- Location
- In a strange land
Re: Project Scope Creep: Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30
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Sandy Eggo.
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Project Scope Creep (alfred): Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30
- Thread starter Anak
- Start date
5.9longarmXJ
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Jacksonville, FL
Re: Project Scope Creep: Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30
Looks like backlash is about .015-.016 in the pictures. Do you plan on adjusting that? Looks like you need to move about .010 from the right to left? That should change backlash about .007 less, to make it right at the edge of spec .008.
Looks like backlash is about .015-.016 in the pictures. Do you plan on adjusting that? Looks like you need to move about .010 from the right to left? That should change backlash about .007 less, to make it right at the edge of spec .008.
5.9longarmXJ
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Jacksonville, FL
Re: Project Scope Creep: Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30
I am in Lemoore. Traveling, so not getting any wrenching done, but have a lot to do to mine, parts everywhere. Luckily axles are already done.
I am in Lemoore. Traveling, so not getting any wrenching done, but have a lot to do to mine, parts everywhere. Luckily axles are already done.
dan1977p
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Virginia Beach, VA
Re: Project Scope Creep: Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30
I'd bring it down to around 0.002. I still have those setup bearings
I won't be doing any more gearing on this axle. If the need arises, I'm putting a 44 up front so I'm tossing the setup stuff I have. They worked great again this week when I reset my gears on the 3.73+ carrier.
I'd bring it down to around 0.002. I still have those setup bearings
I won't be doing any more gearing on this axle. If the need arises, I'm putting a 44 up front so I'm tossing the setup stuff I have. They worked great again this week when I reset my gears on the 3.73+ carrier.
- Location
- In a strange land
Re: Project Scope Creep: Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30
Thank you Dan for those setup bearings and for the shims too. I did not realize it, but the parts kit I got only came with pinion shims. Your carrier shims were a huge help today.
I think I had the carrier in and out about six times today. It took me forever to finally get the backlash right, but I did manage to get a range of 0.002" to 0.005". At that point I tried running a pattern. I am using a pry bar for resistance, and not getting the pressure I need on one side, but these two pictures are my first run:
One (not really sure how to interpret):
Two (Fairly clear pattern):
It looks to be pretty much towards the toe on the one side, and I really don't know what to make of the other side. From what I could tell from the FSM if both sides are toward the toe then increase backlash. Not what I wanted, but I tried it and no, that is not the answer:
Still pretty much towards the toe. So I figure I need to move the pinion. I think in towards the ring gear (add to the shim stack on the inside bearing race). At that point I was out of daylight and out of energy.
I also found there are far more "acceptable" patterns than what is in the FSM. This page leaves me scratching my head: https://www.ringpinion.com/Content/Book/Reading-and-Adjusting-Ring-and-Pinion-Tooth-Patterns.pdf
Given that I am dealing with a used gear set was my first pattern good enough? Should I go back to that shim pack and leave the pinion be?
Thank you Dan for those setup bearings and for the shims too. I did not realize it, but the parts kit I got only came with pinion shims. Your carrier shims were a huge help today.
I think I had the carrier in and out about six times today. It took me forever to finally get the backlash right, but I did manage to get a range of 0.002" to 0.005". At that point I tried running a pattern. I am using a pry bar for resistance, and not getting the pressure I need on one side, but these two pictures are my first run:
One (not really sure how to interpret):
Two (Fairly clear pattern):
It looks to be pretty much towards the toe on the one side, and I really don't know what to make of the other side. From what I could tell from the FSM if both sides are toward the toe then increase backlash. Not what I wanted, but I tried it and no, that is not the answer:
Still pretty much towards the toe. So I figure I need to move the pinion. I think in towards the ring gear (add to the shim stack on the inside bearing race). At that point I was out of daylight and out of energy.
I also found there are far more "acceptable" patterns than what is in the FSM. This page leaves me scratching my head: https://www.ringpinion.com/Content/Book/Reading-and-Adjusting-Ring-and-Pinion-Tooth-Patterns.pdf
Given that I am dealing with a used gear set was my first pattern good enough? Should I go back to that shim pack and leave the pinion be?
dan1977p
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Virginia Beach, VA
Re: Project Scope Creep: Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30
I'd add a shim to the pinion. I'm a perfectionist, though. I did run my d30 with a 0.020 bl while I waited for the right carrier and had no issues and gears looked fine when I changed carriers.
I'd add a shim to the pinion. I'm a perfectionist, though. I did run my d30 with a 0.020 bl while I waited for the right carrier and had no issues and gears looked fine when I changed carriers.
- Location
- In a strange land
Re: Project Scope Creep: Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30
I added 0.010" to the shim stack behind the inner pinion bearing race and re-did the Pre-load numbers. With 200 lb/ft on the nut and no seal and no carrier I have 25-30 in/lb.
Then I reinstalled the carrier as it was. That yielded no backlash at all.
Took the carrier back out and added the one very thin shim I had removed from the seal housing side. I now have a bit more backlash than I would like. Backlash currently ranges from 0.003" to 0.007". Pre-load with the carrier installed is 35 in/lb.
Pattern is as follows:
And:
Still a bit heavy to the inside on the drive side.
Yet further forward on the pinion?
In order to do anything more with shims on the seal housing side I am going to have to order the ARB special shim pack. That is probably a two week lead time. I may just put it all back together and run it.
I added 0.010" to the shim stack behind the inner pinion bearing race and re-did the Pre-load numbers. With 200 lb/ft on the nut and no seal and no carrier I have 25-30 in/lb.
Then I reinstalled the carrier as it was. That yielded no backlash at all.
Took the carrier back out and added the one very thin shim I had removed from the seal housing side. I now have a bit more backlash than I would like. Backlash currently ranges from 0.003" to 0.007". Pre-load with the carrier installed is 35 in/lb.
Pattern is as follows:
And:
Still a bit heavy to the inside on the drive side.
Yet further forward on the pinion?
In order to do anything more with shims on the seal housing side I am going to have to order the ARB special shim pack. That is probably a two week lead time. I may just put it all back together and run it.
- Location
- In a strange land
Re: Project Scope Creep: Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30
Looking at gear pattern pictures I think I overshot the pinion depth.
I went from this:
To this:
Although both are heavy to the toe, the shape of the contact pattern has reversed and I am now putting all the pressure at the root of the ring gear, and I suppose therefore at the face of the pinion gear.
I need to take it back apart and try only 0.005" over the original shim stack behind the inner pinion race.
I am still not sure how to move things to the center of the ring gear.
Looking at gear pattern pictures I think I overshot the pinion depth.
I went from this:
To this:
Although both are heavy to the toe, the shape of the contact pattern has reversed and I am now putting all the pressure at the root of the ring gear, and I suppose therefore at the face of the pinion gear.
I need to take it back apart and try only 0.005" over the original shim stack behind the inner pinion race.
I am still not sure how to move things to the center of the ring gear.
- Location
- In a strange land
Re: Project Scope Creep: Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30
Well I took out 0.005" from the pinion and it was still heavy at the root, so I took out the other 0.005" and it is still heavy at the root. Dadgum.
I have added to the preload on the carrier. It appears that is what I should have been doing before.
Here is where it stands now:
And:
At least now they are both heavy to the toe as well.
Preloads are currently 15-20 in/lbs on the pinion only and 35 in/lbs with the carrier installed. Backlash is too low at 0.001" to 0.002" measured in three places.
Figure I am at least learning something. The slow way.
Well I took out 0.005" from the pinion and it was still heavy at the root, so I took out the other 0.005" and it is still heavy at the root. Dadgum.
I have added to the preload on the carrier. It appears that is what I should have been doing before.
Here is where it stands now:
And:
At least now they are both heavy to the toe as well.
Preloads are currently 15-20 in/lbs on the pinion only and 35 in/lbs with the carrier installed. Backlash is too low at 0.001" to 0.002" measured in three places.
Figure I am at least learning something. The slow way.
xcm
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Southern Oregon
Re: Project Scope Creep: Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30
Wrap a rag around the yoke, and wrap a knot in it, as your taking patterns... it makes your pattern show much clearer... it basically adds drag on the ring gear.
Also, dont worry about painting the entire ring gear in marking compound... do 4-5 teeth only. Any more, and it just makes a mess... I know for a fact you are not cleaning all that off between patterns... which means your ghost patterns cant be read....
Backlash should be between 006-010, with the main caps at least semi torqued down.
Also, i really cant see shit from your photos, take them like this:
Gonna be near LA anytime soon? got tons of ARB shim kits floating around.
Wrap a rag around the yoke, and wrap a knot in it, as your taking patterns... it makes your pattern show much clearer... it basically adds drag on the ring gear.
Also, dont worry about painting the entire ring gear in marking compound... do 4-5 teeth only. Any more, and it just makes a mess... I know for a fact you are not cleaning all that off between patterns... which means your ghost patterns cant be read....
Backlash should be between 006-010, with the main caps at least semi torqued down.
Also, i really cant see shit from your photos, take them like this:
Gonna be near LA anytime soon? got tons of ARB shim kits floating around.
WAZZUXJ
SoCal_XJ FB
- Location
- Aurora, CO
Re: Project Scope Creep: Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30
I did the math as well before posting it. I used 1/64th anyways because the average person does not work in thousands of an inch (I do as a mechanical engineer).
At least 1/64 would be something anyone who has looked at a ruler could imagine, a very, very, very small amount of movement. He was looking to see if he had excessive play and anything more than 1/64 (.015) would be excessive. If less then he would likely be close to the .006 to .010 spec.
I did the math as well before posting it. I used 1/64th anyways because the average person does not work in thousands of an inch (I do as a mechanical engineer).
At least 1/64 would be something anyone who has looked at a ruler could imagine, a very, very, very small amount of movement. He was looking to see if he had excessive play and anything more than 1/64 (.015) would be excessive. If less then he would likely be close to the .006 to .010 spec.
xcm
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Southern Oregon
Re: Project Scope Creep: Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30
The average person shouldnt be doing gears, if they cant handle measurements in decimal format! I grew up with a tape measure in my hand.... doesnt mean im gonna install gears that way!
Go ahead, and try to differntiate .076, and 0.78 in fractions! cause thats the differance between in-spec, and ****ed-spec.
This stuff is NOT for everyone! Nobodys gonna argue that.
The average person shouldnt be doing gears, if they cant handle measurements in decimal format! I grew up with a tape measure in my hand.... doesnt mean im gonna install gears that way!
Go ahead, and try to differntiate .076, and 0.78 in fractions! cause thats the differance between in-spec, and ****ed-spec.
This stuff is NOT for everyone! Nobodys gonna argue that.
- Location
- In a strange land
Re: Project Scope Creep: Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30
I don't know if these will serve any better, but this is where it stands now:
Coast:
Drive:
I moved the pinion halfway back and I still was getting a hard line at the bottom of the pattern. Then I moved it back to where I had started, and I still was getting a hard line. So I moved it back another 0.003". The above is the best I could get after playing around with carrier shims. I still have a bit of a hard line at the bottom, but it appears that there is pressure more in the center (height-wise) than just at the root. Efforts to move the pattern to the center length-wise have been futile.
Current numbers:
Preload on pinion only (no carrier, no seal) is 25-30 in/lbs.
Preload on pinion + carrier (no seal) is 30-35 in/lbs.
Backlash is 0.003" - 0.005" measured in three places.
My back is telling me I need to button this thing up and be done with it for a while.
I don't know if these will serve any better, but this is where it stands now:
Coast:
Drive:
I moved the pinion halfway back and I still was getting a hard line at the bottom of the pattern. Then I moved it back to where I had started, and I still was getting a hard line. So I moved it back another 0.003". The above is the best I could get after playing around with carrier shims. I still have a bit of a hard line at the bottom, but it appears that there is pressure more in the center (height-wise) than just at the root. Efforts to move the pattern to the center length-wise have been futile.
Current numbers:
Preload on pinion only (no carrier, no seal) is 25-30 in/lbs.
Preload on pinion + carrier (no seal) is 30-35 in/lbs.
Backlash is 0.003" - 0.005" measured in three places.
My back is telling me I need to button this thing up and be done with it for a while.
- Location
- San Diego
Re: Project Scope Creep: Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30
all that work and still an RD30.
what a shame.
all that work and still an RD30.
what a shame.
xcm
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Southern Oregon
Re: Project Scope Creep: Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30
I wouldnt run .003BL... I would add .005 to your RIGHT carrier shims, or swap .005 from left to right if its allready nice and tight on the carrier preload. That should add ~.003 BL, bringing you up into spec.
When youve had a carrier in and out multiple times, and are having troubles, clean stuff up, check for FOD between your main caps, like debris from your mallets, etc. .002 is a lot of variance in backlash...
I wouldnt run .003BL... I would add .005 to your RIGHT carrier shims, or swap .005 from left to right if its allready nice and tight on the carrier preload. That should add ~.003 BL, bringing you up into spec.
When youve had a carrier in and out multiple times, and are having troubles, clean stuff up, check for FOD between your main caps, like debris from your mallets, etc. .002 is a lot of variance in backlash...
WAZZUXJ
SoCal_XJ FB
- Location
- Aurora, CO
Re: Project Scope Creep: Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30
Are these new or used gears? I set up a set of used gears for a freind once, won't do it again. I could not get a good pattern reading since the gears were already worn.
Are these new or used gears? I set up a set of used gears for a freind once, won't do it again. I could not get a good pattern reading since the gears were already worn.
- Location
- In a strange land
Re: Project Scope Creep: Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30
These are used gears.
These are used gears.
- Location
- In a strange land
Re: Project Scope Creep: Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30
I just added 0.003" to the right side. I did not have 0.005". The ARB seal housing requires special shims. Have to work with what I have for now.
That changed the backlash to 0.005" - 0.006". The pattern is pretty much unchanged. Pinion preload (combined) still 30-35 in/lbs.
I just added 0.003" to the right side. I did not have 0.005". The ARB seal housing requires special shims. Have to work with what I have for now.
That changed the backlash to 0.005" - 0.006". The pattern is pretty much unchanged. Pinion preload (combined) still 30-35 in/lbs.
dan1977p
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Virginia Beach, VA
Re: Project Scope Creep: Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30
I forgot those were used gears. I would replace the setup bearings with the new ones and run it. Don't waste your time checking pinion preload after you put the carrier back in. You only need to check it while the carrier is out.
I forgot those were used gears. I would replace the setup bearings with the new ones and run it. Don't waste your time checking pinion preload after you put the carrier back in. You only need to check it while the carrier is out.
Re: Project Scope Creep: Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30
I have done a few gear swaps with used gears and was able to get a good pattern. I realize that may not be the case every time. I find that setup bearings are only good for ball park as the final bearings will often require slight changes. Summarizing some of the above, from the factory, the D30 from the factory had a variable thickness shim under the pinion head bearing that set the depth and a baffle under the race. The pinion yoke side was a standard baffle. Generally aftermarket method of adjusting pinion depth is to use a standard thickness shim under the pinion head bearing and make adjustments by adding or subtracting shims under the race. When you're close small adjustments can make a big difference. The good news is that its relatively easy to knock the race out and put new shims under it. The biggest issue is destroying or creasing the shims when you drive the race out. I would keep doing it at .002 intervals until its centered. There is no need to worry about the pinion preload with shims while you're determining depth. Set the shim pack last. While going through .002 intervals you only need to snug up the pinion so there is enough preload to get an accurate reading. Pinion preload with the carrier in is not telling as stated above, but you can measure it as a sanity check. If it goes up hugely there is probably an installation error.
I have done a few gear swaps with used gears and was able to get a good pattern. I realize that may not be the case every time. I find that setup bearings are only good for ball park as the final bearings will often require slight changes. Summarizing some of the above, from the factory, the D30 from the factory had a variable thickness shim under the pinion head bearing that set the depth and a baffle under the race. The pinion yoke side was a standard baffle. Generally aftermarket method of adjusting pinion depth is to use a standard thickness shim under the pinion head bearing and make adjustments by adding or subtracting shims under the race. When you're close small adjustments can make a big difference. The good news is that its relatively easy to knock the race out and put new shims under it. The biggest issue is destroying or creasing the shims when you drive the race out. I would keep doing it at .002 intervals until its centered. There is no need to worry about the pinion preload with shims while you're determining depth. Set the shim pack last. While going through .002 intervals you only need to snug up the pinion so there is enough preload to get an accurate reading. Pinion preload with the carrier in is not telling as stated above, but you can measure it as a sanity check. If it goes up hugely there is probably an installation error.
