Pulled the cover and nothing fell out....diagnose this pattern...(BIG PICS)

[Ralph]

I'm not positive on the brand of gears, I bought them second hand from Dave Nay, I believe they were either superior or precision, but I don't honestly recall.

IIRC, Dave complained that they were noisy for him as well. One of the reasons he replaced the 8.25.

RR3

 

[XJRubicon]

I don't know what your talking about but I would NEVER put a pattern like that in any rig of mine....

 

[Safari Ary]

I'm not positive on the brand of gears, I bought them second hand from Dave Nay, I believe they were either superior or precision, but I don't honestly recall.

IIRC, Dave complained that they were noisy for him as well. One of the reasons he replaced the 8.25.

RR3

This is true, however Dave has a reputation for being very particular about noises in his rig. I can deal with a little bit of gear whine. This is NOT a little bit of gear whine. I'm running BFG ATs at the moment, and I still have to have my radio to at least half volume to hear it(point about the tires is I'm not trying to drown out tire noise as well). Thanks

BTW, I don't feel like I got shorted by Dave at all, he warned me that they would be noisy and the noise level they produced when I picked the truck up was acceptable, but it has gotten much worse since then.

Ary

 

[Beezil]

to all of you that have a problem with the pattern.

please post how many R&P jobs you've actually done.

that would be interesting.

 

[MrShoeBoy]

to all of you that have a problem with the pattern.

please post how many R&P jobs you've actually done.

that would be interesting.

I have done 2 myself, and watched/helped do 3 others.

How intresting is that :laugh3:
AARON

 

[XJRubicon]

Hey beez... I have been doing ring and pinion installs for like 8 years...

On everything from a little 7.5 inch Ring gear on a 83' supra, to the massive 10.5 on the 14 bolt.

I believe if you showed these pics to the guys at randys, they would tell you that you have an incorect pattern and they would recomend new gears.

Gear noise is metal on metal grinding... louder the noise... the sooner your ring and pinion will fail.

And don't forget metal on metal grinding causes heat, heat causes oil to breaks down and bearing and seal failure.

Those are the facts.

So... it may work for you like that.... and you may be cool with just turning up the radio...but that doesn't make it right.

People come here to find answers and solutions to problems.

That gear pattern is a future problem.

 

[Beezil]

aaron.....

yeah, I think you are proving my point.....

since you've done them before, you know damn well it is very difficult to center a pattern on both the drive and coast side, between the topland and root, and the heel and toe.

Experience and research will tell you, it is most important to center the pattern from topland the root (with proper backlash) which is what arys pattern shows, although it is hard to tell, as gears that have many miles on them will show a FAT pattern. Any gearhead who has done R&P jobs for a while knows to concentrate on centering the pattern from topland to root.

Call up Randy and ask him what he thinks, he'll tell you.

When I talked to ary last, I asked him to get a hold of a dial indicator and measure the backlash and carrier bearing preload (by the "deflection method") because my wild-ass guess is that it is more open than spec. Otherwise, the pattern is laying FAT across the toothface in a nice hotdog shape, neither favoring the topland or the root, and that's all you can hope for.

IMO, ary should not attempt to make any pinion depth changes.

ary, please concentrate on measuring the BL and CB preload.

also, you need to title a post so that you can attract the attention of the folks who have first hand experience with arb's. I have none, but your description sure sounded like you had that arb lock-up on you somehow. I don't know if that can happen with that locker not "connected" like your is....

What gear oil were you running?

 

[RCP Phx]

Beezil,I have never disagreed with anything you have ever said and dont intend to now.Im 44 and have probably setup 20 in my life.I did find the C8.25 to be the easiest/hardest to work on.Nice having the spanners on the carrier but difficult pulling a good pattern.The pics Ary posted suck,but it still looks like it is running high (up the face)on both drive/coast!

 

[Safari Ary]

the gear oil is Redline synthetic I believe. Definately 100% synthetic, just not 100% on the name.

 

[pancake]

Off topic...but how do you like those Bilsteins?

 

[Beezil]

Beezil,I have never disagreed with anything you have ever said and dont intend to now.Im 44 and have probably setup 20 in my life.I did find the C8.25 to be the easiest/hardest to work on.Nice having the spanners on the carrier but difficult pulling a good pattern.The pics Ary posted suck,but it still looks like it is running high (up the face)on both drive/coast!

I would rather we find a topic that we disagree on, it makes it more fun.....

okay, here's a new topic, lets see what side of the fence you are on, and I'll battle you to death:

"anything that has been in dave nays rig is junk and will never work right"....

your move rcp.

 

[Carpenter]

Also, the gears have always been noisy, but they've gotten progressively worse as time goes on. I've also developed clunk when switching from turning left to turning right and so on. Also the gear whine is much more noticeable on coast and/or when turning right, however it is always present.

8.25s are noisy. Noone has ever been able to explain to me why, they just are. My old 8.25 was noisy on coast, both stock and when re-geared to 4.56. The "clunk" and louder noise when turning sounds like maybe you have a bad wheel bearing, maybe that's where the water got into the gear oil? Carrier bearings can generate the same noises when they go bad sometimes but the water in the oil makes me think maybe a bad wheel bearing. Jack the ass end up and see if there is any play out at the wheel, in/out and up/down.

 

[MrShoeBoy]

Experience and research will tell you, it is most important to center the pattern from topland the root (with proper backlash) which is what arys pattern shows, although it is hard to tell, as gears that have many miles on them will show a FAT pattern. Any gearhead who has done R&P jobs for a while knows to concentrate on centering the pattern from topland to root.

Call up Randy and ask him what he thinks, he'll tell you.

ary, please concentrate on measuring the BL and CB preload.

Ary, I would recomend what Beezil said. Chech the backlash and preload and then decide to go from there. Getting the perfect pattern sometimes just isnt possable. Call up Randys and see what they say. They have a GREAT technical help line and know what they are doing.

As for your ARB, well I have installed one but have no experiance with one breaking. Give ARB a call and see if they can help you.

Do you have any more pics of the gear pattern? Like maybe some that are not quite as close so we can see more of the pattern on the gear teeth and not have to squint as B put it.

AARON

 

[CRASH]

The thing about ARB's is that they have a large spring holding the dog clutch away from the case and spider gear assembly. For the unit to engage without air, the spring would have to be broken or weakened severly.

Hey, here's a wild one for you, was the T-case lever engaged by accident? Could the case have been "in between gears"? That could definately have casued some popping, and it often sounds like it's coming from the rear end.

CRASH

 

[Beezil]

I have a Dodge Durango, with a mere 37,000 miles on it.

the rear end has been noisy from day 1.

I replaced the gear oil at 25,000 miles with some nice syth 80-90....

still noisy....

but "noise" is so subjective, isn't it?

I'm hearing a slight hum or whirr when I decelerate, especially if I am towing a load....

no big deal, Its "white noise" to me.

 

[Safari Ary]

Hey, here's a wild one for you, was the T-case lever engaged by accident? Could the case have been "in between gears"? That could definately have casued some popping, and it often sounds like it's coming from the rear end.

CRASH

Andy, why would having the T-case engaged cause popping?? I don't have a front DS so it wouldn't be bind in the drivelines caused by 4wd on a dry, high-traction surface.

 

[JBrobeck]

I dont' think Andy is refering to driveline bind, but linkage out of adjustment, or the lever pulle up a slight bit, would enguage the front output shaft and with a little throttle/screwing around the selector sleeve/shift fork could very easily have slid back under acceleration or deceleration and made quite a racket, I am not saying this is what happened, just that is something to consider, Noise travels throughout the driveline and is sometimes hard to pinpoint, hell for all you know it could be a stretched chain slipping on the gears.

FWIW, I set up an 8.8 in my old Ranger, and never could get a "perfect pattern" as Beezil said, sometimes its unattainable, due to the cut. It ended up whining after about 1000 or so miles, I ended up pulling the cover and checking the backlash and pattern again, backlash had oppened up slightly, but pattern remained relatively the same, everything was still within spec. I put in some new fluid (I actually noticed a little moisture in the relatively new fluid that was in there) and drove on, after about 2500 more miles it, the sound lessened and to this date, the owner said its nothing more than a little wisper and only on deceleration now. Backlash would be the thing that I would be most concerned with in your situation.

 

[CRASH]

Yeah, that's what I'm saying, although the lack of a front shaft would alleviate teh binding, the t-case can make some lovely gear clashing sounds when it's "in between gears".

Get that air line hooked up and operate the differential lock with the cover off.

Aren't you getting a new rear axle soon anyway?

CRASH

 

[Safari Ary]

Aren't you getting a new rear axle soon anyway?

CRASH

Yes, Dana 60 There are a few reasons I'm trying to diagnose this though. First as a learning experience, second to make sure I get the Jeep home under it's own power so I can build and swap the 60 and third so I will know if anything is wrong with the ARB when I go to sell it.

Ary

 

[Beezil]

rubi, I was just trying to make sure we were having guys respond that had experience...too many web wrenchers these days, armed with "I heard' info.

to continue.....

I know the pics are crummy, but I can't see what you are looking at to make the determination.

I'm concentrating on topland to root.

are you focusing on heel to toe?

if so, that can happen with a loose backlash....

that's why i wanna know what his is. It doesn't seem wise to me to chase after the pattern by changing the pinion depth, without knowing that the backlash is in spec. If the backlash is not correct, its almost useless to pull a pattern. I asked ary to post a pic, under the wild assumption that it is.

A completely jacked pinion depth (caused by torn shims, failed/spun bearing for example) would be obvious no matter what the backlash is....

thats kinda what im going after here......

I haven't been doing R&P's as long as you, you old tired sled, but the ones I've done are all quiet, and operating perfectly (unless my friends don't have the heart to tell me otherwise) and I've never worried about heel to toe centering. I adjust R&P's at the tighter side of spec for backlash, and I concentrate on centering the pattern between root and topland. No rainbows or smilie faces on my teeth.....they're all tennesee's and hot dogs, and they don't howl or sing either.