GM 5.3/4L60E/Klune/Stak 300

[xjbubba]

OK, OK, It has been done, and I am being a big baby......

I like the dual horns:yelclap:

 

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

Back to my project, I am going to use a TJ fuel tank but have decided to install a GM fuel pump for simplicity and the fact that pressure and volume should certainly be correct. It turns out the GM pump assembly looks very similar to the TJ pump assembly but has a smaller diameter.

TJ Tank:

Disassembled TJ pump:

GM pump assembly:

I plan to make an adapter that will use the rubber gasket from the TJ pump and fit into the tank hole just like the TJ pump. Then, the GM pump assembly with rubber gasket will slip into the middle of the adapter and be clamped down with a custom ring and machine screws threaded into the adapter. The adapter will be aluminum as it is easily machined and available.

Beginning of adapter:

Jeff

 

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

OK, I was finally able slip the engine in place.

There are numerous issues. First, it's way too tall! I adjusted the thing around a bit and found that with the tranny pan even with the bottom of the frame rails, the front of the oil pan sat about 4" below the flat under part of the front frame horns. That compares to the 4.0L straight six sitting about 2" below this portion of frame. Also, the back of the oil pan looks like it sits quite a bit below the tranny pan/rear frame bottom.

Sitting in this position the top of the motor is quite a bit above the fenders too.

In the rear of the engine compartment, there appears to be quite a bit of room because the heads hit the firwall first. The indent for the straight six ends up looking roomy because the engine can't go back any further. However, the front of the engine seems to be way too far forward!

Sitting in this position, the best exhaust manifold route seems to be straight down in the middle next to the block using block hugger headers. If they make a tight bend at the exhaust port I think they'll clear the frame horns.

With this layout of accessories, it looks like the power steering pump will be in the way of the planned steering gear.

So, any ideas how to overcome these issues? I'm going to have to study what it takes to install the car intake manifold to lower the top of the engine. Hopefully I can come up with a plan that will lower the alternator a bit too. If anybody has experience in this matter, please speak up! Jeff

 

[Root Moose]

Check out ls1tech.com for info on the car intake manifold and F-body oil pans.

Dunno about the accesories. F-body and/or Y-body will likely help.

It's been about a year since I've read up on it but they will reduce height a lot (IIRC).

 

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

Ok, I believe I've done enough research to have a clue. First order of business is to install some sort of intake manifold that has a lower profile than the truck one. From what I gather, I've got four choices. Early LS1, Late LS1 (commonly called LS6 because they first came on LS6 Corvettes, but were eventually (2001 I believe) run on the Camaro's and Firebird's too), LS2 and aftermarket. Both style LS1's use a three bolt throttle body which is a bolt on for my 03 Silverado 5.3 drive by wire 75mm unit. This is a fairly small Throttle body as later model cars and trucks use 90mm throttle bodies. Swapping to one of those would be extra cost and effort that I don't think I'm interested in doing though. The LS2 style intake manifold uses a different 4 bolt mounting surface for the throttle body. As far as flow, the LS6 unit is the big winner. It is VERY desired by everybody too as prices show. $300 is a good deal. I can pick up an early LS1 intake manifold for more like $30!! The truck manifold has longer runners and is good for torque and up to 5400 rpm or so. Both the truck and LS6 intakes were better performers than the LS1 or LS2 intakes. However, I'm just trying to fit this thing under the hood and above the axle and it will be used off road mainly, so I really don't think the LS6 manifold would be worth the expense. I'm leaning towards purchasing a much more affordable LS1 intake. What do you all think?

As for actually installing the LS1 or LS6 intake on my 5.3, I’ve read a few articles and threads on the subject. Here are some links to decent information:

http://www.ls1truck.com/forums/front-page-news/12719-ls6-intake-swap.html

http://www.thedetailzone.com/LS6 Intake.htm

http://www.performancetrucks.net/forums/showthread.php?t=357424&highlight=LS1+intake+swap

http://www.performancetrucks.net/forums/showthread.php?t=359987&page=1&pp=10

http://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=889353&highlight=intake+swap

http://www2.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?p=8148515

In addition to fitting the low profile manifold in place, one also has to be sure the fuel rails and injectors will fit and connect to the wiring harness. Apparently there are differences between what’s out there. I would like to reuse the 5.3 stuff because I have it, I think it will fit the LS1 manifold as shown in one of the LS6 intake swap articles above, and the injectors will plug into my harness with no extra work. The crossover tube between the fuel rails will stick up kind of funny looking without modifications though as it is designed to pass over the truck intake manifold.

I’m not sure I can reuse this in an LS1 intake manifold, but I think I can.
With the low profile intake manifolds, throttle body clearance with other devices will be an issue. There are two methods used to overcome the issue. Truck engines with no hood clearance issues can keep most of their accessories and only make room for the throttle body. This is usually done by making changes to the water pump and an idler pulley location as shown in the links above. The water pump can be modified in several ways or it can be swapped for a late model, ’07 I believe, unit or a car water pump can be used. However, the car accessories all fit closer to the front of the engine and they use electric fans instead of the engine driven fan on the trucks. If one is keeping the truck setup but using a car water pump, they can space the water pump pulley out some or remove the car pulley and install the truck pulley on the car water pump. However, if one also wants to lower the alternator from the truck position, there are two options. One would be to use a custom bracket to replace the stock unit that mounts the alternator and power steering pump lower. Wayne Powell did just that putting a 5.3 into a BMW.

http://1geezersgarage.com/

Be sure to check out his Youtube series. The other method involves swapping all of the car accessories onto the 5.3. If going this route there is the Camaro/Firebird method or the Corvette method. The pics below are rough drawings of the basic belt routing for the engines we are dealing with.

Since I like the idea of the alternator sitting up high and out of the elements yet I need it lower than the truck routing, I think the Corvette routing would be the way to go in the MJ. Also, the Corvette power steering pump uses a remote reservoir which should better clear the WJ steering gear and work out well with the planned hydro assist setup. I think the truck alternator should bolt up to the Corvette accessory bracket. The bracket itself is $65 from nookandtranny, so that’s not too bad.

http://nookandtranny.com/Merchant2/...uct_Code=BRKT-9704-Y-MAIN&Category_Code=LS1-Y

The cost of this stuff can add up quickly, but I hope to find some deals here and there to hopefully save a little. I compared the GTO and Corvette harmonic balancer to the truck unit and it looks like the truck unit sits a good 2” further away from the block! The pics below try to show that although the GTO pic is pretty hard to see.

Gaining these two inches will help fit a cooling fan too. Speaking of a fan, if I go this route I’ll have to go with an electric fan because the car water pump does not have the ability to mount an engine driven fan.

Moving on to the air conditioning compressor, I’ve determined that although the stock GM unit would fit, between the frame rails and the engine mount, its attaching hoses wouldn’t! Also, I think there may be a difference between the truck compressor and the car compressor and I know the engine mounting bracket IS different. So although I had it in the back of my mind to get air working on this truck, I don’t think I’m going to be using the GM pump. I did set the old Sanden pump next to the GM pump for comparison and they are very similar in size with the Sanden hoses exiting out the back which I believe would clear the frame rail…especially if I mounted the Sanden tucked a little closer to the block.

Wayne Powell and friends have come up with a cool bracket system they are selling which mounts a Sanden A/C pump in the upper passengers side if I wanted to go that route, but I was thinking this might work just as well to mount a YORK OBA up there instead!

http://www.kwikperf.com/lsx_ac.html

I think the heater core hoses from the water pump would be able to pass just under the York compressor.

In an effort learn a bit about my setup and get ready to do something, I tore the front of the engine apart!

This should be a link to all the pics in the engine folder:

http://s193.photobucket.com/albums/z94/fourliter/New MJ engine 03 five point three/

Jeff

 

[Root Moose]

Very cool info Jeff.

If it were me, with the obstacles and swapping parts you are going to have to work with, just get the cheap manifold on the engine for now.

After it is sorted if you feel you need to get those extra few dozen HP swapping the manifold can be a weekend project instead of one of many things bogging the megaproject.

 

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

I've done a little more research and have more to share. I found out that the Camaro/Firebird/LS2 GTO accessories all run about 3/4" further away from the block than the Corvette accessories do. However, the water pump for these rigs sticks out in the center quite a bit AND it is also used on the Corvette LS1/6 (C5 '97-'04) which makes it look like it really sticks out there. They use the same pump because the pulley is a wide flat bell looking thing where the belt runs near the outer edge on the Camaro etc. rigs and near the inner edge on the Corvette rigs. This is shown in the two following pics:

'05 GTO balancer/water pump pulley

'04 C5 LS6 Corvette balancer/water pump pulley

I also found that a Camaro etc. harmonic balancer is cheaper and easier to find as I found several for less than $50. Since they both use the same pump I had considered spacing the Corvette alternator bracket away from the block a bit to align it with the Camaro balancer, but decided to go a different route.

The LS2 Corvette (C6 '05-'08) uses a water pump where the pulley ends just beyond the belt.

I was also told that I cannot mix and match LS1/6 parts with LS2 parts although they look very similar. I'm not sure I buy that, but I don't have the parts to play with. Also, I read a few things on the internet where people have used the LS2 water pump on LS1/6 engines. In any case, I was searching around last night and found a New LS2 harmonic balancer for $75 "buy it now" with an option for "make an offer". I offered $60 and got it, so with $11 shipping, that's my start. I also found some NEW LS2 crate engine water pump take off's for $100 plus shipping that I might move on as that's the best deal I've seen on those. Finally I also found an LS2 alternator bracket for $70 plus shipping, so I may move on that too. However, when I add this stuff up I'm looking at around $250 already!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I still need other parts too such as a power steering pump and pulley, tensioner, and idler.

For an informational note, I was also told that Corvette AND Camaro etc. power steering pumps are all remote reservoir. The Camaro reservoir sits right on top of the pump though where the Corvette reservoir is acually remotely mounted. I also read one post where it was suggested that the pumps are the same, but the pulleys are different, but I cannot confirm this. Later, Jeff

 

[Goatman]

The rig is going to be really sweet when you get it finished, Jeff.

However, I think I'll stick with my stroker motor plan.

 

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

More news from the bracket department. I slung a tape measure across the mounting bosses on the truck alternator bracket and measure 5.5", then I headed to my friends place who has the C5 LS6 corvette and compared alternators and mounts and came up with 6" between centers! The alternators look very similar, but the truck unit will NOT just bolt into the LS2 alternator bracket. I really want to use cheaper/more plentiful (and I have one) truck alternators on this engine, so the way I see it, I can build something custom or customize an LS2 bracket which I can have in my hands for about $65. I'm leaning towards customizing an LS2 bracket, but this will probably involve cutting one set of mounting ears off, moving them closer to the other set and having them welded back onto the bracket. This bracket is cast aluminum too, so I don't know how that's going to work out. Suggestions?

BTW, nookandtranny has added a page dedicated to showing the difference in certain parts between the various LS engines. http://www.nookandtranny.com/ls1.htm Jeff

 

[Root Moose]

You can take the Al to a pro to get TIG'ed...

May be "easier"/cheaper to fab something youself in mild steel though.

 

[Mr.OverKill]

You can take the Al to a pro to get TIG'ed...

May be "easier"/cheaper to fab something youself in mild steel though.

X2, i had to for mine, with my block being an LS1 boat motor ( mercruser ) it did not have the same attach points ( bolt holes ) as a truck or car block does

 

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

As for the last post, the block is NOT an LS1, but it may be a LT1? In any case, I finally got the LS2 Vette harmonic balancer.

It looks like the thing rides 1.5" closer to the block.

Jeff

 

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

I also finally found an XJ fuel tank sending unit. I plan to mount this to a GM Silverado pump installed in a TJ tank.

I cleaned it up quite a bit and it now reads smoothly throughout it's range. I also had a TJ sending unit and comparing them, the XJ unit has more travel. I ended up swapping the TJ and XJ float assemblies and then putting some custom bends in the TJ float arm till overall travel of the float matched the overall travel of the TJ sending unit with the TJ float arm and TJ float.

The pic below shows the XJ unit on the left and the TJ unit on the right. The floats have been swapped and the TJ float unit has been bent.

Here's the differences on a sheet of paper:

Here's the XJ unit with the modified TJ float assy reading FULL.

Jeff

 

[Root Moose]

Can't wait to see the next test fit with the short accessory drive.

 

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

I picked up a $50 2000 Corvette power steering pump.

It's small, but supposedly powerful and all set for a remote reservoir. Apparently it's the same pump from '97 up with a different pulley between the LS1/LS6 C5 Vette and the LS2/7 C6 Vette. The pulley was broken off this pump, but hopefully the pump works well. It looks fine and seems to turn straight. I'm not sure if I should purchase a stock LS2 pulley or look for a smaller diameter aftermarket pulley so the pump will turn faster. Anybody got any thoughts on that? I'm not sure, but I think the Vetter pulley is larger than the Camaro pulley. Jeff

 

[Root Moose]

Find the cheapest stock pulley you can find as long as the size of the pulley is not interfereing with engine placement.

Save the fine tuning stuff like pump speed for after the first time it fires up. It may be fine with a stock pulley. JY pull could be close to zero dollars if you get other stuff at the same time.

$0.02

 

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

I pulled the damaged truck power steering pump pulley and the damaged Corvette LS2 power steering pump pulley and found the Vette pump to have a noticeably smaller diameter shaft than the truck pump shaft.

I'm not sure if the LS2 pump shaft is different from the LS1 Vette pump shaft or if it is different than the LS1 Camaro/Firebird shaft. In any case, finding a smaller aftermarket pulley has been difficult so, I suppose I'll end up getting a stock LS2 replacement pulley. BTW, it took a LOT of force to pull the pulley off the LS2 pump! Jeff

 

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

I also got a 2000 Camaro LS1 intake manifold and set it on the 5.3. Fits good with a slight bending of the front steam pipe nipple.

I found out that the truck MAP sensor is different as it sits on top of the truck manifold where the LS1 MAP sensor fits in the back of the manifold. I don't know if the wiring will plug in or not. I also found out that the truck manifold bolts are all too short. I do beleive I can reuse the truck fuel rails and injectors, but haven't tested that out for sure yet. I'll probably want to cut and weld the crossover tube to lower it a bit though. Hooking up all the hoses etc is going to be interesting since they are all different than the truck stuff. Jeff

 

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

Back to the fuel pump and tank, I finished my adapter ring to mate a $35 '02 GM 2500 pump without evap to a TJ fuel tank.

I started with a cheap '02 GM 2500 fuel pump assembly without evap

Here it is next to the TJ pump assembly

I placed it in the TJ tank and noticed it was too tall even fully compressed.

So, I took it apart, cut some off the three alignment tubes and used a brake flare tool to re-flare the ends (which keeps part of the assembly in place.)

Two of the tubes press on springs in the lower part of the assembly. The third tube is actually the fuel return port and has no spring.

I slipped it back in the tank and verified it fit ok.

I compressed the springs a bit and verified that the top fit ok.

I then played with the XJ fuel level sending unit and eventually found a way to bolt it to the GM assembly and verified that the float was at the bottom of the tank when it was at the end of travel and at the top of the tank during opposite travel.

Then I took my aluminum ring to the high school shop and played on the lathe. Once the GM pump fit snugly in place with a recess just deep enough for a flat plate to compress the rubber gasket, I made a flat plate and drilled 8 holes in the right spots. I threaded the holes in the adapter ring and installed long stainless steel 10-32 machine screws with thread locker from the bottom. I cut the outer part of the ring to mimic the TJ pump assembly. Once all the cutting was done, I put it all together. From the center it goes like this: GM pump assembly/GM gasket/adapter ring/flat plate installed on top compressing the GM gasket/TJ gasket/TJ tank/TJ pump assembly tightening ring.

One final pic of the finished assembly:

Jeff

 

[Root Moose]

Dig it.

You get this b!tch running with the hood closed and no holes or extreme cutting and you'll be my hero for life.