Loud pop/clang during articulation - XJ

[831_xj]

Hmmm okay. Pics of your steering and tb?
Something is binding.

 

[rockclimber]

Okay man thanks for the knowledge! I'm gonna use slotted lower control arm mounts from a TJ now so I can have caster adjustability.

Go right ahead. Works for the TJs just fine until they don't tighten them properly

Although your XJ has the caster adjustment built into the frame side mounts

 

[x-jay vision]

They also use a cam bolt...

 

[blistovmhz]

Yes. A can bolt that ALSO doesn't hold your control arm in place via friction. The entire purpose of a cam bolt is to retain the bolts position in the mount. If friction did the job, why bother with can bolt ?

 

[blistovmhz]

Don't see anything even close to binding. Also, the pop occasionally occurs on hard, on road braking as well.

 

[Jbh97009]

How are your flex joints in the control arms? I've been fighting the same issue just like your talking about. Every time I turned into my driveway too fast (coming off a steep hill and making the sharp left turn) I got a loud pop. Wheeling/articulation same thing. Fwiw I run no sway bars.

Thought it was my stock steering hitting the stock sway bar links (which it was hitting) so since I had rustys otk steering, track bar and brace to put on I cut the sway bar links off and installed my steering. Still had the pop.....

I had ordered RC flex joint rebuilds, so I pulled the arms, cleaned everything up, replaced one that was worn and greased them up and re-installed. Took care of about 90% of mine, I still have an occasional pop kind of sound but I'm blaming that on my totally wasted DS ball joints....

If you haven't done it already I'd just pull one arm at a time, take the joint apart, clean it grease it, tighten it up good and put it back.

 

[blistovmhz]

How are your flex joints in the control arms? I've been fighting the same issue just like your talking about. Every time I turned into my driveway too fast (coming off a steep hill and making the sharp left turn) I got a loud pop. Wheeling/articulation same thing. Fwiw I run no sway bars.

Thought it was my stock steering hitting the stock sway bar links (which it was hitting) so since I had rustys otk steering, track bar and brace to put on I cut the sway bar links off and installed my steering. Still had the pop.....

I had ordered RC flex joint rebuilds, so I pulled the arms, cleaned everything up, replaced one that was worn and greased them up and re-installed. Took care of about 90% of mine, I still have an occasional pop kind of sound but I'm blaming that on my totally wasted DS ball joints....

If you haven't done it already I'd just pull one arm at a time, take the joint apart, clean it grease it, tighten it up good and put it back.

Already did pulled both joints apart a few weeks ago. One was a tiny bit loose so I gave the ring a quarter turn and it was snug again. Other side was perfect. Besides which, the problem started before the long arm swap.

It absolutely has to be something other than the suspension as far as I can tell, because the exact problem has been present since before I made any suspension modifications. The only thing in the front end that hasn't been completely replaced is the axle, and the steering box. I can't find any play in the steering box, and the sound comes very clearly from the right side of the vehicle. It sounds like something gets loaded up real good and then lets go real fast. Can feel the pop through the whole truck, but it's definitely originating in the passenger side, forward of the seat.

 

[831_xj]

Bolts to steering box tight? Do you have an inner brace or the chincy stock one? If the stock brace is broken in pieces it could cause a pop. So could loose bolts.

 

[Jbh97009]

831_xj might be on to something there....

Or you just have a unibody with some bad spot welds that you may never locate lol. Honestly though its kinda hard to come up with much without actually seeing/feeling/hearing it... Good luck! Jeep looks like its setup well! A lot like mine actually...

 

[blistovmhz]

Bolts to steering box tight? Do you have an inner brace or the chincy stock one? If the stock brace is broken in pieces it could cause a pop. So could loose bolts.

Haven't pulled it to check yet, but it's on the list of suspects. Visual inspection while it's still installed looks good thought.

831_xj might be on to something there....

Or you just have a unibody with some bad spot welds that you may never locate lol. Honestly though its kinda hard to come up with much without actually seeing/feeling/hearing it... Good luck! Jeep looks like its setup well! A lot like mine actually...

Bad spot welds were brought up earlier as well, and I've been searching all over . I'm just goona be pissed if I end up picking up another XJ to swap all my stuff over to, and find out it was something I'm swapping over and not the unibody

 

[rocknxj]

Bolts to steering box tight? Do you have an inner brace or the chincy stock one? If the stock brace is broken in pieces it could cause a pop. So could loose bolts.

X1000

 

[blistovmhz]

X1000

Keep hearing about the brace. I'll fab something up tomorrow and see if it does the trick. Been meaning to reinforce the box anyway. Also build a box brace if I've got the material and not too lazy.

 

[rockclimber]

Yes. A can bolt that ALSO doesn't hold your control arm in place via friction. The entire purpose of a cam bolt is to retain the bolts position in the mount. If friction did the job, why bother with can bolt ?

The "cam bolt" does nothing to retain the arm. It simply locates the joint until the bolt is tightened. The clamp load of the inner faces of the joint is what holds it.

If you even take one apart you will realize there is enough slop in the Camslot to allow 1/8" of movement easy.

The physics of the system will not change. No matter how much BS you believe, friction is the only thing that holds those joints in.

 

[blistovmhz]

one more, with flex. Pop happens way more often when flexed to the right like this, than to the left, but as I said, it'll occasionally happen under hard braking on pavement as well, but usually only once, after a day of wheeling.

Really seems like something has a little slip, gets pushed one direction and sticks until an opposing force gives it just enough bump to pop back out.

****ed up my back yesterday, so dunno if I'll be able to look into it at all today, but have weld washers coming and should be here Wed, and I'll pop the steering box off at the same time.

Thanks for all your input.

*edit*. Shit, know what I hadn't considered? Coil retainer clips. I've never had'm on this rig. Anyone ever have a coil slip out of the bucket groove on droop, then violently re-seat itself on compression? That would completely explain this whole thing, as that's the only thing wrong with this axle/front end.

*edit again* Just thought about this more. I'm beginning to wonder if it could even be the TOP of the coil, on full droop and subsequent compression, getting hung up on the upper bump stop lip, then violently finding it's way back up to the top of the stop. Sound about right? I've search around and found at least two guys who've posed the question. I DO get a lot of articulation, and I really should invest in some limit straps .

 

[rockclimber]

Check your frame side trackbar bracket ... I found it nearly inposssible to keep the bolts tight and it would move on compression/droop exactly as you are describing.

 

[x-jay vision]

Re: Re: Loud pop/clang during articulation - XJ

Check your frame side trackbar bracket ... I found it nearly inposssible to keep the bolts tight and it would move on compression/droop exactly as you are describing.

Yeah that bolt hole may be wallowed out. If it is that's fine. Just torque it down tighter and you won't have any problems.

 

[yossarian19]

The clamp load of the inner faces of the joint is what holds it.
The physics of the system will not change. No matter how much BS you believe, friction is the only thing that holds those joints in.

Carrol Smith, the late race driver / team manager / mechanical engineer and prolific author on how to properly build / design / tune race cars, disagrees with you. In his book "Engineer to Win" and the Nuts, Bolts, Fasteners and Plumbing Handbook the man goes over this in some detail. What I took from it is that yes, friction helps and NO, it is not the only load bearing mechanism in the typical bolted joint. It may be the case that on a stock Jeep the hardware is sized enough that the frictional forces are adequate to keep things in place.
Put 37" tires on an XJ with a 10mm track bar connection and I contend that within a short time even a still-properly-torqued bolt will be wallowing out it's mounting lugs, friction bedamned.
I been wrong plenty of times in life but I'll go with the late Mr. Smith vs the stuff we all hear on the internet.

 

[rockclimber]

Carrol Smith, the late race driver / team manager / mechanical engineer and prolific author on how to properly build / design / tune race cars, disagrees with you. In his book "Engineer to Win" and the Nuts, Bolts, Fasteners and Plumbing Handbook the man goes over this in some detail. What I took from it is that yes, friction helps and NO, it is not the only load bearing mechanism in the typical bolted joint. It may be the case that on a stock Jeep the hardware is sized enough that the frictional forces are adequate to keep things in place.

Put 37" tires on an XJ with a 10mm track bar connection and I contend that within a short time even a still-properly-torqued bolt will be wallowing out it's mounting lugs, friction bedamned.

I been wrong plenty of times in life but I'll go with the late Mr. Smith vs the stuff we all hear on the internet.

Despite what you may think, you are incorrect. Bolts do not work the way you think they do. IF you load a suspension bolt in shear it will bend or break. Suspension bolts should never be loaded in shear, they should always be loaded in tension by clamping the mount to the joint sleeve.

In your fabricated scenario, A 10mm bolt in the trackbar will wallow out the hole because it does not posses enough clamp force to deal with loads it is seeing. Not because the system doesn't work, but because the components used are not strong enough.

 

[yossarian19]

OK.

 

[Jbh97009]

I would say coil spring retainers would help!

As far as the joint debate, rockclimber is right, though my 'opinion' doesn't mean sh!t.... Its relatively simple. They clamp, what's so hard to understand. Spend a little time on pirate and look at different builds (especially first time suspension builders) and you'll see.