Obama and Unions

[5-90]

ok first yes I am union (elevator const loc 25)
1 what trade are you in
2 why do you not fault the lawyers
3 why do you not fault the companies subing work out to chinese
4 the toyota workers benefit from the standards set buy the unions years ago
5 why does everyone assume without unions all shops would continue to give workers a fair wage

I do agree with you - former union myself (Teamsters) and plenty of union in the family (Carpenters, IBEW, Plumbers & Steamfitters, Steelworkers, ...)

It's not strictly the fault of the union membership (in case I didn't make that point clear before,) but of union management taking itself too seriously; of attorneys making things more difficult than they have to be; of accountants making decisions in fields in which they are not qualified (engineering, maintenance, management, personnel, ...); corporate greed (offshore labour being cheaper, and not having standards to adhere to. I wonder how long it will be before the Pacific Rim finally starts to organise?); and the like.

Unions, in a logical world, should not be as important as they have become or have made themselves out to be. But they are. I'm not arguing (for the record) that all legal workers have benefit from prior organisation of labour around the turn of the century, and (properly used) unions can serve to keep employers honest. I've no trouble with that.

I've no trouble with unions negotiating contracts between labour and management - I've been on the union side of the table a couple of times myself.

The problem is, as I have stated, that unions end up taking far too much each time. Yes, it sets a useful precedent to make sure that management cedes something each time, and if the union cedes something in exchange then balance is maintained. But, quite a few unions think that "give and take" means "you give and we take" - and that's the problem.

It don't work that way. Not on a sustainable basis. Hell, we have only to look at the housing bubble and the current economic crisis to see that (and the government's best course, in this case, is to get out of the way and do nothing. We're borrowing against the future to try to save the now, which just saddles our children with much more debt. We're borrowing already to pay the interest on what we've borrowed before!

I think it was in another thread where I saw someone saying "Despite repeated whacks to the head, the patient failed to regain consciousness." More true than we know - and in many more situations than we think.

 

[BOB]

where I work, I have a bonus each year. The amount is based half by how our local office year end results. And the other half is determined on how the entire Company earnings end up. This gives us incentive to not waste time and makes us think twice about our decisions each day

This goes back to my original frustration with Education Unions. We need to hold these Unions and Teachers accountable.

BOB

 

[5-90]

where I work, I have a bonus each year. The amount is based half by how our local office year end results. And the other half is determined on how the entire Company earnings end up. This gives us incentive to not waste time and makes us think twice about our decisions each day

This goes back to my original frustration with Education Unions. We need to hold these Unions and Teachers accountable.

BOB

The tenure system itself is questionable - it allows teachers to become incompetent and remain gainfully employed, thus screwing up the next generation.

If we have to have tenure, fine. However, it should still be possible to "terminate with cause," including having "cause" being "gross incompetence, negligence, or willful lack of effort."

 

[stewie]

i am a union pipefitter/steamfitter apprentice. i am also first generation union and from a strong anti union house. even though i have only been in my trade for a year and a half, i can see just why it was that i went union and why it is important that i stay that way.

i have experienced what it is like to have an employer take advantage of their employees too many times. i served in the military for 4 years and to be honest, i didnt really care for the way me and my brothers/sisters in uniform were treated.

after i got out of the military, i tried to find a job that utilized the skills i learned in the military. i was a security forces member (air force cop) and was medically discharged. that discharge kept me from being able to be an LEO in the civilian world. so, the next option was to be a rent-a-cop. it took me about a month to find a job as a security officer. once i did, i was not pleased at all with my rewards for a days work. i was paid $9 and hour with no benefits until after 1 year with the company. those bennies were just a week vacation a year and a medical plan that cost the worker close to $800 a month! i realized that i needed to change vocations, so i went to school to become a welder. my instructor helped point me in the direction of a union trade.

after i got my weld certs, i moved back home to AZ. once here, i tried to find a job as a certified welder for two months. i had two call backs- one to be a shop helper for a boilermaker for $8 an hour, and a job manufacturing receiver hitches for $10.75 and hour. again, zero benefits at all. i was only the second welder there that could speak english. the only reason they had a position open was that "e-verify" was starting to come on line and they wanted to all of a sudden have a legit work force. i worked for them only a short time while waiting to be called up for my apprenticeship. during the time though, i can say it was not a very safe place to work. the steel was stored outside and to prevent corrosion it was coated in what appeared to be used motor oil. it was not uncommon to be welding and see a small flicker of light out of the corner of you hood. that was your work piece on fire. also, one day i came into work after we had a monsoon storm the night before. my work station had 1.5" of standing water in it and they wanted me to weld (using a large stick welding machine set on AC). yeah, let me get right on that.

and now in the trade i have seen other contractors (non union) doing some stupid stuff to their guys. i have seen an electrical contractors foreman tell one of his guys to climb up a scaffold which did not yet have a ladder- 23' up- nor side rails at the top to go and install something while the masons were close to that area. also, i have seen a non union iron workers contractor risk everyones life on the job site including my own. they had rigged 3 large I beams to be lifted -daisy chain like- by one of the tower cranes on the sit to the 5th and top floor. each I beam was rigged using a NYLON CHOKER, not a steel cable. when the beams had reached above the 3rd floor deck and started to swing around, the top most beam became unbalanced. one end went low causing the beam to slide in the choker strap slicing it. all 3 beams fell to the third floor deck less than 10' from where one of our plumbers was working. later that week the general contractors safety personnel notified us that nexus steel had "implemented a new company wide policy regarding proper rigging of structural steel." same company, same site- on many occasions i have walked on a lower level area which appeared to be free of overhead obstacles at the time only to narrowly miss a hot slag shower from a (illegal immigrant) working as an iron worker.

now on to my own workers rights. i have received a disability rating from the V.A. regarding the condition i received the medical discharge for. i had notified my site steward and supervisors of that i had a disability and what reasonable accommodations i required (including time for med appointments) upon my hire. i had a time that i needed to attend 4 appointments in two weeks time. the superintendent tried to lay me off for missing time. i told the steward (also a vet) and he immediately went to bat for me. also on that same site, a storm had knocked over all the port-o-johns on the site except for two. the ones that fell over in the wind were of course unsanitary and the two that remained quickly became unsanitary from excessive use- the site had 13 structures and 7 base ball fields under construction. that same superintendent tried to get us to stay and work even with no suitable facilities. it took a couple calls to the hall from the steward for us to get the order to leave until conditions improved which ended up being after the weekend.

lets move on to quality. my local has quite a few members that were organized in. they were trained non union but decided to join the local afterwords. most of the bad apples we have fall into that category. thats not to say that all our guys are great hands, but the training the union provides is superior to that of our non union counterparts. i have seen a couple instances where we have had to go in and repair/replace work done by non union contractors. even though i have little experience in the trade, i could see that the prior work was shoddy and just plain bad.

i work my ass off at work. there has not been many days that i did not come home achy and tired. most of the journeymen i have worked with take pride in the quality and efficiency of their work.

i joined the union for that i could finally get a honest days pay for an honest days work. i was tired of not getting paid what i am worth. i cant think of anyone who wants to be under compensated for their time, can you?

 

[deisenba]

I do believe that unions are necessary. What I also believe is exactly what 5-90 said. Unions continue to take, and not give. Unions should be about safety, working conditions and fair pay. They should not be about protecting incompetent and lazy people from being forced to either work harder or to learn how to do their job. Companies that want the best employees, have to pay well, give good benefits, and a good working environment. That all can happen without a union, and does happen without unions. Unions can keep things honest though, but have all grown powerful and most refuse to be reasonable. What is unfortunate is that most unions will eventually work themselves out of a job. Only 12% of the modern workforce is represented by unions, and that continues to decrease every year. I for one am an above average worker, and I refuse to be paid the same as a schmuck whose only goal is to be to work on time and do as little as possible. Not all workers are created the same and ones hard work is what should earn them their pay above their peers, or below their peers if they are a sub-standard worker. That is one philosophy I believe that unions should buy into. Where I work there are a lot of young new workers with excellent work ethics. Many of them get brought down and destroyed by the senior guys attitudes.

I have been underpaid for what I am worth, and I have changed jobs several times because of it. I am now getting paid a lot closer to what I think I am worth, I am non-union, and I get compensated for my hard work. I am not opposed to unions, I am opposed to the fact that they do not adapt and act reasonably some of the time.

Global competition is going to be the biggest reason for loss of American jobs. Unions will aid that in not helping companies to do what is required to remain competitive. Hiring and retaining people who will work hard is the key.

 

[Red90Laredo]

I would love to find a union gig in northwest indiana. I have been working for like 15 years and have done a bit of everything. Not once have I had a decent job in this area. I've got by on 10 or 15 bucks an hour since high school. It gets harder to get out of bed every day and the pay never is any better.


I have been out of work since sept. now. If I were in a union at least they would help me find work.

 

[Boatwrench]

why does everyone assume without unions all shops would continue to give workers a fair wage

Exactly.

 

[wolfpackjeeper]

I would love to find a union gig in northwest indiana. I have been working for like 15 years and have done a bit of everything. Not once have I had a decent job in this area. I've got by on 10 or 15 bucks an hour since high school. It gets harder to get out of bed every day and the pay never is any better.


I have been out of work since sept. now. If I were in a union at least they would help me find work.

wow $10-15? Until I graduated from college I never found a job paying more than $8.50...

 

[Red90Laredo]

I do work son. I'm not talking McDonalds or working at the video store. Almost all of my jobs have been in production/construction. Things like loading/ shrink wrapping palettes of 50 pound bags all day every day. Roofing tear offs. Concrete laborer. you know- the fun stuff. Actually the best wage I have ever earned was 14.25/ hr, and that was while working out of state in green bay at a non union steel tubing mill.

I am not afraid of a little hard work. Never have been. As I get older though I feel that my past work history and general experience should be worth something. I interviewed at a local AAMCO transmission shop. The guy offered me a job after a couple inteviews worth of my time. The position would be R&R removing and installing transmissions all day for the rebuilder. I was to provide my own tools (I have a snap on account currently at about 100/per week out of my pay). This old prick offered me 8 dollars per hour to start. I almost spit in his face- but then it all became clear. The guy I was replacing's last name? Hernandez.

Old Hernandez was glad to swing a wrench all day for 8 bucks.

My name is not hernandez motherXXXXer. I am an american with a valid social security card and I would rather starve than work for you.

 

[NW-ZJ-SCOTT]

I do work son. I'm not talking McDonalds or working at the video store. Almost all of my jobs have been in production/construction. Things like loading/ shrink wrapping palettes of 50 pound bags all day every day. Roofing tear offs. Concrete laborer. you know- the fun stuff. Actually the best wage I have ever earned was 14.25/ hr, and that was while working out of state in green bay at a non union steel tubing mill.

I am not afraid of a little hard work. Never have been. As I get older though I feel that my past work history and general experience should be worth something. I interviewed at a local AAMCO transmission shop. The guy offered me a job after a couple inteviews worth of my time. The position would be R&R removing and installing transmissions all day for the rebuilder. I was to provide my own tools (I have a snap on account currently at about 100/per week out of my pay). This old prick offered me 8 dollars per hour to start. I almost spit in his face- but then it all became clear. The guy I was replacing's last name? Hernandez.

Old Hernandez was glad to swing a wrench all day for 8 bucks.

My name is not hernandez motherXXXXer. I am an american with a valid social security card and I would rather starve than work for you.

amen:lecture:

 

[NW-ZJ-SCOTT]

wow $10-15? Until I graduated from college I never found a job paying more than $8.50...

well before college, a good union job would'nt pay you $8.50 and hour....

My union job started me off at 10, union contract was up and we worked out a new one, i went to 12/hr in less then 6 months of working there. with 100% company paid health benefits.

my co-worker has been there 4 years, he started off at 8.25/hr now he's at 15.80/hr in 2 years he will be at top wage.. 17.75/hr..

100% company paid beni's on top of that.

sure, a good college education will get you into a company that don't need a union to support its employees and will pay way better, But not everybody has that opportunity..

 

[stewie]

I am not afraid of a little hard work. Never have been. As I get older though I feel that my past work history and general experience should be worth something. I interviewed at a local AAMCO transmission shop. The guy offered me a job after a couple inteviews worth of my time. The position would be R&R removing and installing transmissions all day for the rebuilder. I was to provide my own tools (I have a snap on account currently at about 100/per week out of my pay). This old prick offered me 8 dollars per hour to start. I almost spit in his face- but then it all became clear. The guy I was replacing's last name? Hernandez.

Old Hernandez was glad to swing a wrench all day for 8 bucks.

My name is not hernandez motherXXXXer. I am an american with a valid social security card and I would rather starve than work for you.

well before college, a good union job would'nt pay you $8.50 and hour....

My union job started me off at 10, union contract was up and we worked out a new one, i went to 12/hr in less then 6 months of working there. with 100% company paid health benefits.

my co-worker has been there 4 years, he started off at 8.25/hr now he's at 15.80/hr in 2 years he will be at top wage.. 17.75/hr..

100% company paid beni's on top of that.

sure, a good college education will get you into a company that don't need a union to support its employees and will pay way better, But not everybody has that opportunity..

the problem out here in AZ is that all the employers (at least the ones whos people dont sit behind a cokcsucking desk all day) hire illigos to work for pennies on our dollar. then that money gets sent out of our borders. we need some help in combating that out here.

our union helps to keep our contractors from hiring cheaper labor. also, from risky safety practices. i have seen some tijuana fab done on the jobsite. the general contractors safety guy didnt even want to touch it. the union "kindly" persuaded them to hold the other contractor to the same rules. it is widely know that it seems that only the union contractors have to follow the rules.

what really sucks on the job site is to walk into a port a john. the illigals throw their used shitpaper on the floor or in the urinal (creating a nice little golden lake) and there are muddy footprints on or next to the seat with a nice cleavland steamer on the seat. hey 3 guys climbing up and/or down the same ladder at the same time is ok right? oh, and it ok to do "hot work"- welding, grinding, using chop saw- is ok arround famables right? and the list goes on....

i dont know about the rest of the country, but out here the unions are needed quite badly.

now on to the education bit. not everyone can afford a collage education. especially if your a young white male not great in sports, unmarried, no kids etc. a union apprenticeship is a great way to learn a trade so that your not stuck at a lower income level because of education. I for instance, have medical issues preventing sitting for prolonged periods of time and with some of the stupid politics asociated with higher education, am not the best suited for collage.

but hey, you can go work for a fraction of your potential if you want. i still need someone to flip my hambergers...