yikes
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- SE Wisconsin
What are the options for someone with an aftermarket bumper that don't weld so well ?
-
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XJ anti rock kit
- Thread starter Ba-Riedo
- Start date
What are the options for someone with an aftermarket bumper that don't weld so well ?
- Location
- Colorado Springs
buy a drill ?? 
So basically the list of advantages for this system is:
1) Lazy people don't have to get out to disconnect their sway bars
2) It forces the rear to flex more, since the front is some what inhibited, creating a slower body roll when the XJ makes a quick drop?
That's quite an expensive setup for that...
I installed polly bushings on my standard bar and run JKS links. Now its pretty obvious the rear will move more, since the front is restricted, but I don't see how lifting a tire sooner inspires confidence... or am I missing something?
1) Lazy people don't have to get out to disconnect their sway bars
2) It forces the rear to flex more, since the front is some what inhibited, creating a slower body roll when the XJ makes a quick drop?
That's quite an expensive setup for that...
I installed polly bushings on my standard bar and run JKS links. Now its pretty obvious the rear will move more, since the front is restricted, but I don't see how lifting a tire sooner inspires confidence... or am I missing something?
- Location
- Wasatch Range
You are missing quite a bit, actually.
For those of us with daily drivers that regularly see 75mph freeway speeds, wheel a variety of terrain; boulders, sand, high-speed 2 tracks, etc, then the anti-rock setup is where it's at.
I often wheel all of these in the same hour, the front restriction is minimal, the anti-rock setup enhances the overall balance of your suspension.
If your rig spends most of it's time in mud, then you can probably make the case that disco's are fine for your terrain type.
Really, that big of a difference? The stock bar still allows a great amount of flex, depending how your twisted up I guess.
Begster
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Cape Cod/Boston, Mass
Eh, I wouldn't say the stock bar allows for a great amount of flex. I could really tell when I had one connected vs disconnect. And I definitely wouldn't say that they are for lazy people who don't want to get out and disconnect. It was a complete pain trying to disconnect and reconnect, since rarely was I ever on flat ground to be able to take them off.
I'm swaybarless now, but am definitely thinking about anti-rock for the next XJ I build soon.
I'm swaybarless now, but am definitely thinking about anti-rock for the next XJ I build soon.
JWFab 1
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- East Mesa AZ
The main thing is that you will get better traction. For instance, when your disconnected and at "almost" full droop your tire has pretty much no down force. So even know it might be touching something, it wont want to grab it. With a Antirock sway bar that allows it to flex down "all the way to full droop" (the correct way for an antirock to work) your getting that extra down force that you need in order for that tire to grab.
Plus many more benefits but the one above I think is the main reason for it.
- Location
- Wasatch Range
Correct, ground pressure > massive flex
Oh yeah, I can definitely tell its still connected, I'm just saying that if I leave it connected, I can still get a decent amount of flex, no where near full droop, but not completely hindering.
I get it now though, I was under the assumption this was a solid stock material that completely removed roll/sway. So how far could these bars be twisted opposite? Say you had the bar sitting flat on the ground, both ends parallel (forget about the links for a moment) and you twisted them, if you could by hand, in opposite directions. Can you over twist them?
JWFab 1
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- East Mesa AZ
They are vehicle specific. They have different diameters and lengths depending on the rest of your setup.
Yes
Action Fab
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Hot Springs, AR.
I'm going to revive this to put in my two cents.
First let me say this, the anti-rock is an amazing tool to add to the ever growing off road market. I'm glad it's one that Currie spent so much time and money creating. I have had one on the front of 4 of my jeeps and have installed them on many customers jeeps. I have wheeled with and without them and done lots of fine tuning with customers while dialing in their suspension. I know a lot about suspension geometry and have built my fair share of custom linked suspensions under not only wranglers and buggies but XJ's ZJ's and I was even the first guy to build a true double triangulated 4 link in the rear of a JK. I have been wheeling for close to ten yars now, and have put more than 10K trail miles on my TJ alone. I have owned upwards of 15 rigs and have built more than I can count... (over 100). So that being said I have some qualification and am a fairly reliable sorce.
One day I think a lot of you guys will figure this out on your own... but I'll clue you in. flex does not equil capability. Flex in a lot of cases makes a rig unstable and actualy decreases trailability. There are climbs that a stable rig may hug and walk like cake... Your flexy long arm is just going to lean over rare and buck. It cracks me up to watch TJ's on long arm have to winch where my short arms walk... I am a huge advocate of a low COG and thus I never run much of any lift. This is where the short arms come into play... With a low lift hight, short links and limited travel, you are not putting the links at high angles. This allows them to work properly. This is all part of suspension geometry. The reason that longer arms are needed is to make the suspension cycle in a larger arch. a short arm has a very small radius... this is where it gets a bad wrap in the offroad community. If you allow that arm to move to much it will reach a higher angle and "pull" the axle causing large amounts of anti squat... This is the same thing that happends with a long arm too. The differance is that a short arm has less leverage on the jeep and will have less of an effect. Where as a long arm suspension will be like adding a cheater pipe to the end of your axle. As it tries to drive under the rig it will push harder on the sprung weight (the body) because it has a higher mechanical advantage.
Now I am not saying that stock short arms are the best in design. They really are not. The are however better than most off the shelf LA's. That is as long as you keep the suspension travel limited and hight low. It all comes back to link angles. The flater they are the more they will push your vehicle forward. The higher the angle gets the harder they will push up. This is really where the anti-rock comes into play... If you look at the picture on the last few pages of the XJ climbing the bolder... if that tire was allowed to drop further it would create more antisquat and as it touched the rock it would try and force the weigh over on the right rear corner of the XJ... making a roll more possible.
To you guys that rock crawl a lot you will under stand this feeling...
We will start with your typical XJ, 5.5 LA, 35's. It has 12" travel shocks with 3" of up travel, a heavy set of bumpers and a roof rack. Your going up a rock face that has a slight off camber slope to the passenger side. as your rear tires hit the face of the ledge the front driver corner will start to feel light and you will feel a clockwise twisting action trying to take place on your jeep. As the passenger rear suspension tries to compress it takes load off the front suspension and the weight is transfered in a diagnal plath to the passenger rear corner. With 9" of down travel, the front driver control arm is begining to see high angles and starts using its new found mechanical advantige to tourqe back under the jeep and push upwards at the same time this is a snow ball effect that causes the feeling of instability. At this point your suspension isn't working to climb the ledge... instead its trying to push you off in a pirouette.
Now take the same ledge in a jeep with a low COG with a 2" short arm, limited travel with a pair of 8" shocks and proper bumpstops. It's also on 35's has a set of light weight bumpers and no rack. It also has a Anti-rock to keep weight distribution level and add further pressure to the tire trying to drop out. As you start up that ledge in this jeep the suspension will only drop out 5". It also has less mechanical advantage to force weight transfer to the rear. As it begins it's unload the rear suspension takes the added weigh and compresses. But the jeep doesn't torque over it pulls back a little but stays flat relitve to the tires. At this point the suspension is at full bump in the rear and ther front driver tire is a full droop and is off the ground. The tire and half the axle weight are now unsprung weight helping to hold down the driver corner just as if you added a spoter to the corner pushing down. The passenger tire is now at full bump and ther rear driver is 2 inches off the bumpstop. With weight transfered to the front pass. tire and force still applied to both rear tires the jeep starts to asend the ledge... but wrather than trying to pirouette it pulls forward since the weight is still over the front tires and the suspension is not forcing the weight back... it's only gravity doing that at this point. This is where the light weight and Low Center Of Gravity (COG) come into play. The lower your sprung weight is to earth the less weight transfer you will have... it's all a percentage game... the higher the weight the higher the percentage, the more weight you have the more will be shifted.
Any ways I'm not trying to write a novel here but these are some things that I have come to realize on my own. And why I plan to build a new Mid Arm for the XJ's soon. The days of 36" control arms and 6" lifts will soon be gone as more and more people realize what I have. one of the good things about the XJ are its rear leafs. Leafs in the rear are an awesome way to combat an unstable front suspension. But it's only a band-aid. If you ever were to feel the real stability that a proper suspension gives you would see the light too. The Anti-Rock is an awesome suspension aid and it, in a nut shell, keeps weight transfer to a minimum while still allowing the suspension to travel a reasonable amount.
Hope that all made since... if not ask me what you don't get and I'll try to do a better job explaining.
-Chris
First let me say this, the anti-rock is an amazing tool to add to the ever growing off road market. I'm glad it's one that Currie spent so much time and money creating. I have had one on the front of 4 of my jeeps and have installed them on many customers jeeps. I have wheeled with and without them and done lots of fine tuning with customers while dialing in their suspension. I know a lot about suspension geometry and have built my fair share of custom linked suspensions under not only wranglers and buggies but XJ's ZJ's and I was even the first guy to build a true double triangulated 4 link in the rear of a JK. I have been wheeling for close to ten yars now, and have put more than 10K trail miles on my TJ alone. I have owned upwards of 15 rigs and have built more than I can count... (over 100). So that being said I have some qualification and am a fairly reliable sorce.
One day I think a lot of you guys will figure this out on your own... but I'll clue you in. flex does not equil capability. Flex in a lot of cases makes a rig unstable and actualy decreases trailability. There are climbs that a stable rig may hug and walk like cake... Your flexy long arm is just going to lean over rare and buck. It cracks me up to watch TJ's on long arm have to winch where my short arms walk... I am a huge advocate of a low COG and thus I never run much of any lift. This is where the short arms come into play... With a low lift hight, short links and limited travel, you are not putting the links at high angles. This allows them to work properly. This is all part of suspension geometry. The reason that longer arms are needed is to make the suspension cycle in a larger arch. a short arm has a very small radius... this is where it gets a bad wrap in the offroad community. If you allow that arm to move to much it will reach a higher angle and "pull" the axle causing large amounts of anti squat... This is the same thing that happends with a long arm too. The differance is that a short arm has less leverage on the jeep and will have less of an effect. Where as a long arm suspension will be like adding a cheater pipe to the end of your axle. As it tries to drive under the rig it will push harder on the sprung weight (the body) because it has a higher mechanical advantage.
Now I am not saying that stock short arms are the best in design. They really are not. The are however better than most off the shelf LA's. That is as long as you keep the suspension travel limited and hight low. It all comes back to link angles. The flater they are the more they will push your vehicle forward. The higher the angle gets the harder they will push up. This is really where the anti-rock comes into play... If you look at the picture on the last few pages of the XJ climbing the bolder... if that tire was allowed to drop further it would create more antisquat and as it touched the rock it would try and force the weigh over on the right rear corner of the XJ... making a roll more possible.
To you guys that rock crawl a lot you will under stand this feeling...
We will start with your typical XJ, 5.5 LA, 35's. It has 12" travel shocks with 3" of up travel, a heavy set of bumpers and a roof rack. Your going up a rock face that has a slight off camber slope to the passenger side. as your rear tires hit the face of the ledge the front driver corner will start to feel light and you will feel a clockwise twisting action trying to take place on your jeep. As the passenger rear suspension tries to compress it takes load off the front suspension and the weight is transfered in a diagnal plath to the passenger rear corner. With 9" of down travel, the front driver control arm is begining to see high angles and starts using its new found mechanical advantige to tourqe back under the jeep and push upwards at the same time this is a snow ball effect that causes the feeling of instability. At this point your suspension isn't working to climb the ledge... instead its trying to push you off in a pirouette.
Now take the same ledge in a jeep with a low COG with a 2" short arm, limited travel with a pair of 8" shocks and proper bumpstops. It's also on 35's has a set of light weight bumpers and no rack. It also has a Anti-rock to keep weight distribution level and add further pressure to the tire trying to drop out. As you start up that ledge in this jeep the suspension will only drop out 5". It also has less mechanical advantage to force weight transfer to the rear. As it begins it's unload the rear suspension takes the added weigh and compresses. But the jeep doesn't torque over it pulls back a little but stays flat relitve to the tires. At this point the suspension is at full bump in the rear and ther front driver tire is a full droop and is off the ground. The tire and half the axle weight are now unsprung weight helping to hold down the driver corner just as if you added a spoter to the corner pushing down. The passenger tire is now at full bump and ther rear driver is 2 inches off the bumpstop. With weight transfered to the front pass. tire and force still applied to both rear tires the jeep starts to asend the ledge... but wrather than trying to pirouette it pulls forward since the weight is still over the front tires and the suspension is not forcing the weight back... it's only gravity doing that at this point. This is where the light weight and Low Center Of Gravity (COG) come into play. The lower your sprung weight is to earth the less weight transfer you will have... it's all a percentage game... the higher the weight the higher the percentage, the more weight you have the more will be shifted.
Any ways I'm not trying to write a novel here but these are some things that I have come to realize on my own. And why I plan to build a new Mid Arm for the XJ's soon. The days of 36" control arms and 6" lifts will soon be gone as more and more people realize what I have. one of the good things about the XJ are its rear leafs. Leafs in the rear are an awesome way to combat an unstable front suspension. But it's only a band-aid. If you ever were to feel the real stability that a proper suspension gives you would see the light too. The Anti-Rock is an awesome suspension aid and it, in a nut shell, keeps weight transfer to a minimum while still allowing the suspension to travel a reasonable amount.
Hope that all made since... if not ask me what you don't get and I'll try to do a better job explaining.
-Chris
