**UPDATED** HHO GAS....

[lrainman]

Why did the last thread from yesterday get thrown in the garbage? I sent a pm due to the resistance from well pretty much everyone on this site. Here is some info, because of this thread I just went and filled up with my HHO generator running and got 21.8 mpg with 4" lift, 32's, and 4.10 gearing. Before I averaged around 18. So this is a 20% increase I would say not to bad. I don't want to sell these, it is just something to tinker with. I installed one on a 2001 Tacoma with 3" lift and 32's and it went from 19mpg to 26.5, so two vehicles I have it installed on are showing what I would consider big gains.

 

[4x4 Station Wagon]

Actually it was my tacoma and the first go around was 26.6 and i just filled back up and it was only 23.2. I am not trying to sell anything i dont care if you drive around at 6 MPG that is your choice. It was simple to make why dont you try it before you bash it. I just heard from lrainman that you dont believe since you enjoy checking prior posts check mine i havent been on here in a while and it will only show that i had to try and remember my password to get back on. OR dont believe us...... Free country

 

[Ecomike]

Well I would like the details as you go from tank of gas to tank of gas.

I assume you built your own electrolysis cell? Mind sharing the details? Plate size, material, area, electrode spacing, amount of water, what did you use for the tank, amount and type of electrolyte used, and details on the plumbing for the gas? How did you seal the cell, or how did you make it resealable for adding DI water, and cleaning the electrodes (if needed)?

 

[swbooking]

Like Goodburbon said. Its the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.
Its a law. You cant break it. Free energy is not possible.
If this was so easy dont you think EVERY car manufacturer would have this installed in their products? They dont spend millions of dollars each year in engine development for nothing...

Read this for the 2nd Law of thermodynamics
http://www.panspermia.org/seconlaw.htm

Heres a whole thread on Yahoo, explain why this doesnt work as well...

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080426100427AAKwjq9

and yes, im with EcoMike, if this does work so well. Can you post pics of your setup in your XJ and all the specs as Mike has listed? And possibly more documented proof of your increase in milage.

 

[Ecomike]

I think part of the answer to this is that Detroit has given a damn about fuel efficiency in over 15 years now. They are just now slaming on the brakes and starting over, while the Japs have been working on perfecting hybrid tech for over 10 years.
Anyway, I just turned a news page showing MIT working a germany company on an an engine design to take advantage of the HHO gas suplementation

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/11/hydrogenenhance.html

So like I said, while there are bunch of get rich crooks out there selling this idea, there is more here than meets the eye with a simple pertual motion analysis. There seems to some work going on at reputable places like MIT (and prior work at DOE) heading straight for the car market with this!

Here is the bookmark (I saved from my prior google research) on the Canadian company selling 1,000s of these already to major truck freight haulers up north. They were getting 6 month RTOs on a $10,000 instalation, or thereabouts, but here is the link with the real story.

http://www.chechfi.ca/tehisyst.htm

 

[M.Sage]

Brown gas.. stop and think a second.

The truth about these "generators" is that they're not going to really gain you anything.

You have to use electricity from your car to produce the hydrogen and oxygen mix that will be put into your engine. Anybody who knows the first thing about automotive electrical will know that the more electrical load you put on your alternator, the more engine torque is needed to turn the alternator. The bond between the hydrogen and oxygen that you're breaking takes just as much energy to break as you can get from it by burning it (which just reinstates the bond). Along the way, you're going to lose a lot of that energy to heat and wasted motion... and more heat. Most energy lost in an engine is in the form of heat.

I'm sorry, but these brown gas generators are snake oil, guys. Google "laws of thermodynamics" and "TANSTAAFL". It'd be great if they worked, but laws of physics are laws that can't be broken.

Use solar to make brown gas and then somehow separate the hydrogen out, then you've got (mostly) free energy.

FWIW, I've got all the ASE automotive repair certs. Master and L1. I know a thing or two about how engines and electrical work.

Seems a DOE research project back in 1976-78 showed that small amounts of hydrogen fed to diesel engines improved the MPG about 25% above and beyond the fuel used to generate the electlricity to generate the hydrogen. Seems the hydrogen feed improves the combustion process enough to improve the power and energy yield of the diesel engine running 95% diesel, 5% (apx) hydrogen.

So you're saying that they're running just hydrogen, not hydrogen and oxygen together? I can't see how you'd get an actual advantage from adding fuel and oxygen (in a stoich mix, no less) to the mix already going into the combustion chambers. Adding another fuel (hydrogen) would make sense.

Problem with the "hydrogen generators" is that your alternator is on-demand. You want more juice, it takes more power. You're not getting more power from the hydrogen and oxygen you just used that electricity to split apart than you'll get from putting them back.

I have also read that the people trying it on gas engines are having problems with the stock O2 sensor and computer controls, and they are working on getting around the A/F ratio computer control problem.

That would be if you're adding only hydrogen, which is adding fuel. You'll kick the fuel trims too far lean, which will set codes and check engine light, and possibly a fail-safe mode.

Any tinkering with the A/F control in the computer will have to be done legally, as bypassing or eliminating emissions control systems is illegal in the US under the Clean Air Act.

The interesting thing about the 70's DOE research was that it also reduced diesel exhaust carbon, soute (sp?), PM, and unburned hydrocarbons to current EPA limits with out filters and cat converters that are going on this years models.

Only because they're reducing the amount of carbon fuels being used by using a non hydrocarbon fuel, in this case hydrogen.

The study you mentioned doesn't sound like they were running "brown gas", but instead actually using hydrogen gas.

 

[Ecomike]

Something to wet your all's appetite!

"The technology of using hydrogen as a combustion enhancement in internal combustion engines has been researched and proven for many years. The benefits are factual and well documented. Our own utilization of this technology. i.e. the CHEC HFI hydrogen injection system, has also been tested and proven both by institutions and in hundreds of practical applications in road vehicles.
Here is a synopsis of a sampling of the research that has been done:
In 1974 John Houseman and D.J/Cerini of the Jet Propulsion Lab, California Institute of Technology produced a report for the Society of Automotive Engineers entitled "On-Board Hydrogen Generator for a Partial Hydrogen Injection Internal Combustion Engine".
In 1974 F.W. Hoehn and M.W. Dowy of the Jet Propulsion Lab, prepared a report for the 9th Inter society Energy Conversion Engineering Conference, entitled "Feasibility Demonstration of a Road Vehicle Fueled with Hydrogen Enriched Gasoline."
In the early eighties George Vosper P. Eng., ex-professor of Dynamics and Canadian inventor, designed and patented a device to transform internal combustion engines to run on hydrogen. He later affirms: "A small amount of hydrogen added to the air intake of a gasoline engine would enhance the flame velocity and thus permit the engine to operate with leaner air to gasoline mixture than otherwise possible. The result, far less pollution with more power and better mileage." In 1995, Wagner, Jamal and Wyszynski, at the Birmingham, of University Engineering, Mechanical and Manufacturing>, demonstrated the advantages of "Fractional addition of hydrogen to internal combustion engines by exhaust gas fuel reforming." The process yielded benefits in improved combustion stability and reduced nitrogen oxides and hydrocarbon emissions."

found at:

http://www.chechfi.ca/tehisyst.htm

Also they claim to have EPA ETV verification of their performance. That is kind of like a UL label except it is in the environmental field!

"

Like Goodburbon said. Its the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.
Its a law. You cant break it. Free energy is not possible.
If this was so easy dont you think EVERY car manufacturer would have this installed in their products? They dont spend millions of dollars each year in engine development for nothing...

Read this for the 2nd Law of thermodynamics
http://www.panspermia.org/seconlaw.htm

Heres a whole thread on Yahoo, explain why this doesnt work as well...

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080426100427AAKwjq9

and yes, im with EcoMike, if this does woek so well. Can you post pics of your setup in your XJ and all the specs as Mike has listed?

Once again I will say that there are crooks and scoundrels out there selling and promoting this as a perpetual motion device, with all kinds of thermodynamically impossible claims, But on the points I have made in this and the original thread I posted the link to, and based on PM discussions I had with 5-90; 5-90 and I agreed that the current gas engine is so inefficient that the HHO supplementation and retuning of the engine to run a little leaner (with out burning up due to the HHO feed), could easily show improved MPGs of 30% if the DOE study on diesel fuel also works on gasoline. And I can't think of any reason it would not.

 

[lrainman]

Well I would like the details as you go from tank of gas to tank of gas.

I assume you built your own electrolysis cell? Mind sharing the details? Plate size, material, area, electrode spacing, amount of water, what did you use for the tank, amount and type of electrolyte used, and details on the plumbing for the gas? How did you seal the cell, or how did you make it resealable for adding DI water, and cleaning the electrodes (if needed)?

I would be more than happy to keep everyone informed on tank to tank results, I'm willing to be the ginny pig! The resistance to the very idea of it working is just amazing to me, scares the hell out of me there isn't to many people with an open mind.

The cell is made out of 3" sch 40 pvc, 5" piece, glue on bottom cap, slip x female top with 3" threaded plug, for a total height of 9 1/2". The threaded plug is the top where I can change the water and check the electrodes, I hand tighten it but it has never seize on it so that I can get it back apart when needed. The electrodes are 2" apart inside the cell and they are 3/8" stainless allthread with 5 stainless nuts and 2 washers on the negative side and 4 stainless nuts and 2 stainless washers on the positive side for surface area, these are threaded and sealed through the top which is the plug so that I can make my electrical connections. Also threaded into the plug is a 1/4" npt x 3/8" barbed brass fitting for my 3/8" fuel line connection. The 3/8" fuel line is routed around the back of the engine compartment over to the airbox, where another 1/4" npt x 3/8' barbed brass fitting is threaded into the back of the stock air box on top of the filter. This particular cell is not quite one quart of water, to be exact it holds 720mls of water which is 230 mls short of a quart. I still mix my Distilled water and baking soda one quart at a time I just don't put all of it in there. The mix is 1 qt water to 1 tablespoon baking soda. This unit with the current mix of water and baking soda and the amount of stainless I have runs on less than 15 amps of power. I have it wired into my ignition so that it comes on and off with the key, it is double fused one at the fuse block under the dash and one inline before the unit itself. I am willing to post pictures of it on here if anyone would like? It will be tomorrow though due to it being dark now.

 

[swbooking]

I agree that the Otto Engine is VERY inefficeint. I believe it has a 30% efficiency (at most). Yes i do think there is ways to create a better efficiency, but i can't believe that this HHO stuff is whats going to do it.

Until i have valid proof and documentation of gains, I'm not gonna sit and discuss the validity of free energy / prepetual motion. Its a law of physics and thats it.

EDIT: ^^^ Now thats a little more like it irainman. Pics please.

 

[lrainman]

For all the people that say it will not work have you and or anyone you know even tried it? I am not saying that it is free by no means, but I have seen the mpg gains and several of my friends have also, don't ask me to explain the how because it is over my head, I was just willing to give it a shot. I do not want to sell any of these!!!!

 

[swbooking]

Send me a kit. Ill be glad to do all the documentation necessary to prove this true or false.

 

[Ecomike]

M.Sage,

Why are you hung up on this browns gas versus hydrogen supply?

For the most part browns gas has a stoichiometric amount of oxygen traveling with the hydrogen from the electrolysis cell. The hydrogen needs oxygen to burn from somewhere.

 

[gradon]

So a qt of that lasts for how many miles?
I meant <3/4qt--one full cell

 

[M.Sage]

M.Sage,

Why are you hung up on this browns gas versus hydrogen supply?

For the most part browns gas has a stoichiometric amount of oxygen traveling with the hydrogen from the electrolysis cell. The hydrogen needs oxygen to burn from somewhere.

Exactly, and if it's stoich, you're not using the hydrogen portion to the fullest benefit.

You'll be putting back together exactly what you've split apart to get energy.. energy you've lost (and then a lot) to split it apart.

Straight hydrogen allows you to lean out the fuel mixture, using less hydrocarbon fuel in the combustion.

Brown gas vs hydrogen gas is a huge difference. Electrolysis using the vehicle's electrical system is just idiotic, too.

For all the people that say it will not work have you and or anyone you know even tried it? I am not saying that it is free by no means, but I have seen the mpg gains and several of my friends have also, don't ask me to explain the how because it is over my head, I was just willing to give it a shot. I do not want to sell any of these!!!!

... because I understand some basic physics and electrical theory?

 

[lrainman]

Send me a kit. Ill be glad to do all the documentation necessary to prove this true or false.

I just told you what was in mine and how it went together, you can build it for less that 50 bucks, so build one for yourself, and give it a try.

 

[lrainman]

... because I understand some basic physics and electrical theory?

At this point I don't care if you understand physics and electrical theory, IT WORKED FOR ME AND SEVERAL OF MY FRIENDS

 

[lrainman]

So a qt of that lasts for how many miles?
I meant <3/4qt--one full cell

It will last around 500 miles or so, give or take a 100. I haven't seen anyone run it until it quit producing.

 

[Ecomike]

The resistance to the very idea of it working is just amazing to me, scares the hell out of me there isn't to many people with an open mind.

That is one of the many reasons many working inventions never get the market place, and why the ones that do take so long to get there.

I have some practical concerns about safety issues, like making sure sudden stops don't shake the water up and send water flying into the gas line into the engine, or into the air filter anyway?

So it sounds like you did not use any plates, just round threaded rods for most part?

I wonder if 15 amps at 12 volts is not boiling some of the water? I would think it would be more efficient with large flat plates, with a closer gap.

It only takes about 2.2 volts IIRC to efficiently split water, I suspect the device could be designed to be much more electrically efficient, but I don't have the emperical data needed to figure out the best electrode spacing, voltage and salt (baking soda) concentration.

 

[swbooking]

I just told you what was in mine and how it went together, you can build it for less that 50 bucks, so build one for yourself, and give it a try.

I dont have $50 to spend on something that has analytical proof in not being fesible.

Just send me one, and we'll put this discussion to an end.
or
someone show me the documented proof of increase in effciency and I will shut my mouth.

 

[lrainman]

That is one of the many reasons many working inventions never get the market place, and why the ones that do take so long to get there.

I have some practical concerns about safety issues, like making sure sudden stops don't shake the water up and send water flying into the gas line into the engine, or into the air filter anyway?

So it sounds like you did not use any plates, just round threaded rods for most part?

I wonder if 15 amps at 12 volts is not boiling some of the water? I would think it would be more efficient with large flat plates, with a closer gap.

It only takes about 2.2 volts IIRC to efficiently split water, I suspect the device could be designed to be much more electrically efficient, but I don't have the emperical data needed to figure out the best electrode spacing, voltage and salt (baking soda) concentration.

I used no plates, the revision will have plates in it spaced 1/4" apart, with one more on the negative side because it is my understanding this makes it work better. The current version very well may be boiling the water but I have blown no fuses. Friends of mine have plates in theirs that are off of the allthread with way tighter spacing than mine. I just wanted to get a starting point and then figure out what works best for my vehicle, so this is and will be a work in progress.