Engine oil! ZDDP! Rabblerabblerabble... A testimonial.

[milehigh]

Well its your money spend it how you want. Personally Ive never seen or heard of motor failure in a non solid lifter motor due to lack of ZDDP. If you are interested I have a rock that keeps tigers away, lol.

 

[Ecomike]

Well its your money spend it how you want. Personally Ive never seen or heard of motor failure in a non solid lifter motor due to lack of ZDDP. If you are interested I have a rock that keeps tigers away, lol.

Does it work for cats?

LOL!

 

[Redsnake]

I run Mobil Delvac 1300 Super 15w-40 year round. Shit works great, valvetrain is quiet, the PO was using Mobil 1 synthetic 10-30, it was leakin at the rear main and around the valve cover, and had valve noise like nobody's business, not anymore!!!

I was thinking this oil was for Diesel motors?? I have been running Mobil One 5W-30 for years... but maybe it's time for a switch next go around. I've noticed a few more leaks and such on my '96 XJ w/ 245K miles...

 

[kastein]

Last time I checked aircraft engines did not use gasoline, but kerosene like fuel that is more like a diesel fuel than gasoline. Gasoline is more like a solvent, diluting oil, diesel is more like a lubricant than a solvent. Might have something to do with it. The ZDDP issue seems to be most hyper critical during break in period.

My friend's airplane's motor runs on 100LL (aka avgas) which actually still has TEL in it. Bet you didn't know you could buy that anymore...

(it's parked in my backyard right now. Runs a flat-4 aircooled motor out of a 60s VW, modified for aircraft usage.)

On a mild enough engine you could probably run the damn thing on maple syrup but that doesn't mean it's a good idea.

... that would be pretty sweet

I'm sorry

My engines are worth a hell of a lot more than my cat is. Cats are cheap, engines are not. Lot less work to replace a cat too. I'll stick with my ZDDP thanks.

Funny thing is, I have never spent more than 100 dollars on a 4.0. I keep a spare on hand for that reason (besides being able to steal one out of one of the other jeeps if I really was in a pinch :laugh2 but it would actually cost me less to buy a new motor than it would to buy a new cat. I'd rather pay more and spend 20 minutes with a welder replacing my cat than 6-8 hours replacing my engine, though.

 

[milehigh]

Does it work for cats?

LOL!

As a matter of fact I dont see any cats around here so it must, lol.

 

[Ecomike]

Actually I read last week that EPA is putting a lead emission limit on airports of 1 ton per year. TEL must be the source.

 

[DieselSJ]

LOL, I was not talking about turbines or pistons, I was talking about fuel and oil, and metal on metal wear!

This one, posted here earlier is far more accurate and detailed:

http://www.zddplus.com/

You said that aircraft engines use a fuel similar to kerosene. Turbines do, but piston engine aircraft don't. They use a gasoline style fuel that reacts with oil (solvent) in much the same way that automotive gasoline does.

 

[DieselSJ]

But for those of us who have high performance engines with more aggressive cams and springs it would make a lot more difference. And if it makes a difference in a high performance engine then it would make a difference in a stock engine too, even if we can't measure it.

You mean like the engine in our Jeepspeed? The engine that gets whatever oil is laying around the shop...

 

[DieselSJ]

ZDDP is not needed in anything but motors that run solid flat tappet lifters, not roller but old school solid. Its not recommended in modern day vehicles as it does destroy the catalytic converter so those of you in emission states could make an expensive mistake.

So to clarify for a stock xj ZDDP is not recommend and should only be used with solid lifters with no concern for catalytic converters

Solid flat tappet? So why wouldn't it be OK for something with hydraulic flat tappet lifters?

 

[MoparManiac]

I recommend you read this article. It is one of the best I have found on the ZDDP/detergent/flat-tappet issue: http://www.kiwi-indian.com/pdf/EPQ409_36-39.pdf

While you have never put any ZDDP additives in yourself, it was used in your engine for the initial break-in period from the factory. The Mopar cam/lifter break-in additive is used for the first 1000 miles of a new flat-tappet engine, and it can be left in until the first oil change. Depending on the year of your XJ/4.0 engine, it likely was living on ZDDP for most of its miles.

No, the 4.0 isn't a high-performance flat-tappet engine, or a tweak British/Italian classic engine. Those engines are more prone to problems with low ZDDP oils throughout their service lives than the 4.0 engine is.

I run Shell Rotella T 10w30 in my 90's 4.0 engine for a number of reasons--first and foremost it keeps the guts of the engine cleaner than any non-diesel engine oils would; the second reason is it still contains a reasonable amount of ZDDP; the third reason is how it stands up to heavy load situations--as in off road use.

I understand that it was used during break-in, you obviously didn't read where I said we used it in our 440ci that was swapped into our '87 Ramcharger.

I don't think it's needed for continuous use in the engine after break-in. I've had several vehicles (and plenty in my family) that have not had any problems. That 440 has 60k on it on sale-brand oil, and my two 4.0s went well over 200k miles on whatever oil was laying around.

I think the point is that with the newer "SM" grade oils, the amount of ZDDP has been reduced. It is a proven fact that the EPA has mandated that the levels be reduced, the oil companies will even tell you that. People's experiences before the ZDDP levels were reduced don't apply here.

The question is "does it matter?" and "will the longevity of my engine be comprimised?"

I'm pretty sure my experience is part of the "does it matter" and "will the longevity of my engine be comprimised" bins. Those 100k+ miles I've done over the past 4 years, so well after they started this ZDDP reduction.

It seems the people who don't believe the hype have actual experience with this, and yet the people who believe it are just quoting information they've read online.

 

[kastein]

my jeeps run better with oil than without. So I run oil in them.

 

[master turner]

It's gotta be Q-torque all the way man! i first noticed it made a difference when i was 14 and put it in my pimped 84 briggs and stratton ride on mower, that shit was poppin weelies (literally) compared to the crap i had in it before, but ya know it was proly just like supertech oil or something cheap.

 

[Milford Cubicle II]

You mean like the engine in our Jeepspeed? The engine that gets whatever oil is laying around the shop...

That's just brilliant...

And most jeepspeed 4.0's are hardly "high performance." Not saying yours isn't I'm just saying that intake, exhaust, and a mild cam doesn't qualify as high performance.

 

[srimes]

The average 4.0 jeepspeed is much more high performance and much harder run than the average street 4.0. Just what are you comparing it to?

 

[Milford Cubicle II]

Oh I'd say about 11:1 CR, at least 550" lift cam with heavy springs. Something like that.

 

[milehigh]

Solid flat tappet? So why wouldn't it be OK for something with hydraulic flat tappet lifters?

Solid flat tappet=old school non roller solid cam. Its not the cam that would be affected its the cat which most of our jeeps have, and most of our jeeps run hyd cam. If you mod'd your motor to run solids then you probly arent too concerned with emissions. If you are then stay away from a solid flat tappet to avoid ruining your cat.

 

[ChicksDigWagons]

Solid flat tappet=old school non roller solid cam. Its not the cam that would be affected its the cat which most of our jeeps have, and most of our jeeps run hyd cam. If you mod'd your motor to run solids then you probly arent too concerned with emissions. If you are then stay away from a solid flat tappet to avoid ruining your cat.

You seem to have confused some terms. You can have a Roller Lifter that is Solid and you can have a Roller Lifter that is hydraulic. You can also have a Flat Tappet lifter that is Solid, or Hydraulic.

The Lash adjustment style (hydro/solid) does not change the fact that in a flat tappet motor, there is a metal on metal high pressure friction. Where as a roller lifter has less friction ultimately and the high-pressure lubricative properties of ZDDP aren't as beneficial.

 

[89gmctd]

Solid flat tappet is clear to most of us = solid lifter (not hydraulic) flat tappet (not roller)..........any engine without roller rocker arms would still benefit from ZDDP, but it's disappearing from the market due to EPA regs on sulphur content, so the point is moot - decreasing the interval between oil-changes could help - using synthetics could help, tho some of the recent warranty failures on oem-spec'ed synthetics seems to offer some opposing argument against, but could also be attributed to defective manufacturing, in sub-assemblies and end product

 

[DieselSJ]

That's just brilliant...

And most jeepspeed 4.0's are hardly "high performance." Not saying yours isn't I'm just saying that intake, exhaust, and a mild cam doesn't qualify as high performance.

And your "expertise" on Jeepspeed engines comes from where? And define "mild" as it pertains to camshafts? Even the full tilt 5.2l (bored/stroked 4.0) that was built by FAT that we ran in the old Class 6 car didn't have anything near a .550 lift so I'm not sure what dreamland you are living in...we aren't drag racing or land speed racing here.

 

[milehigh]

You seem to have confused some terms. You can have a Roller Lifter that is Solid and you can have a Roller Lifter that is hydraulic. You can also have a Flat Tappet lifter that is Solid, or Hydraulic.

The Lash adjustment style (hydro/solid) does not change the fact that in a flat tappet motor, there is a metal on metal high pressure friction. Where as a roller lifter has less friction ultimately and the high-pressure lubricative properties of ZDDP aren't as beneficial.

No I havent confused terms I fully understand roller vs flat tappet and I made all those distinctions in an earlier post. From everything Ive seen and people that Ive talked to I have never heard of a cam going flat on a hyd flat tappet that wasnt running high levels of ZDDP.

Solid flat tappets see more wear and tear than the hyd version because of the following areas.
1.) This is due to the fact that hyd flat tappets have more oil in that area. There is oil that escapes from around the lifter bores and baths the cam lobes. On a solid lifter motor you tranditionally dont have oil flowing in that area, no oil passage to feed the lifters. Not the case for all motors but older ones like FE's, 390, are this way. The only oil for the cam is then splash from the crank/rods and what pours down from above. A FYI you can get solid flat tappet lifters for a 460 that have a oil hole EDM'd into them to aid in cam face oiling. A 460(ford) being a pushrod oiled motor.

2.) I would imagine that the lash/solid lifter creates some funky wear forces on the cam lobes as there is no dampening like an oil filled lifter would create. Im no mechanical engineer so I cant really go into detail here. But harmonics and lack of viscous dampening could create alot more force and wear on the cam lobes. Think about it from the standpoint of rev limits for cams. Say a hyd flat tappet lifter tops out at 5500 before it floats the valves and drops off on power. The exact same motor with the same profile cam but in a solid will turn higher rpms before dropping off on power and floating the valves, say 6k in this example. Why is this? The hyd lifters cant mantain the pressure and the approriate "lash" to control the valves. The force of the valvetrain has over come what the lifter can handle. This results in a giant oil leak in that area. Kinda how the rods on a crank oil the bottom side of the pistons, rods, and cam from the controlled oil leak there.