Engine oil! ZDDP! Rabblerabblerabble... A testimonial.

[cruiser54]

MMO is very thin.

 

[2stix]

MMO is very thin.

untill it mixes with your oil. not sure what is in that stuff (it a mystery) but it friggin works. ive used it in many differant vehicles and have seen a big improvement on each. cooler running temps, better mileage, ect. MMO is the ONLY addative i will use.

 

[MoparManiac]

I've had two 4.0s with over 200k on each of them (I put at least 50k miles on each one).

Never once used any ZDDP additives, never bought premium oil. I just bought whatever was on sale at Autozone (Castrol, Mobil, etc.). Never synthetic.

I never once had a problem with them. All ran great, all were beat on hard (rev limiters every day), and never had any obnoxious noises other than piston slap since they were a '91 and '92.

We've also had an '87 Ramcharger with a 440 in it that has 60k miles on the engine. Never used a ZDDP additive except during initial break-in. Same thing, Autozone special oils. Never any unusual noises or smoking or anything.

I think the zinc thing is overhyped. Maybe not for racing applications or the like, but for everyday use I don't think it's necessary.

 

[jeeptorino68]

i feel kind of the same.
i have put 45K on my engine never using any ZDDP addatives or even thinking of them until now, got some lifter tick a while back used MMO before and oil change, and that got alot of crud out.
i just recently added some of the STP addative that was listed earlier in the thread. that stuff is thick!.
i used a funnel, i dont think it will ever run out of my funnel!
i didnt notice any reduced noise.
hopefully it thins out in the engine and wont gum things up...

 

[joe_peters]

I've had two 4.0s with over 200k on each of them (I put at least 50k miles on each one).

Never once used any ZDDP additives, never bought premium oil. I just bought whatever was on sale at Autozone (Castrol, Mobil, etc.). Never synthetic.

I never once had a problem with them. All ran great, all were beat on hard (rev limiters every day), and never had any obnoxious noises other than piston slap since they were a '91 and '92.

We've also had an '87 Ramcharger with a 440 in it that has 60k miles on the engine. Never used a ZDDP additive except during initial break-in. Same thing, Autozone special oils. Never any unusual noises or smoking or anything.

I think the zinc thing is overhyped. Maybe not for racing applications or the like, but for everyday use I don't think it's necessary.

I recommend you read this article. It is one of the best I have found on the ZDDP/detergent/flat-tappet issue: http://www.kiwi-indian.com/pdf/EPQ409_36-39.pdf

While you have never put any ZDDP additives in yourself, it was used in your engine for the initial break-in period from the factory. The Mopar cam/lifter break-in additive is used for the first 1000 miles of a new flat-tappet engine, and it can be left in until the first oil change. Depending on the year of your XJ/4.0 engine, it likely was living on ZDDP for most of its miles.

No, the 4.0 isn't a high-performance flat-tappet engine, or a tweak British/Italian classic engine. Those engines are more prone to problems with low ZDDP oils throughout their service lives than the 4.0 engine is.

I run Shell Rotella T 10w30 in my 90's 4.0 engine for a number of reasons--first and foremost it keeps the guts of the engine cleaner than any non-diesel engine oils would; the second reason is it still contains a reasonable amount of ZDDP; the third reason is how it stands up to heavy load situations--as in off road use.

 

[DieselSJ]

I recommend you read this article. It is one of the best I have found on the ZDDP/detergent/flat-tappet issue: http://www.kiwi-indian.com/pdf/EPQ409_36-39.pdf

So Lake Speed writes an article that is basically just a promotion of his team owner's own products and that is somehow an authoritative review of the subject?

 

[fool4wheelin]

I've had two 4.0s with over 200k on each of them (I put at least 50k miles on each one).

Never once used any ZDDP additives, never bought premium oil. I just bought whatever was on sale at Autozone (Castrol, Mobil, etc.). Never synthetic.

I never once had a problem with them. All ran great, all were beat on hard (rev limiters every day), and never had any obnoxious noises other than piston slap since they were a '91 and '92.

We've also had an '87 Ramcharger with a 440 in it that has 60k miles on the engine. Never used a ZDDP additive except during initial break-in. Same thing, Autozone special oils. Never any unusual noises or smoking or anything.

I think the zinc thing is overhyped. Maybe not for racing applications or the like, but for everyday use I don't think it's necessary.

I think the point is that with the newer "SM" grade oils, the amount of ZDDP has been reduced. It is a proven fact that the EPA has mandated that the levels be reduced, the oil companies will even tell you that. People's experiences before the ZDDP levels were reduced don't apply here.

The question is "does it matter?" and "will the longevity of my engine be comprimised?"

 

[ridgerunner97]

I run Mobil Delvac 1300 Super 15w-40 year round. Shit works great, valvetrain is quiet, the PO was using Mobil 1 synthetic 10-30, it was leakin at the rear main and around the valve cover, and had valve noise like nobody's business, not anymore!!!

 

[joe_peters]

So Lake Speed writes an article that is basically just a promotion of his team owner's own products and that is somehow an authoritative review of the subject?

Not hardly. Did you bother to read the entire article and, like a normal person with average skepticism do some follow up research?

It doesn't appear so.

While the last few paragraphs are a boost for a specific product the rest of the article lay out FACTS you can find with minimal effort. Further, those FACTS are laid out in a logical and concise format.

A mind--a terrible thing to waste. :twak:

 

[DieselSJ]

Not hardly. Did you bother to read the entire article and, like a normal person with average skepticism do some follow up research?

It doesn't appear so.

While the last few paragraphs are a boost for a specific product the rest of the article lay out FACTS you can find with minimal effort. Further, those FACTS are laid out in a logical and concise format.

A mind--a terrible thing to waste. :twak:

Actually Joe...

After having read a study about running a flat tappet engine using aircraft oil, which contains zero zddp, and having zero problems with the camshaft or lifters, I am very skeptical of the information that was presented in that article. Information, I may add, that was presented with zero actual proof.

 

[89gmctd]

STP and equivalents are almost pure ZDDP additives - the Blue bottle is pre-EPA, the Red bottle is post-EPA - prollem being, both are disappearing from the markets because that is the sulphur-derived lubricant that is being removed from fuels, Diesel fuel and others, and oils, due to EPA legislation - ZDDP is very damaging to some of the catalyst used in catalytic converters, rendering them useless - particularly so in gasoline-powered systems - you can easily tell if your choice of oil has ZDDP in any quantity by comparison of the odor when you open the container: if ya smells poop, ya gots sulphur.............wl:

 

[Ecomike]

I recommend you read this article. It is one of the best I have found on the ZDDP/detergent/flat-tappet issue: http://www.kiwi-indian.com/pdf/EPQ409_36-39.pdf

While you have never put any ZDDP additives in yourself, it was used in your engine for the initial break-in period from the factory. The Mopar cam/lifter break-in additive is used for the first 1000 miles of a new flat-tappet engine, and it can be left in until the first oil change. Depending on the year of your XJ/4.0 engine, it likely was living on ZDDP for most of its miles.

No, the 4.0 isn't a high-performance flat-tappet engine, or a tweak British/Italian classic engine. Those engines are more prone to problems with low ZDDP oils throughout their service lives than the 4.0 engine is.

I run Shell Rotella T 10w30 in my 90's 4.0 engine for a number of reasons--first and foremost it keeps the guts of the engine cleaner than any non-diesel engine oils would; the second reason is it still contains a reasonable amount of ZDDP; the third reason is how it stands up to heavy load situations--as in off road use.

Last time I checked "Shell Rotella T 10w30" had no ZDDP in it all. IIRC I checked with the Shell chemist 2 years ago by email.

 

[Ecomike]

Actually Joe...

After having read a study about running a flat tappet engine using aircraft oil, which contains zero zddp, and having zero problems with the camshaft or lifters, I am very skeptical of the information that was presented in that article. Information, I may add, that was presented with zero actual proof.

Last time I checked aircraft engines did not use gasoline, but kerosene like fuel that is more like a diesel fuel than gasoline. Gasoline is more like a solvent, diluting oil, diesel is more like a lubricant than a solvent. Might have something to do with it. The ZDDP issue seems to be most hyper critical during break in period.

 

[DieselSJ]

Last time I checked aircraft engines did not use gasoline, but kerosene like fuel that is more like a diesel fuel than gasoline. Gasoline is more like a solvent, diluting oil, diesel is more like a lubricant than a solvent. Might have something to do with it. The ZDDP issue seems to be most hyper critical during break in period.

I'm not talking turbines...I'm talking piston driven.

 

[Milford Cubicle II]

Actually Joe...

After having read a study about running a flat tappet engine using aircraft oil, which contains zero zddp, and having zero problems with the camshaft or lifters, I am very skeptical of the information that was presented in that article. Information, I may add, that was presented with zero actual proof.

Just because ashless oil doesn't contain ZDP doesn't mean it doesn't contain anti-wear additives, it does, just not ZDP. However, SM and other automotive oils don't use those non-metallic additives.

And just because you cite ONE third party that claims to have had "zero problems" (along with the nice qualifier of "with the camshaft or lifters") doesn't mean it's a good idea. On a mild enough engine you could probably run the damn thing on maple syrup but that doesn't mean it's a good idea.

But for those of us who have high performance engines with more aggressive cams and springs it would make a lot more difference. And if it makes a difference in a high performance engine then it would make a difference in a stock engine too, even if we can't measure it.

Why would you not want to pay a couple dollars per oil change for oil that will make your engine run better longer?

 

[Runnin'OnEmpty]

Anyone heard of "Street Legal Oil Boost'? It was mfg
by Radiator Specialty Company and was a closeout
special at Wat-Mart a couple years ago. Sold for between
1 and 2 bucks for a 16 oz bottle with over 4000 ppm of ZDDP.

Everytime the local w/m would restock their shelves, I'd buy
them out. Now have about 80 bottles of that stuff squirreled
away in the basement.:laugh:

I have 3 out of 4 family vehicles with non-roller cams and
pour 1/2 bottle of the S.L.O.B. in with every oil change.

Why only 1/2 bottle? Too much ZDDP is just as bad as too
little, it seems. Once the ratio gets above .20% the phosphorus
starts attacking the bearing surfaces.....at least that's my
understanding so any comments are welcome...

ROE

 

[milehigh]

ZDDP is not needed in anything but motors that run solid flat tappet lifters, not roller but old school solid. Its not recommended in modern day vehicles as it does destroy the catalytic converter so those of you in emission states could make an expensive mistake.

So to clarify for a stock xj ZDDP is not recommend and should only be used with solid lifters with no concern for catalytic converters

 

[Ecomike]

I'm not talking turbines...I'm talking piston driven.

LOL, I was not talking about turbines or pistons, I was talking about fuel and oil, and metal on metal wear!

This one, posted here earlier is far more accurate and detailed:

http://www.zddplus.com/

 

[Ecomike]

ZDDP is not needed in anything but motors that run solid flat tappet lifters, not roller but old school solid. Its not recommended in modern day vehicles as it does destroy the catalytic converter so those of you in emission states could make an expensive mistake.

So to clarify for a stock xj ZDDP is not recommend and should only be used with solid lifters with no concern for catalytic converters

My engines are worth a hell of a lot more than my cat is. Cats are cheap, engines are not. Lot less work to replace a cat too. I'll stick with my ZDDP thanks.

EPA thought MTBE was a great fuel additive idea once as well! All it did was trade a little less air emissions, for massive drinking water contamination.

 

[Ecomike]

I recommend you read this article. It is one of the best I have found on the ZDDP/detergent/flat-tappet issue: http://www.kiwi-indian.com/pdf/EPQ409_36-39.pdf

Joe, while I agree that adding ZDDP is important in our 4.0s, that article has a bunch of inaccurate statements in it that are flat out wrong and wrong chemically. Surely there are better, more accurate references out there now days?