Obama and Unions

[planefixer]

IMO unions had their place but that was a long time ago.The whole mentality of "oh, you cant change that light bulb or sweep the floor because that takes money away from some else" is a fine display of inefficiency and is total BS.It just makes things take longer to get done.I also see a lot of the unions a being greedy.Most union jobs seem to pay more, and offer more benefits than the average non-union job yet they still see the need to go on strike to get even more pay and more benefits.If unions were more concerned with the safety of workers than how much more $$$ they can get I would have a little better opinion of them.Some may argue that they help insure people aren't over worked and get fair hours & pay , blah, blah, blah, but I've never worked union and I haven't had any problems with pay, hours worked, etc.-ever.They're going to end up pricing themselves out of business someday (like the UAW is trying to do) and I wont feel sorry for them at all.Normally I wont discuss the union vs non-union arguement with union members because it seems like they all drank the Kool-aid to the point of sounding like they're brainwashed, especially multi-generational members.My best friends dad was/is a union glaser and I remember ,when we were growing up, him sitting on his ass way more than working because the were no "union" jobs.I'll be damned if someone is going to tell me when and what jobs I can work.I think the big union heads are a bunch of palm-greasing crooks.I know some pro-union people will be upset with my opinion, and claim I don't know the whole story but I really don't care.Every time I've tried discussing this issue with pro-union workers they themselves absolutely refuse to see the other side of the equation as well.

Just my $ .02

:cheers:

 

[Kittrell]

Having worked both types of jobs, I've never seen the benefit.....................:dunno:

 

[kujito]

When I was a tech for Lucent Technologies (union shop), I was constantly being told not to work so hard. Not as in "why do you do that the hard way?", but as in "you should be lazier." Any time the old union guys saw me sweating, it was "hey, slow down. There's no need for all that."
No wonder we all got laid off. Well not all of us, seniority ya know? It didn't matter what you knew or did, it was all about how much time you had.
The only other time I was told something along those lines in seriousness was by a union shop leader @ NAS Corpus Christi. We (SeaBees) were waiting on supplies for a project, so we got sent to help out the Public Works guys. After two days and every work order we could find, I was told "You and your guys need to slow down. You're making us look bad." My reply, "Bad, or unnecessary?" We were no longer allowed to 'help' in the shops.

 

[Tom R.]

When I was a tech for Lucent Technologies (union shop), I was constantly being told not to work so hard. Not as in "why do you do that the hard way?", but as in "you should be lazier." Any time the old union guys saw me sweating, it was "hey, slow down. There's no need for all that."
No wonder we all got laid off. Well not all of us, seniority ya know? It didn't matter what you knew or did, it was all about how much time you had.
The only other time I was told something along those lines in seriousness was by a union shop leader @ NAS Corpus Christi. We (SeaBees) were waiting on supplies for a project, so we got sent to help out the Public Works guys. After two days and every work order we could find, I was told "You and your guys need to slow down. You're making us look bad." My reply, "Bad, or unnecessary?" We were no longer allowed to 'help' in the shops.

No surprise....I've heard these stories from many people who experienced the same thing.

Regarding unions and federal wage grades (GS, WG (not GW), GG, etc.)... While the GG pay plan is used for Intelligence positions, it's primarily a pay plan used by many agencies who hire employees on a temporary or term basis.. GG is short for General Government and the pay grades are similar to the General Schedule. A significant percentage of GS employees do not fall under collective bargaining. Unions are mostly for WG employees. And of course, now we have NSPS, which no one likes.

 

[5-90]

No surprise....I've heard these stories from many people who experienced the same thing.

Regarding unions and federal wage grades (GS, WG (not GW), GG, etc.)... While the GG pay plan is used for Intelligence positions, it's primarily a pay plan used by many agencies who hire employees on a temporary or term basis.. GG is short for General Government and the pay grades are similar to the General Schedule. A significant percentage of GS employees do not fall under collective bargaining. Unions are mostly for WG employees. And of course, now we have NSPS, which no one likes.

Ah - "Wage Government", not "Government Wage?" I heard "GW" from my brother-in-law (DoD civilian,) and he may have gotten it reversed.

So, what's NSPS now?

And it's not necessary to read on history to see what unions have accomplished - history can be dry (if rather important!) Upton Sinclair did a number of semi-fictional novels on working conditions pre-union, with The Jungle probably being his most well-known (about meat-packing using immigrant labour at the turn of the 20th century.)

Yes, the collective bargaining offered by trade/labour unions served a very good purpose - and they've got a lot to do with the formation of the National Labor Relations Act, state labour laws, and working conditions in general - not to mention Federal minimum wages, State minimum wages, et al.

(Of course, every time we turn around, they're trying to bump up the Federal minimum wage again. This doesn't really do anything useful but increase the tax base - the only winner is the government. I won't say it crashes the economy, but the increase in the cost of production each time helps to further devalue the dollar.)

However, the various labour/trade unions, while they still fulfill some useful functions, have gotten entirely too full of themselves and they're also causing a lot of this trouble we're having - economically speaking. I've nothing against a skilled tradesman making a decent wage for his day's work, and some trades can be actually dangerous to life and limb (electricians and steamfitters have a good idea what I'm talking about. Industrial mechanics and maintenance men likewise. And high-iron people. And ...) Unions can help keep employers from cutting corners and risking their people.

But, as long as unions keep upping wages for their represented workers, they're really not helping them (or anyone else.) I know it seems backwards - but every time pay goes up, purchasing power goes down. Track how much time a journey-level carpenter (say) has had to spend working to buy two loaves of bread over the last fifty years or so, and you'll see what I mean. It's a simplistic - but effective - test. The carpenter is probably the most "middle-of-the-road" tradesman in terms of pay, and bread is a staple foodstuff. Granted, you can use any mid-paid tradesman and any staple foodstuff (mechanics and non-prime meat, for instance,) but the two testing criteria must remain the same over the time examined. You may find it enlightening and instructive...

 

[Tom R.]

Ah - "Wage Government", not "Government Wage?" I heard "GW" from my brother-in-law (DoD civilian,) and he may have gotten it reversed.

So, what's NSPS now?

WG = Wage Grade

These pay grades are assigned to employees who work in a recognized trade or craft, mechanical craft, or manual labor occupation. Foremen and supervisors typically fall under the WL (Wage Leader) and WS (Wage Supervisor) scales. As I understand it, these wage systems are in the process of being phased out.

NSPS is the National Security Personnel System (NSPS) and is designed to replace the General Schedule (GS) pay system. It's a "Pay for Performance" plan that leaves all pay increases in the hands of government managers. Rumsfeld pushed this hard when he was Sec of DoD. He recognized how difficult it was to fire under-performing civil service employees and wanted to change the process. As with most things, the final product rarely functions as intended. There are many issues with it that's best researched yourself rather than cluttering up this post. I will just say that of all the CS employees I spoke to when I was a contractor at my local AF base, not one was in favor of it. Even the HR folks are having many issues. Like with most things government, it's complicated.

 

[Led]

IMO unions had their place but that was a long time ago.The whole mentality of "oh, you cant change that light bulb or sweep the floor because that takes money away from some else" is a fine display of inefficiency and is total BS.It just makes things take longer to get done.I also see a lot of the unions a being greedy.Most union jobs seem to pay more, and offer more benefits than the average non-union job yet they still see the need to go on strike to get even more pay and more benefits.If unions were more concerned with the safety of workers than how much more $$$ they can get I would have a little better opinion of them.Some may argue that they help insure people aren't over worked and get fair hours & pay , blah, blah, blah, but I've never worked union and I haven't had any problems with pay, hours worked, etc.-ever.They're going to end up pricing themselves out of business someday (like the UAW is trying to do) and I wont feel sorry for them at all.Normally I wont discuss the union vs non-union arguement with union members because it seems like they all drank the Kool-aid to the point of sounding like they're brainwashed, especially multi-generational members.My best friends dad was/is a union glaser and I remember ,when we were growing up, him sitting on his ass way more than working because the were no "union" jobs.I'll be damned if someone is going to tell me when and what jobs I can work.I think the big union heads are a bunch of palm-greasing crooks.I know some pro-union people will be upset with my opinion, and claim I don't know the whole story but I really don't care.Every time I've tried discussing this issue with pro-union workers they themselves absolutely refuse to see the other side of the equation as well.

Just my $ .02

:cheers:

liar

 

[NW-ZJ-SCOTT]

I'm Pro-Union.

I am thankful for the old time Union members that fought for the standard of living we all enjoy and the establishment of a middle class. You know, weekends off, 8 hour workday, health insurance and a pension plan.

Read your history folks.

Agreed, from the outside in, it sounds ridiculous to pay an outside union a monthly due.. for what? well... You would actually be surprised, when my union contract was up, me and my 15 co-workers (union members) are the ones that formed the new 3 year contract, and there's alot the union fights for, all for the employee's rights, its not all about pay, its about Job security, you dont have to do anything wrong anymore to lose your job, Seniority is nothing without a union behind it.

not to mention, the pay raise/health care/401k...

 

[ECKSJAY]

I'm thankful as well...but their time has come and gone.

eace:

 

[tharlanjr]

Where's the job security for the UAW workers? If the company goes under because the Unions squeezed every last dime they could out of them, Job security means nothing.

Unions had their day, and are no longer needed...


IMHO

Agreed, from the outside in, it sounds ridiculous to pay an outside union a monthly due.. for what? well... You would actually be surprised, when my union contract was up, me and my 15 co-workers (union members) are the ones that formed the new 3 year contract, and there's alot the union fights for, all for the employee's rights, its not all about pay, its about Job security, you dont have to do anything wrong anymore to lose your job, Seniority is nothing without a union behind it.

not to mention, the pay raise/health care/401k...

 

[IslanderOffRoad]

Unions are outdated and worthless these days.

We have gov't regulation and unions that have the same goals as far as the betterment of working conditions for workers. All that a combination of the two has caused is soaring labor costs and an abandonment of manufacturing in the US.

 

[kujito]

Unions may be somewhat outdated, but so is my XJ and it still serves a very valuable service. Not all unions are like the UAW. Without unions, we'd all still be suffering horrible working conditions. Just because you work in a non-union shop does not mean that you have not benefitted from unions. Most non-union shops have structured their pay and benes. so that their employees feel like they're being treated fairly. Treat your employees well, and they won't feel the need to organize against you.

 

[IslanderOffRoad]

Unions may be somewhat outdated, but so is my XJ and it still serves a very valuable service. Not all unions are like the UAW. Without unions, we'd all still be suffering horrible working conditions. Just because you work in a non-union shop does not mean that you have not benefitted from unions. Most non-union shops have structured their pay and benes. so that their employees feel like they're being treated fairly. Treat your employees well, and they won't feel the need to organize against you.

And thats why they are useless; if non-union companies are realizing that treating their employees better results in better work, why do we still need unions? Particularly when the gov't already tells them you must pay at least x, they cannot work more than y hours, etc.

 

[planefixer]

liar

You're the very rare exception...........................most of the time.:gag:

 

[FordGuy]

This subject boils the blood. Its 2009, business owners should have all the say in how they run their companies while following the millions of laws that protect employee's. 5mil out of work, people need to open their eyes.

 

[winterbeater]

Union work rules, pay and benefits, and "union work attitudes" created a job bubble, just like cheap, easy, mortgages created a housing bubble, and easy overextended loans created the banking bubble. Now we will all be paying the price, and it's a tough crash landing. We've chased the manufacturing jobs out of our country. Hi-lo drivers making 150k/year - DONE. Workers getting paid 95% for being laid off - DONE. Now government is taking over the auto industry and will force automakers to build cars that nobody will want to buy and nobody can make a profit on. The auto supplier I worked for (laid off permanently 5 months ago) is sourcing engineering work out to India. And the manufacturing is being shifted from Ohio to Mexico. Shit, they just had on TV how Hollywood sourced out all of the animated effects for a recent big movie to India (Bollywood). The world is rapidly becomming a level playing field and we are still living up on the mountain. Keep your eyes open for a good place to crash land.

 

[5-90]

And thats why they are useless; if non-union companies are realizing that treating their employees better results in better work, why do we still need unions? Particularly when the gov't already tells them you must pay at least x, they cannot work more than y hours, etc.

I wouldn't say they're useless - they're just more interested in their own self-aggrandizement than in promoting working conditions overall.

The union shops do serve to keep the other shops honest - in terms of working conditions. It was worker organisation that gave us things like the various Labour Codes, FMLA, "working" minimum wages, and the like. However, the problem has become that unions - and major union employees (particularly UAW, but also USW, some IBEW, some Plumbers & Steamfitters, ...) have gotten greedy and screwed up the scale for everyone else. This is why manufacturing has been going offshore at an incredible rate.

It's possible for non-union shops to do well - I've got a buddy I've known since HS who has been working at Subaru-Isuzu America in Lafayette, IN for the last fifteen years or so. He's been happy in his work, makes decent money, good benefits, and is not union. NUMMI motors out here in Fremont (the old GM plant) is likewise non-union, and I know quite a few people who work there who are happy with their work. It was, apparently, a little strange getting used to a primarily Japanese working culture, but they've all met in the middle.

Keeping the UAW out has helped keep their prices down and wages up.

Unions serve a function in keeping employers honest - and if they'd stopped there, that would be enough. It's when they start getting greedy that it's a problem. Why does an assembler with a minimal risk exposure on the line need to make $40-50 per hour? And, why does it take eight hours to do a half-day's work? Hell, if I was making $40-50 per hour, I'd be happy to be able to work a half-day - that would result in more time to get other things done with the money!

Then again, I've been long regarded as odd...

 

[heyhar]

5-90, wasn't NUMMI the original, Japanese plant that WAS union, albeit a toned down contract? It was opened late 80's/early 90's, to produce the Corolla/Prism, and was touted as the 'new wave' of labor-management relations. Of course, Toyota and the rest have opened many more plants, with only a handful having UAW representation.
I am currently a member of IBEW, and it's funny how the smaller, rural locals conduct themselves, compared to the large city or urban area locals. My experience has been very positive, compared to working as an electrician on the non-union (or 'union-free') side of the fence. Just about all of the workers I meet conduct themselves professionally, and having served a five year apprenticeship with the training, are very knowledgeable. The seven years I spent non-union were quite an eye opening as far as what you get when you don't want to pay, and don't care to treat people fairly. I can see an advantage to a 'merit shop' mentality, but both sides need to be on the same page as far as reward or expectation. I worked commissioned sales for a long time, so in theory I have no problem equating reward with effort. But, I realize that without the efforts of various labor groups a hundred years ago, would we still be living in company housing, spending company script at the company store? Back in the early seventies when I started working, I had a job at the A&P- some of the folks near bigger cities may remember them. Philly had a particularly strong local of the Retail Clerks. They were good as they kept you from being abused (and the company would try), but ultimately, priced us right out of a job (just my opinion). But, the flip side was that you had weekends, vacations, etc.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that even if you are not a union member or supporter, you still have benefited from the standard of living that the unions have helped to ingrain into society.

 

[deisenba]

Unions had there place and time back at the turn of the century when the Rockafellers and others treated their employees poorly with the worst of working conditions and horrible pay. Now with the media, lawyers and the way that information is spread, there is no need for what unions have become. I work at a company that has admin and union employees. My company will be competing with China in the next few years for business. Once China comes online, we are going to struggle to stay in business. That won't be because of the high union wages, but because about 1/2 the union people I work with are worthless. If they worked an honest 2 hours out of every 8 hours I would be surprised. I work with both the hardest workers I have ever seen and some of the most worthless, I have ever seen. They all get paid the same, which is one problem. There is no incentive to work hard. Another problem is that it is very difficult to rid the company of the worthless ones. If they show up to work on time each and every day, you can't hardly fire them. The union will not allow standards for worker productivity. How can a company survive when a union will not allow the company to set standards. The company has allowed it to become that way, but now it is impossible to change without kicking the union out. One example of worthlessness from my work is a worker was caught sleeping in a hiding place one day. He was written up. His excuse for sleeping is that he had sprained his ankle at work 8 months prior, never reported it, and claimed he had to take a break. He then went to his "doctor" and got a note saying he required physical therapy. He was not fired because he hired an attorney and claimed he was going to sue. The company got a recordable injury for the year, and that employee now does less work than ever - maybe 1/2 an hour per day. The union backed up this worthless employee with 20 years seniority 100%. Ridiculous.

Why do professional athletes have players unions? So they get "fair" pay? So they get "decent working conditions"? No- so they can act like overpaid babies and never get punished. It is unfortunate that unions have become what they have become. They could be useful, but instead are working on driving USA companies out of business.

Non-union workers at Toyota in the USA get paid as much if not more than the big 3 union guys get, and Toyota has some of the best and most efficient shops in the US. Toyota is doing well because their workers all work hard and are treated very well. The big 3 are struggling because they have unions and can not make low cost vehicles because they have lots of dead weight to carry on their payrolls.

 

[Led]

Unions had there place and time back at the turn of the century when the Rockafellers and others treated their employees poorly with the worst of working conditions and horrible pay. Now with the media, lawyers and the way that information is spread, there is no need for what unions have become. I work at a company that has admin and union employees. My company will be competing with China in the next few years for business. Once China comes online, we are going to struggle to stay in business. That won't be because of the high union wages, but because about 1/2 the union people I work with are worthless. If they worked an honest 2 hours out of every 8 hours I would be surprised. I work with both the hardest workers I have ever seen and some of the most worthless, I have ever seen. They all get paid the same, which is one problem. There is no incentive to work hard. Another problem is that it is very difficult to rid the company of the worthless ones. If they show up to work on time each and every day, you can't hardly fire them. The union will not allow standards for worker productivity. How can a company survive when a union will not allow the company to set standards. The company has allowed it to become that way, but now it is impossible to change without kicking the union out. One example of worthlessness from my work is a worker was caught sleeping in a hiding place one day. He was written up. His excuse for sleeping is that he had sprained his ankle at work 8 months prior, never reported it, and claimed he had to take a break. He then went to his "doctor" and got a note saying he required physical therapy. He was not fired because he hired an attorney and claimed he was going to sue. The company got a recordable injury for the year, and that employee now does less work than ever - maybe 1/2 an hour per day. The union backed up this worthless employee with 20 years seniority 100%. Ridiculous.

Why do professional athletes have players unions? So they get "fair" pay? So they get "decent working conditions"? No- so they can act like overpaid babies and never get punished. It is unfortunate that unions have become what they have become. They could be useful, but instead are working on driving USA companies out of business.

Non-union workers at Toyota in the USA get paid as much if not more than the big 3 union guys get, and Toyota has some of the best and most efficient shops in the US. Toyota is doing well because their workers all work hard and are treated very well. The big 3 are struggling because they have unions and can not make low cost vehicles because they have lots of dead weight to carry on their payrolls.

ok first yes I am union (elevator const loc 25)
1 what trade are you in
2 why do you not fault the lawyers
3 why do you not fault the companies subing work out to chinese
4 the toyota workers benefit from the standards set buy the unions years ago
5 why does everyone assume without unions all shops would continue to give workers a fair wage