EPA is outlawing Painting and paint stripping

[Ecomike]

Not sure how many of you have lived near someone who paints cars in their garage, but it sucks real bad. When I'm kicking it at the manor, all I want to smell is fresh cut grass, not the neighbors paint booth!

The problem is that this rule is not designed to reduce nuisance odors, which is what your complaint is, or would be, at least in part. A paint booth does not capture the odor producing compounds, only the pigment overspray, and the proposed rule says it is the highly toxic metal pigments it is targeting and only lists one organic volatile compound it is targeting, namely methylene chloride.

It basically says they will require a plan to be prepared and filed with the EPA before you can use methylene chloride containing paint strippers (so that eventually means a permit to buy it based on proof of the sumbmitted plan!) , so that forces us to use highly flammable, more dangerous solvents in the paint strippers such as acetone (flash point is "0" F ) or methyl alcohol which are not in the proposed rule.

If a neighbor is painting next door to you, most state rules require a minimum distance of something like 150 Ft between that painting area and a neighboring residence. They also allow the state, county or city to issue the painting person or operation an NOV, Notice Of Violation for simply creating a nuisance (odor or overspray) on your property, said NOV can lead to large fines. So the rules to stop that already exist. Even if a paint shop has permit to paint next door to you, they can still be fined for creating a nuisance dust or odor at neighboring properties.

Paint booths were originally designed and required for fire hazard safety, as an unventilated, enclosed painting operation can quickly reach the LEL (Lower Explosive Limit) of the solvents used in the paint, then all it takes is one spark to blow the place up.

 

[darjevon]

Look, just paint in your garages.

There's plenty of people spewing R12 out into the atmosphere when that's technically illegal too.

Of course, the irony of this is that there are innumerable auto shops that would be more than happy to recover their refrigerant for free, sometimes even pay THEM for the r12. Although in the case of refrigerant, I do feel that seeing as people are so unwilling or lacking in knowledge that they will keep filling up a system continually instead of just FIXING THE BLOODY LEAK and if the chemicals they use to do this are harmful to the atmosphere, the stuff ABSOLUTELY should not be available the the average idiot. I have been there, not knowing anything about the systems and not wanting to be ripped off by a$$holes at local shops and consequently trying to do ghetto work on my own system (gimme a break it was my family car and we had no money, I was 12, and the AC worked for the whole Memphis summer) but really I just wish I'd gone ahead and done the reading, rented the proper tools, and done the job right. However, in the case of paint, people do not "fill up their car with paint" every two weeks, paint jobs last years and are not done that often, and there are other areas where some legislation would actually be much more prudent, such as heavy fines for dumping rather than taking used motor oil to free recycling centers when they are available. And how about requiring engine rebuilds or replacement when visible blue smoke appears, and offering waivers to those who cannot afford to do so? Allowing engines in horrible conditions to continue running round is a LOT worse than people painting their own cars in their driveways, pollution-wise.

Just my .02, joe

 

[Ecomike]

I don't see anywhere on there that it states it is "outlawing" painting. It only says that the selected areas would have to comply with regulations and safe practices, and that they must comply with proper training techniques of applying coatings.

From what i read it makes sense to me and paint shops should have to comply.

You make a valid point, but if the new regulation requires one to prepare and file a plan with the EPA to buy and use MeCl (Methylene Chloride) based strippers, everyone will just switch to highly flammable alternative solvent formulas for paint stipping that use acetone for instance.

On the painting issue, if the reg requires them to buy $10,000 worth of equipment just to paint one bumper in their driveway isn't that essentially outlawing small operations and individuals from ever painting anything again. Oh, and don't forget you need to pay for training and certification as a certified painter first as well!

 

[1985xjlaredo]

Re: Republican EPA to outlaw car painting...

Blah Blah Blah 60% of all murders are unsolved, so about 99% of all automotive painting crimes will be unsolved. They pass shit like this all the time and the public never hears of it. If no one makes a fuss and my neighbor doesn't here of the rule and doesn't know to turns me in, then I doubt any pig driving by my closed garge is going to notice me painting my XJ.
One question though, what about the guy that is going to spray my house?

 

[Ecomike]

Re: Republican EPA to outlaw car painting...

Blah Blah Blah 60% of all murders are unsolved, so about 99% of all automotive painting crimes will be unsolved. They pass shit like this all the time and the public never hears of it. If no one makes a fuss and my neighbor doesn't here of the rule and doesn't know to turns me in, then I doubt any pig driving by my closed garge is going to notice me painting my XJ.
One question though, what about the guy that is going to spray my house?

I was wondering how they are going to strip the old paint with out burning down the house before they try to paint it.

I am also trying to figure out how one of my large customers is going to fit 50 ft or 100 ft of paint hose and a 2 gallon paint pot, or a their airless Graco Bulldog paint rig into that little enclosed paint gun cleaner to clean up their gun and equipment?:banghead::banghead::banghead:

 

[96Yeepster]

First anyone who belives a Republican will reduce
Government anything must belive that Barney is a real dinosour and that Iraq had WMD's... they are just that damned stupid...
It goes against everything Republican, so they need to actually research fundamental party tatics.

Secondly, the EPA will not give a flying bats crap about the guy that works on and paints his own car, on his own property in his own garage. If you do not use HLVP guns now, your so far behind it won't matter. They are far superior to the suction it is rediculous.

Third the EPA is not 'outlawing' painting. They are however going after paid paint shops to have them use less harmful sprays and cleaners. They are also wanting to ensure that each 'professional' paint shop is propperly equipped, and that the people spraying actually know how to do it propperly using propper techniques. That just makes sense.

The EPA will however severly attack any business that even has one of these suction type guns even on the premisis.

The EPA will however go after anyone if you dare use unmodified modern type laquer based paints.

 

[Blaine B.]

Iraq did have WMD's, they used chemical weapons to a large extent before.

 

[Ecomike]

If you do not use HLVP guns now, your so far behind it won't matter. They are far superior to the suction it is rediculous.

You are making the same mistake EPA has made in writing this rule and thinking that car and body paint refinishing is all there is out there in the way of paint equipment and paint applications. This is not the case.

HVLP can also use the paint suction method (1) so it is not different from the old style, convential suction equipment in that respect, and it uses more air volume, not less, than the convential air rigs. The proposed EPA rule is over promoting HVLP like it is a cure all, which it is not. HVLP is not suitable for heavy high solids industrial coatings. There is also high pressure airless equipment to be considered, brush, roller, and electrostatic.

Also their requirement for the use an enclosed paint gun cleaner seems to based on the assumption that all painting is done with suction equipment, which is not true. An enclosed paint gun cleaner may be the BACT for suction cup gun cleaning but what about pressure fed paint systems? I would like too see someone shove a Graco Bulldog airless paint rig, 100 ft of airless paint hose and the airless paint gun with a high solids catalyzed coal tar epoxy in it, into an enclosed paint gun cleaner to clean out of the system. With pressure fed paint equipment there is no need for an enclosed paint gun cleaner. Just turn off the air to the paint gun and then pump solvent through from the the paint pot, through the hose and gun, and capture the solvent for later distilation recovery and reuse.

It is obvious, at least to me, that who ever drafted this rule has limited paint and paint equipment experience, limited to auto refinishing, and they have tried to write a rule to cover everyone based on that limited experience.

They are however going after paid paint shops to have them use less harmful sprays and cleaners. They are also wanting to ensure that each 'professional' paint shop is properly equipped, and that the people spraying actually know how to do it properly using proper techniques. That just makes sense.

To the best of my knowledge, 3/4ths of the targeted paint ingredients they listed in the proposed new reg (lead, cadmium, chromium....) are no longer even used in the paints and coatings that are currently available, making the rule a waisted effort and an unnessesary burden on the local goverments who will be required to enforce it and on the businesses that do painting.

The EPA will however severly attack any business that even has one of these suction type guns even on the premisis.

Actually they will attack those who do not have the required, listed equipment in the reg, on hand.

(1) http://www.lionindustries.co.uk/hvlp.html

" An HVLP spray gun uses air to atomise the paint, so it will generally obtain a slightly better finish than basic airless; however the transfer efficiency will not be as good, resulting in more overspray, and the application rate will much slower than airless. In painting and decorating, where a mirror finish is not normally required, HVLP is only used for spraying small volumes of paint, or for spraying multi-colour (fleck) paints with a very large nozzle/needle set up. If airless can be used, it is always preferable to HVLP which is more complicated to set up and adjust, and can only spray relatively thin materials.

The paint supply is either mounted on the HVLP spray gun, or from a paint hose supplied under pressure from a remote pressure tank or low pressure pump. A gun mounted paint container can be under the gun in front of the trigger, when it is usually of 1 litre capacity and called a Suction Cup (sometimes called a Syphon Cup), or above the gun as a Gravity Cup that is usually smaller, about 700 ml. Some painters prefer a suction cup underneath the gun whilst others prefer a gravity arrangement, each type providing a different balance and view of the work. The gravity gun is gaining in popularity because of the claimed improved view. A gun supplied with paint from a hose has the best view and is much lighter than a gun with a full paint cup, but it requires more paint in the system.

Some advanced designs of HVLP guns will generate enough suction to avoid having to pressure the paint cup, but these guns are not practical for the heavier materials used in painting and decorating and heavier industrial finishes."

 

[Cowboydoc]

First anyone who belives a Republican will reduce
Government anything must belive that Barney is a real dinosour and that Iraq had WMD's... they are just that damned stupid...



Curiously...Ever been to Iraq? Know what you are speaking of before you open your hole.

 

[Bored400]

Speaking of paranoid and the universal solvent, H2O, otherwise more properly known as Di-Hydrogen Monoxide, you better read this first if you think it is safe!

http://www.dhmo.org/

LOL:laugh3:

WTF? I read thru the FAQ...I'm thoroughly confused now!

 

[1985xjlaredo]

WTF? I read thru the FAQ...I'm thoroughly confused now!

Agreed WTF is this stuff and where is it located? I seem to be fine as I am and I dont think that this is going to make me do anything different

 

[Ecomike]

Agreed WTF is this stuff and where is it located? I seem to be fine as I am and I dont think that this is going to make me do anything different

For those who are not chemists, DHMO, DiHydrogen Monoxide, DiHydrogen means 2 hydrogen atoms, MonoOxide means one (mono) oxygen atom, so you have H2O, common name is WATER! :doh:

Very dangerous stuff, even deadly under the right circumstances, expeically at elevated temperatures, and if you try and breath it in the liquid state.

When my brother was doing cancer research at MD Anderson in the 1970's he came home one day and announced that MD Anderson Medical center had discovered the most potent carcinogen known to man, namely O2, oxygen, it is a di-radical, a double free radical, one of the few known in nature. At 100% concentration it is very unstable and a potent carcinogen.

Also, pound for pound, table salt is one of the most deadly compounds on the planet. It has one of the lowest LD50s (Leathal dose for 50% of the test population) of all known compounds.

Compare the LD-50 of table salt (sodium chloride) to liquid mercury.

 

[96Yeepster]

First anyone who belives a Republican will reduce
Government anything must belive that Barney is a real dinosour and that Iraq had WMD's... they are just that damned stupid...



Curiously...Ever been to Iraq? Know what you are speaking of before you open your hole.

Back off asswipe. I am a vetran.
I also know MANY people that have been there and back and call the WMD arguement that went on complete bull shit. They have found NOTHING of conseqence or usefullness.

Maybe the poeple that beleived the WMD arguement should go back and listen to C. Rice' speeches before the U.N., where she NEVER spoke under oath.

So yes I DO know what I am talking about. It is just a shame that the American people were so gulible after 9/11 to believe anything anyone would say against Iraq because we were all so pissed off at the Arab population in general that we forgot to ask questions. I quess that is also why under the 9/11 program the House and Senate passed 'The Patriot Act' which is the most rights stripping legislature ever passed. I could go on and on... trust me...

It is such a shame that this country has sunken so low under good 'ol dubbua that most the people actually beleive the BS he shovels...

 

[98stocker]

Back off asswipe. I am a vetran.
I also know MANY people that have been there and back and call the WMD arguement that went on complete bull shit. They have found NOTHING of conseqence or usefullness.

Maybe the poeple that beleived the WMD arguement should go back and listen to C. Rice' speeches before the U.N., where she NEVER spoke under oath.

So yes I DO know what I am talking about. It is just a shame that the American people were so gulible after 9/11 to believe anything anyone would say against Iraq because we were all so pissed off at the Arab population in general that we forgot to ask questions. I quess that is also why under the 9/11 program the House and Senate passed 'The Patriot Act' which is the most rights stripping legislature ever passed. I could go on and on... trust me...

It is such a shame that this country has sunken so low under good 'ol dubbua that most the people actually beleive the BS he shovels...

You've been sucking at the teet of the liberal network news too long. Now I certainly am no apologist for GWB. Government and spending has grown so much under his watch it is ridiculous. The constitution limited the powers of government intentionally, and we have now little by little given government far more than is needed or was intended. A couple more John Roberts on the bench, and we might see the pendulum start to swing back.

 

[96Yeepster]

You've been sucking at the teet of the liberal network news too long. Now I certainly am no apologist for GWB. Government and spending has grown so much under his watch it is ridiculous. The constitution limited the powers of government intentionally, and we have now little by little given government far more than is needed or was intended. A couple more John Roberts on the bench, and we might see the pendulum start to swing back.

Liberal?
How about using your own mind and looking at all evidence on a subject then deciding?
I tend to look at all provided info from many sources on a subject, then make up my own mind. I do not suck a 'liberal news teet', I actually use my brain and decern things for myself. If I look at and read say 15 reports/stories that have been written and be verified with factual information that speak out against something. Guess what? I will take that info as being true where and if I cannot find a factual supported counter arguement on the same point.

That is also why I have a sticker that proudly proclaims "I support our Troops - (then under it) "I do not support the President" Note the use of the word 'the' as he is in no way "my" president. He does not support what I protected when I proudly served to defend this country.
I am also hard pressed to find any service members that I have spoken to in the National Guard Units that are local to me that actually support, or beleive anything that he has said for the past 6 years reguarding Iraq.

 

[Trail-Axe]

So I guess this thread is going to turn into another Broke Back Mountain discussion about politics. On the left you will have a bunch of screaming woman, and on the right you will have a bunch of screaming woman pissing right back.

Both sides will have their super hero "VETRAN" who will try to persuade everyone to her side. Some of us are veterans, and some of us are even combat veterans. Good for us, bad for our enemies.

Then you will have friends whom have known and liked each other for many years going at it. It’s stupid. We all have our own opinions about the war, our president, and any future president. They are not going to change here.

Then when you think you have heard it all, some solider of fiction carpet commando type will tell ya a bunch of BS about how he saw this, or heard that…. BLA, BLA, BLA… And the real sad thing is, some dip dunk out there will actually believe some of it, and then use that as his source for his next “Bring Your Own Troll” party.

 

[Ecomike]

So am I the only one here that is going to read this 126 page document, and then write and submit comments to the EPA as to the the Good, Bad and Ugly, of their current version of this poor attempt of theirs to do their job?

If any one has any useful suggestions they want me to consider adding to my submital, please speak up and detail them now while there is time to get the EPA author's attention and get this thing changed before it becomes codified as an EPA regulation. Now is the time to do constructive work on changing it, not after it has become a final rule or regulation.:rattle:

 

[Cowboydoc]

Back off asswipe. I am a vetran.
I also know MANY people that have been there and back and call the WMD arguement that went on complete bull shit. They have found NOTHING of conseqence or usefullness.

Maybe the poeple that beleived the WMD arguement should go back and listen to C. Rice' speeches before the U.N., where she NEVER spoke under oath.

So yes I DO know what I am talking about. It is just a shame that the American people were so gulible after 9/11 to believe anything anyone would say against Iraq because we were all so pissed off at the Arab population in general that we forgot to ask questions. I quess that is also why under the 9/11 program the House and Senate passed 'The Patriot Act' which is the most rights stripping legislature ever passed. I could go on and on... trust me...

It is such a shame that this country has sunken so low under good 'ol dubbua that most the people actually beleive the BS he shovels...

Slow down sparky...just telling ya what I saw on the first 2 trips over there...I guess we were all having mass halucinations? And its veteran, not vetran

 

[Bouncy]

Guys arguing about Iraq...SERIOUSLY....Go argue else where. Take it to PMs

Ecomike....I read some of it and also told some friends and family about it last night. The short answer on writing the Government about it is...most wont unless they can be lazy, click on a link and have it all done for them.

the EPA has gained far to much control over the years. This and many other EPA rules/laws need to be changed...I agree with you that much.

 

[Cowboydoc]

Guys arguing about Iraq...SERIOUSLY....Go argue else where. Take it to PMs

Ecomike....I read some of it and also told some friends and family about it last night. The short answer on writing the Government about it is...most wont unless they can be lazy, click on a link and have it all done for them.

the EPA has gained far to much control over the years. This and many other EPA rules/laws need to be changed...I agree with you that much.

Good point. Sorry for the hijack.