lowered front shock mounts.. axle side

[cal]

So just to be clear... your saying that you would rather lift a tire than keep it on the ground simply because the coil isn't seated?

You've heard of tender coils right? There is very little difference between a coil unseating and a tender coil simply maintaining coil alignment under full droop.

I wouldn't mind a coil unseating 8+ inches (for an example), so long as it doesn't pop out. Again... there is no such thing as "too much travel" when it comes to this sport, as long as everything works in harmony.

I would totally agree with you on this, but then I think I would be wrong.

Once its unseated, there's not really enough weight there to give it much traction or steering power, but it can still get hung up in the rocks or catch a diff.

I'd rather lift a tire than have it dangle there uselessly.

 

[rockclimber]

So just to be clear... your saying that you would rather lift a tire than keep it on the ground simply because the coil isn't seated?

You've heard of tender coils right? There is very little difference between a coil unseating and a tender coil simply maintaining coil alignment under full droop.

I wouldn't mind a coil unseating 8+ inches (for an example), so long as it doesn't pop out. Again... there is no such thing as "too much travel" when it comes to this sport, as long as everything works in harmony.

I have seen rigs nearly go ass over tea-kettle because a coil was unseated and a minor weight shift caused the whole rig to flop down.

I would take a tire in the air over any coil unseating.

And your analogy with the tender coil is inaccurate
Tender coils have a rate. However low it may be it still does some work.
Also, take a look around at the guys running coilovers successfully. You won't see many with tender coils.

It is not that hard to setup a coil/shock combo that utilizes the full travel of the shock without unseating a coil.

 

[Boostwerks.com]

I would totally agree with you on this, but then I think I would be wrong.

Once its unseated, there's not really enough weight there to give it much traction or steering power, but it can still get hung up in the rocks or catch a diff.

I'd rather lift a tire than have it dangle there uselessly.

No worries, I still love you Cal. :smootch:

I understand your point. Each chassis and design definitely has an ideal sweet spot. Especially in the case of KOH type racing where you need to find that perfect balance. Hanging up on a rock can be the difference between a win or a lose so you need a certain amount of "planking".

However...

Again, in the case of a rig focused primarily on low speed crawling, COG will and always trump all. Considering the fact that a rig's un-sprung axle weight can sometimes reach damn near 1000lbs, keeping that tire as low as possible will have a major impact on the overall stability of the chassis.

Even with a coil unseated, and the tire off the ground, It is that "dangling" that helps keep the rig planted and right side up. Obviously a seated coil at all times is ideal, but given a choice I would rather maximize the shock length given the amount of room and up-travel available. In other words, I would personally choose to fit the longest possible shock I can while still maintaining adequate up travel. If this creates a situation where the coil unseats at full droop so be it. I wouldn't go out of my way to limit that travel simply so the coil remains seated. If the unseating is substantial however, a coil swap or tender coil would definitely be on my list. There are plenty of progressive wound springs on the market now that allow substantial travel. I would of course strap to prevent the shock from damage however.

 

[Johnnie Walker]

One of the reasons people flip their vehicles or roll down hills is because of unsprung weight, suspension unloading. Hence why people use limit straps. Cal knows what he is talking about.

 

[Boostwerks.com]

I have seen rigs nearly go ass over tea-kettle because a coil was unseated and a minor weight shift caused the whole rig to flop down.

I would take a tire in the air over any coil unseating.

And your analogy with the tender coil is inaccurate
Tender coils have a rate. However low it may be it still does some work.
Also, take a look around at the guys running coilovers successfully. You won't see many with tender coils.

It is not that hard to setup a coil/shock combo that utilizes the full travel of the shock without unseating a coil.

So in other words, your saying that the roll would have been prevented had the the coil been seated? I would be willing to bet the roll would have happened either way. It's easy to blame the coil and not the change in overall COG.

It boggles my mind that you think a tender coil has any substantial support.

What about leafs? Does the suspension suddenly stop working once the leaf has dropped past it's static arch?

 

[Boostwerks.com]

One of the reasons people flip their vehicles or roll down hills is because of unsprung weight, suspension unloading. Hence why people use limit straps. Cal knows what he is talking about.

Limit straps are designed to prevent your shocks from damage. Obviously they can be used for other purposes however.

Cal would run 37s on his 30. Thus he knows nothing. :dunce: (j/k)

 

[cal]

One of the reasons people flip their vehicles or roll down hills is because of unsprung weight, suspension unloading. Hence why people use limit straps. Cal knows what he is talking about.

Boostwerks knows what he's talking about as well. I don't agree with him on this point, but he is making educated statements.

In the end, we're both right, and we're both wrong. I happen to think I'm more right and less wrong, and I'm sure he feels the same way about his opinion.

 

[xcm]

Since this is now a unseated coil/not working suspension thread....

that actually is the very definition of the suspension NOT working.

Care to elaborate on what a 'not working' suspension is? Not trying to be a dick, troll, or dicktroll.

 

[rockclimber]

Limit straps are designed to prevent your shocks from damage. Obviously they can be used for other purposes however.

by definition, limit straps do nothing more than limit suspension travel. the purpose of that is limiting can vary.

also limiting the axle to prevent the shock from bottoming out is often unnecessary.

So in other words, your saying that the roll would have been prevented had the the coil been seated? I would be willing to bet the roll would have happened either way. It's easy to blame the coil and not the change in overall COG.

its easy to armchair quarterback these things. I know what I have experienced and what I have seen. I used to have coils unseat, the instability that provides in some situations is far more of a detriment than any travel gains. especially when it is easy enough to setup a rig without that problem. having a properly tuned shock will affect these things as well. there is no 2 situations that are ever the same and no 2 setups that are the same, I know that I will never have to deal with the drawbacks of having unseated coils and I cannot for the life of me think of any situation where I would want them unseated.

It boggles my mind that you think a tender coil has any substantial support.

substantial is a highly relative and subjective term. they do something how much depends on a few factors. certainly more than nothing but air between the coil and perch. and once again, they are a lot less common than you think.

What about leafs? Does the suspension suddenly stop working once the leaf has dropped past it's static arch?

leaf springs are different since they can't really ever be separated from the vehicle the way a coil can. unless you're running revolvers or some other wonky shit its not a factor that comes into play.

Since this is now a unseated coil/not working suspension thread....

Care to elaborate on what a 'not working' suspension is? Not trying to be a dick, troll, or dicktroll.

once the coil is unseated it can be doing no work to the vehicle. its job is to hold the vehicle up over the axle. it cannot do any work if it is unseated. there isn't much more to it than that.

 

[Boostwerks.com]

once the coil is unseated it can be doing no work to the vehicle. its job is to hold the vehicle up over the axle. it cannot do any work if it is unseated. there isn't much more to it than that.

By that logic, how is lifting a tire supporting the vehicle? A suspension at full droop (by definition) is doing no work supporting the vehicle in the first place. All it's doing is keeping the COG as low as possible, thus allowing the rest of the chassis to do it's job.

The only time it comes into play is the dynamic weight transfer once that unloaded tire begins to see any real load. My point being that a few inches of unseating doesn't equate to much stability loss as the amount of load on that tire was near nothing to begin with.

I've simply seen far to many unseating coil'd rigs that simply work well to say that it's a "typical noob" fashion statement. Like everything however, there is always a happy medium. Obviously you can't expect a 16" travel shock and a 10" static coil to work well.

Boostwerks knows what he's talking about as well. I don't agree with him on this point, but he is making educated statements.

In the end, we're both right, and we're both wrong. I happen to think I'm more right and less wrong, and I'm sure he feels the same way about his opinion.

Agreed. It all boils down to opinion. I've just noticed recently that there seems to be a mentality on the interweb that if you unseat a coil your rig is bound to roll. Obviously in reality this just isn't the case. Anything can become unstable depending on the situation. That's really all I'm getting at.

 

[xcm]

 

[rockclimber]

lol.

 

[Boostwerks.com]

Bump stops FTW.

 

[831_xj]

nicccce!