, or did he swing his arm, as if he had a weapon, or is that a smudge on my monitor? Make up all the excuses you will, they only breed more criminals. Catch them later? Hell, let's just abolish all laws and we can fend for ourselves? It seem that a certain portion of our society has fallen under the false belief that every one's a "good person" they are just suffering from bad decisions. I say, B.S. Stop making excuses for the way others act, it just allows them to keep making bad choices. As for the "cowboy" cops? to protect yourself and others makes you somehow a rogue? As I said ABOLISH all laws, that way we will not have to worry about the bad cops. I'm all for anarchy. Once again I will state that "feelings" have very little to do with reality. I truly "feel" like the guy should'a been saved, given a good education, and become a productive part of society. However reality strikes me, when I remember, I went to school, got a job and have a life. I in my life had choices to make, and made them, some better than others. Once again let's deal with fact, not feeling. A crystal ball? What I saw would get you shot did you only watch the sot, or did you see him, flee, fight, then fall? Last time, reality, not "feelings". It is a bad thing when anyone dies, however, you must peel off the onion layers of feelings, and get to reality, to let him go, or to subdue him. Those were the choices. He was a CROOK, he alone made the choices to say he wasn't makes no logical sense, dress a pig up, it's still a pig. His actions made him a criminal, not the police. If I had a crystal ball, I could work on your police force and we could use our feelings to stop crime in it's tracks. Feelings vs. reality. Love ya'll.

 

[Ray H]

individuals like you two slay me. You both are basically saying (as I read it) let them go,

You read it wrong. I went on record by voting that I thought it was a good shoot.
My last post was a little off topic and not really directed at you (thought I said that). It was to point out that the cop defenders in this thread and others have made a point of saying that you cant judge what is actually happening by what you see in a short video, there is more to the story. My point was to turn that around on them. If you cant judge what is happening by a short video, then why are we so confident that this is a good shooting.

 

[Darky]

I'm confident its a good shooting because we saw more than one angle on it, and in the second angle it shows the guy gesturing as though he had a weapon. Whatever it was, he motioned as if to draw a weapon and threaten the police. They fired in defense of self, and whoever he may come across if they let him go.
The bike guy, we only see one angle, but given the cops testimony afterward, I lean more towards the biker's side because based on what we see, the cop's testimony was blatantly contradicted by the sight of him walking over to the bikers and delivering a forearm shiver to him...

 

[Ray H]

Youve probably noticed, and I touched on this in another thread, I prefer to error on the side of the accused. Im real careful about taking the freedom and liberties away from people willy nilly. When I watch these little video snippets, if there is any doubt in my mind (you know, the old "beyond a shadow of a doubt" thing) I will almost always side with the accused. Thats not because I want guilty people walking the street, its not because Im a defender of guilty people, its because I DO NOT want to see an innocent person suffer because of someone elses mistake.
This whole "arrest them all and let the judge sort them out" or worse yet "kill them all and let god sort them out" attitude bothers be.

 

[msrorysddad]

I will go on record and state. I believe our legal system is too focused on money, profit, at the expense of "the people" (everyone, other than the politically connected). The way it is I feel like runnin, cause every time I get stopped, I get ticketed for somethin, or worse arrested because I choose to carry a "leafy green substance", they actually described it like that once, I was offended, and told them it was flowers, they didn't laugh. I believe the root cause for most of the trouble we have in the world today, is no accountability, and no hope. The politicians see a way to make money, ie. prisons (funding), tickets (a tax). What we are left with is a guy runnin 'cause he can't afford to get out of it. Wouldn't we do better educating, not this sad get 'em through so we get our funding. How about less emphasis on "bling" in Hollywood, and every store I enter, and more emphasis on honesty, and integrity? The gangsta mentality heaped on us at every turn. People "rappers" actually falsify their "street cred" by sayin they were in the pen? OOPS, was I ranting? How about I end with personal accountability, honor, and integrity. I can agree with that. Love ya'll

 

[x2elite]

I've been through police academy twice, once to be a Wildlife Officer (actually much more in depth then regular police academy), and again when I transferred to another agency, and worked for the Parole in a fugitive recovery team. I think these officers were totally justified.

Whether or not an officer is justified in shooting actually has little to do with whether or not the suspect really had a weapon, and or that the officer's life or his partners life was in actual danger. What it depends on, is the officer's perception of whether or not he or his partner was in danger at that point in time. In court all it takes is a jury to determine that the officer did what any other "Reasonable" person would have done in that same scenario. I have been in a situation where I had to exchange gunfire with suspects, and I have been to court over it several times. I have also been sued for acting in the line of duty numerous times as well. However, I have never been found in the wrong, and I have never lost a civil suit either, because I always did things by the books.

And what Darky said about firing under stress or duress being much more difficult than firing at the firing range is exactly right. I was qualified as an expert with my sidearm at the firing range pretty much every time we went out. On our Stress Shooting Course I regularly scored about 85%, much lower than what it takes to qualify as expert marksman. Most of the officers I worked with could qualify easily every time at the range, but many had trouble shooting more than 50% scores on the stress shooting course. If you think you can do better.... set yourself up a tactical course with electronically controlled paintball guns in different locations to fire back at you...... then run 300 yards before you start the course...... move through the course, and elminate every target without being hit, and do it all within a 1 minute time frame from the time you finish your 300 yard dash..... then come back and post up how you scored.

 

[8Mud]

I've been through police academy twice, once to be a Wildlife Officer (actually much more in depth then regular police academy), and again when I transferred to another agency, and worked for the Parole in a fugitive recovery team. I think these officers were totally justified.

Whether or not an officer is justified in shooting actually has little to do with whether or not the suspect really had a weapon, and or that the officer's life or his partners life was in actual danger. What it depends on, is the officer's perception of whether or not he or his partner was in danger at that point in time. In court all it takes is a jury to determine that the officer did what any other "Reasonable" person would have done in that same scenario. I have been in a situation where I had to exchange gunfire with suspects, and I have been to court over it several times. I have also been sued for acting in the line of duty numerous times as well. However, I have never been found in the wrong, and I have never lost a civil suit either, because I always did things by the books.

And what Darky said about firing under stress or duress being much more difficult than firing at the firing range is exactly right. I was qualified as an expert with my sidearm at the firing range pretty much every time we went out. On our Stress Shooting Course I regularly scored about 85%, much lower than what it takes to qualify as expert marksman. Most of the officers I worked with could qualify easily every time at the range, but many had trouble shooting more than 50% scores on the stress shooting course. If you think you can do better.... set yourself up a tactical course with electronically controlled paintball guns in different locations to fire back at you...... then run 300 yards before you start the course...... move through the course, and elminate every target without being hit, and do it all within a 1 minute time frame from the time you finish your 300 yard dash..... then come back and post up how you scored.

I guess there is a fine line between a justifiable shooting and a summary execution. I guess due process is whatever the officer decides it is and how he writes it up afterwards. And then how the lawyers argue it later in court.
There is a difference in having never being found in the wrong (peer judgment) and being wrong.
I'm also an expert pistol shot, I walk on the range cold, pull my pistol out and put the first round in the ten ring at 25 meters. I'm rarely the quickest draw and shoot, but often the most accurate. I've also been shot at and hit, I guess that qualifies as stress drill.
I'm an expert rifle shot. I typically put two out of three in the same hole with one touching at a hundred yards, three in an inch circle at two hundred and again often two touching.
I may watch a Buck for weeks (months, years) before taking my shot. If he is in my scope I own him, no rush. I study his habits and take my shot when and where I'm ready.
I taught hasty demolitions, what they now call IED's, in the military, likely before you were born. Probably spent more time snaking through the jungle or brush than you've been walking upright.
I've had my assed kicked, it always took three or more to do it. Knocking me down and keeping me down is a bit harder.

I'm convinced your a badass, but it really doesn't mean much.

I'm not your enemy unless you make me one.

 

[Ray H]

Oh boy, can I throw my testicles into the hat and we can see who draws the biggest ones?

 

[Darky]

I guess there is a fine line between a justifiable shooting and a summary execution. I guess due process is whatever the officer decides it is and how he writes it up afterwards. And then how the lawyers argue it later in court.
There is a difference in having never being found in the wrong (peer judgment) and being wrong.

This part makes sense as a counter argument. Sounds like you are saying that even given the clear video of the suspect acting threateningly as he ran, the cops had to falsify a report in order to make it sound justified...

I'm also an expert pistol shot, I walk on the range cold, pull my pistol out and put the first round in the ten ring at 25 meters. I'm rarely the quickest draw and shoot, but often the most accurate. I've also been shot at and hit, I guess that qualifies as stress drill.
I'm an expert rifle shot. I typically put two out of three in the same hole with one touching at a hundred yards, three in an inch circle at two hundred and again often two touching.
I may watch a Buck for weeks (months, years) before taking my shot. If he is in my scope I own him, no rush. I study his habits and take my shot when and where I'm ready.
I taught hasty demolitions, what they now call IED's, in the military, likely before you were born. Probably spent more time snaking through the jungle or brush than you've been walking upright.
I've had my assed kicked, it always took three or more to do it. Knocking me down and keeping me down is a bit harder.

I'm convinced your a badass, but it really doesn't mean much.

I'm not your enemy unless you make me one.

The rest of this makes no sense. Nobody's trying to be a badass, and no one cares how much of a badass you used to be...What's any of it have to do with the discussion at hand?

 

[8Mud]

This part makes sense as a counter argument. Sounds like you are saying that even given the clear video of the suspect acting threateningly as he ran, the cops had to falsify a report in order to make it sound justified...


The rest of this makes no sense. Nobody's trying to be a badass, and no one cares how much of a badass you used to be...What's any of it have to do with the discussion at hand?

Rhetorical, maybe I should go back and study writing some more.

The point is the consequences of a shooting, any shooting, justified or not has profound and long lasting consequences.
I had five L.A. county Sheriffs, beat the tar out of me once, for no good reason. That was thirty five years ago and to tell you the truth I'll never get over it. Again rhetorical. I don't consider myself unique, I'm probably just one of thousands, many with a similar skill set as mine. As a matter of fact they may have actually done me a favor, it motivated me to become proficient. Maybe for all the wrong reasons though.
For fifteen years, I'd do 3-6 apprehensions a year, most were armed. I never felt the need to shoot anybody. I'm not saying I never got the urge to slap some motormouth up side the head though.

 

[Darky]

35 yrs ago, cops got away with a lot more if they felt so inclined...Today, for one, cops are video taped on a much much more common basis, not to mention their recorders, etc, but throw in the proliferation of cell phone cameras and cops have to be a lot more careful, or else people like us will be debating their actions, and they'll have to answer for themselves in court.

 

[8Mud]

35 yrs ago, cops got away with a lot more if they felt so inclined...Today, for one, cops are video taped on a much much more common basis, not to mention their recorders, etc, but throw in the proliferation of cell phone cameras and cops have to be a lot more careful, or else people like us will be debating their actions, and they'll have to answer for themselves in court.

First post this thread that actually makes any sense.

I see these videos and think, my God, are they still making the same old mistakes in the same old ways?

 

[8Mud]

Oh boy, can I throw my testicles into the hat and we can see who draws the biggest ones?

Really irrelevant, statistically there are 300,000 highly dangerous people walking around L.A. on any given day, about 1 and a half million that could be goaded into some sort of deadly confrontation (statistically) and about 20,000 cops. Many of the Cops never see the street. Piss off enough people and the Police really don't have chance.

 

[Trail-Axe]

Thats not because I want guilty people walking the street, its not because Im a defender of guilty people, its because I DO NOT want to see an innocent person suffer because of someone elses mistake. This whole "arrest them all and let the judge sort them out" or worse yet "kill them all and let god sort them out" attitude bothers be.

What if the policeman is innocent, should he not be afforded the same due process you speak of?

 

[Ray H]

What if the policeman is innocent, should he not be afforded the same due process you speak of?

Yes, If he is a defendant.

 

[Trail-Axe]

Yes, If he is a defendant.

Defendant? In a legal court, or the court of public opinion (which is where we are now)?

 

[x2elite]

I guess there is a fine line between a justifiable shooting and a summary execution. I guess due process is whatever the officer decides it is and how he writes it up afterwards. And then how the lawyers argue it later in court.
There is a difference in having never being found in the wrong (peer judgment) and being wrong.
I'm also an expert pistol shot, I walk on the range cold, pull my pistol out and put the first round in the ten ring at 25 meters. I'm rarely the quickest draw and shoot, but often the most accurate. I've also been shot at and hit, I guess that qualifies as stress drill.
I'm an expert rifle shot. I typically put two out of three in the same hole with one touching at a hundred yards, three in an inch circle at two hundred and again often two touching.
I may watch a Buck for weeks (months, years) before taking my shot. If he is in my scope I own him, no rush. I study his habits and take my shot when and where I'm ready.
I taught hasty demolitions, what they now call IED's, in the military, likely before you were born. Probably spent more time snaking through the jungle or brush than you've been walking upright.
I've had my assed kicked, it always took three or more to do it. Knocking me down and keeping me down is a bit harder.

I'm convinced your a badass, but it really doesn't mean much.

I'm not your enemy unless you make me one.

You are right.... you win the BadAss contest. I wasn't here to say hey look at me I am badass.... I was merely stating fact. The reason our society is the poor shape it is now, is because of the liberal hug a thug types like you, that give criminals more rights then average law abiding citizens. I never once acted out of line, as an officer, and I can personally vouch for at least 50+ other officers that never acted with anything but the highest value of human life (Whether it be a partner, innocent bystander, and yes a suspect). You act like all cops must think they have to behave like John Wayne, and prove their badassedness. That is not the case, say whatever you want, but it takes a special type of person to be a police officer. When people here gunshots they run the other way, police officers are the only ones running towards them, and they would do it any minute, on duty or off, without even thinking about it. They obviously don't do it for the money, and contrary to your belief, they do not do it because they have to prove they are a badass. I know hundreds of these types of people, and especially now that I am no longer in that line of work, have nothing but the utmost respect for them.

 

[Darky]

Yes, If he is a defendant.

Was the bicyclist a defendant? Was that suspect who got shot a defendant? I have a feeling that you would defend the suspect rather than the cop even in court where the cop was the defendant.

 

[Ray H]

Was the bicyclist a defendant? Was that suspect who got shot a defendant? I have a feeling that you would defend the suspect rather than the cop even in court where the cop was the defendant.

I would like to think I would defend whomever it was I thought was right irregardless of who writes their paycheck.

 

[x2elite]

So everytime an officer acts in the line of duty, he should have to be a defendant in court? Even when he is obviously acting as any other "reasonable" person would act in that exact same situation.