superior or Warn

[Beezil]

show us a chart or post a link that explains why we flog the livin hell out of our warns and ctms, and don't have problems......

you went on record as saying warn shafts are too brittle.....

you simply don't know what the hell you are talking about.....

 

[Weasel]

getting touchy aren't we. You don't wheel them hard enough to break them. :shrug: Frankie(PBB) broke three sets of Warns in one day on his buggy, all are brittle fractures. You would have found that if you would have read through the threads I posted. Billavista, Goat1, and PIG would back me up on this and I do know what the hell I'm talking bout.

Warn makes good axle but they aren't the best, which is what this thread is about.

 

[Beezil]

then let your POR heros voice their opinions.

"I heard" info is not helpful.

I suppose you would argue that grade 8 bolts are weaker than grade 5 bolts because they are too hard and brittle, and you know a couple guys who have broken them.

triangles are stronger than x braces, aren't they?

 

[strokedwoody]

show us a chart or post a link that explains why we flog the livin hell out of our warns and ctms, and don't have problems......

you went on record as saying warn shafts are too brittle.....

you simply don't know what the hell you are talking about.....

All I can speak for is what I own.....Yes, Warn does make a better than stock shaft, will it break ...yes. Does it have a warrenty?....that remains to be seen...I sent them Two stub shafts over two months ago....mine haven't been warrentied...still waiting, called and got the run around.I bought mine through 4wheel parts wholesalers who told me they would be warrentied if I sent the shafts to them and the breakage wasn't due to joint failure, now how they can tell that is beyond me, with one stub there is no question about what happened the yoke split in half and the "ears" were all together no prob. The other stub I honestly don't know what caused it to break, at the time of its detonation I also broke A CTM(the second one in the last 2 years)so who knows what caused which to break on that one.
Now that being said, I abuse my rig, I'm not kind at all. CTM has honored their warrenty with no problems what so ever, got my replacements in a couple of weeks. With the shafts, however, 4wheel parts would not send a replacement unless I paid for it (which I did the first time one broke)then they would "evaluate"(WTF that means) and warrenty. I have yet to receive anything after two months. They did take A LOT of abuse before breaking and I would buy them again, I'm just getting a little pissed about their "customer noservice".

 

[Weasel]

It's PBB not POR. Pirates of the Rubicon is totally different.

And FYI I was never involved in any of the triangle vs. X B.S. so I have no idea why you keep bringing it up.

Hero's hardly, they are just people that are well respected by the PBB for their knowledge.

Grade 8 vs Grade five? Please, totaly different subject and issue. Grade 8+(if there are such things) are the brittle bolts anyways.

 

[race_judge]

I busted my stock D-30 long shaft in Moab Sat, and I need new shafts, I am not that hard on my stuff normally, just did a stupid thing( and I am not telling what) , who sells the yukon shafts at a good price?

John

 

[Bryan C.]

I busted my stock D-30 long shaft in Moab Sat, and I need new shafts, I am not that hard on my stuff normally, just did a stupid thing( and I am not telling what) , who sells the yukon shafts at a good price?

John

http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=17825

 

[ECKSJAY]

It's PBB not POR. Pirates of the Rubicon is totally different.

ROFL, son I hate to break it to you...:shhh:
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=pirates+of+the+rubicon&ei=UTF-8&fr=fp-tab-web-t&cop=mss&tab=

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=pirate+bulletin+board&ei=UTF-8&fr=fp-tab-web-t&n=20&fl=0&x=wrt

Grade 8 vs Grade five? Please, totaly different subject and issue. Grade 8+(if there are such things) are the brittle bolts anyways.

Do yourself a favor and just stop now... :roflmao:

 

[FarmerMatt]

Ok, first off read this:
Axle Tech

Another good Axle thread for info:
Mark Williams

Also if you have it handy read Carroll Smith Engineering to Win inregards to Axle design. Just another refrence if you are interested.

Now from the above information and the information that has been gathered by years of other making axles, when heat treating axles you do not want the to have a Rockwell hardness above 50. This makes the shaft to brittle and they snap. Warn's shafts are around 55-57 RC. If I'm wrong on the RC numbers or off a bit please correct me. If you look at the magority of failed Warn shaft they are all a brittle fracture or snapped when the broke. Coincidence? I think not. And here's a link's of places with lots of broken Warn shafts.
Link 1
Pile of Warn's

I can't find the numbers on the Superior RC shafts. The yukon's have been tested and have a RC in a range of 42-45.
Yukon Testing
But if Superior has a heat treatment of 46-48 their shafts will be better then Warn's. 46-48 is the ideal range because it is as high as you can go with 4340 and not become brittle.
For those of you interested in Yukon shafts here's a good thread for you to read.
Yukon
They seem to be a decent upgrade if you want to step up from stock stuff and not go Warn/Superior.

As for the comments that sicne I don't have these shafts I can't say anything about them, I think that's BS. Axle engineering isn't hard but there are a few design and material design you need to follow. These have been tried and proven for all motorsport application for 30+ years. Why reinvent the wheel. By checking to see if the axles follow the proven designs then you can judge if one's better then the other. Hopefully this answer some of your questions. of how and why I've based my comments.

First of all PBB or POR (It's known to many as both) is not the end all be all of anything & to use it as a reference is doubtful at best. Many of the people on that forum know of what they speak, but a reference is actual scientific data, not a thread on an internet forum. I read through every link you posted, most I had read previously, & no where did I see any actual data on either the warns or superiors. How do you know that the warns are "harder"? You know it because you heard it on PBB? Not trying to get down on you too hard, but so far you've shown you're talking out of your ass. You have no first hand knowledge, no "real world" experience, & the only reference to actual data you have is off of PBB showing numbers for yukon axles. I again ask you to post up data sheets on both warn & superior so we all can see the difference in them. Until than I would ask you to consider that you may not actually know what you're talking about. Superior may be better, but only time will tell this or actual data on their shafts. FWIW I had no problems getting my broken warn shaft warrantied.

Matt

 

[Beezil]

And FYI I was never involved in any of the triangle vs. X B.S. so I have no idea why you keep bringing it up.

.

triangles add strength not "X's".

I'm sorry, that musta' been the other "Weasel" from Billings Montana that spewed that.....my sincerest apologies.

I forgot you were some kind of engineering student.....please continue, and enlighten the rest of us unconversant greenhorns. I'll just sit here and absorb your technical explanations, so I can regurgitate and convince folks on other jeep boards I'm a master of a subject, knowing that if my credibility comes into question, I can just drop your name.

 

[OT]

I'm sorry, that musta' been the other "Weasel" from Billings Montana that spewed that.....my sincerest apologies.

I forgot you were some kind of engineering student.....please continue, and enlighten the rest of us unconversant greenhorns. I'll just sit here and absorb your technical explanations, so I can regurgitate and convince folks on other jeep boards I'm a master of a subject, knowing that if my credibility comes into question, I can just drop your name.

I smell over-moderation a brewin'.

 

[Weasel]

opps, now where was that at? I believe that was taken out of context but oh well.

Looks like I need to read things a bit slower in regards to FarmerMatt's post. I don't think anyone has done a complete analysis on either axles. Anyways, I will email Warn and Superior tommorrow and see if they can give me RC numbers because until I have some numbers my arguements are sort of nulled. I doubt I can get much more from them about the tech specs on their axles due to keeping their trade secrets safe, ect. Maybe I can get complete blanks for testing. As for the rest tech terms, ect I have posted the data and resources. I realize BB are just a tool and not a research or techinal data archive and nor do I treat them as such.

So I'm a engineering student, big deal. All that does it give me access to materials, ect for proper design, ect. I never said anyone was "unconversant greenhorns", so please don't put words in my mouth. If I indicated so by posting all that axle tech, it wasn't meant to be like that. Just want to make sure everyone's on the same page; if you've already seen it/read it, then great.

And despite what Yahoo may tell you there is a clear distinction between POR and PBB.

As for Warn's warrenty they seems to up hold it pretty well. Most get their stuff replaced and only a few have had problems.

 

[Weasel]

Ok I found you all a chart. And it was in the links I posted earlier.

Now this doesn't come directly from Warn or Superior but is Complided by BillaVista. He used to be on these fourms all the time when he had his XJ. He says in his review that all this information was complided from speaking with the companies.

Superior 4340 Through hardened to RC35 and Induction hardened to RC 52
Warn 4340 Through hardened Hardened to Rockwell C 55

Both are made of the same material. The better heat treatment goes to Superior although a heat treatment similar to what Mark Willams does would be best IMO. Rockwell goes to Superior also, although it's a tad higher then I think it should be but definatly better then Warn's. 55 is too high making it brittle.

What else do you guys want?

 

[Beezil]

well, now I'm convinced.

warn axles *are* too hard.

they'll probably break any second.

I am going to sell my warn axles and buy superior immediately.....

ask billavista how many girraffes are in the Lincon Park zoo.

 

[strokedwoody]

FWIW I had no problems getting my broken warn shaft warrantied.

Matt

Who did you contact? Warn directly or the retailer that sold them? Tell me the secrect to getting mine warrentied. Did it take two months? I'm not doubting you at all ,just want mine warrentied. CTM and ARB warrentied their stuff in a couple of weeks.

 

[jeepme]

Hey Jeff:

How 'bout the OX shafts? Are they available yet? They look seriously beefy, must be used with an OX joint (but I'm sure that's a good thing)! I called the # you gave for the rep, talked to him briefly, but he never got back to me with any pricing/availability info. So what's the scoop? Has anyone looked into these?

I cant remember who told me but I was told they are around $900.00 to $1,000.00..............ouch thats d44 time for that kind of money.

 

[FarmerMatt]

I bought my shafts through Drivetrane Wharehouse (same company as 4WPW & same customer service). I just talked to their customer service guys. The inner short side EB 44 shaft that I needed wasn't in stock so I sent mine in without giving them a credit card. The shaft came in about a week later & they sent it back to me without a problem.

Weasel, thank you, I didn't see that chart showing the different shaft makers & stats, but I'm still leary of info just thrown out there without reference as it's done in Bills article. Bill has been around the block a long time & I do trust his info, but the question still remains what truely makes the superiors better. The yukon gears were tested to be in a RC range of 45-48 (IIRC). That's a 3 point spread. Bill is stating that the superiors are 52 & the warns are 55. That is also just a 3 point spread. You're a ME student, what's the deal with RC points & how big of a difference is there between these 2 shafts. From where I'm sitting (just a dumb old farm boy) they're pretty damn close to the same. On the info provided I'd still go with the better warranty even though I have broken a warn shaft. If it was a superior I would have been out of warranty on this shaft.

I guess the underlying point is, & a huge pet peave of mine, if you haven't done the research yourself & don't have the proof or knowledge than don't post as if you know all the answers. Reading & gathering info off of one board & regergitating out on another is how many misconceptions &, to use Beezil's phrase, SPOBI starts snow balling. Don't be a SPOBI spreader. I've got to run by a machine shop in town this afternoon & I have a warn shaft sitting on my workbench so I'll have them RC it real quick cause now you have me curious.

Matt

 

[jeepme]

Wow well I thought it was going to be a simple question :doh: good thing I didnt ask the TJ verses XJ question. Anyway thanks for the replies but it seems that the REAL WORLD best choice for the money is the warns.........................unless of course we can see REAL Manufacturers specs

 

[ECKSJAY]

Matt, just for giggles do you have a stock shaft you could have done too? I'm just curious...

The yukon gears were tested to be in a RC range of 45-48 (IIRC). That's a 3 point spread. Bill is stating that the superiors are 52 & the warns are 55. That is also just a 3 point spread. You're a ME student, what's the deal with RC points & how big of a difference is there between these 2 shafts. From where I'm sitting (just a dumb old farm boy) they're pretty damn close to the same. On the info provided I'd still go with the better warranty even though I have broken a warn shaft. If it was a superior I would have been out of warranty on this shaft.

I've got to run by a machine shop in town this afternoon & I have a warn shaft sitting on my workbench so I'll have them RC it real quick cause now you have me curious.

Matt

 

[FarmerMatt]

Actually I do have a stock shaft & also a Currie shaft. I'll see what kind of favors I can pull.

Matt