B.Lee Offroad 3-link?

[TRCM]

I'm amused my people trying to draw distinctions between the terms axle wrap, wheel hop, and unloading. I'm sure there's some brofessors on here who will chime in with their scientific explanation of the difference, but to me it's pretty much all the same. And let me clarify, the wheel hop/unloading I experience happens every time I generate wheel spin, whether I'm on an incline or not. It happens in deep snow and soft sand, even if pointed downhill.
And I'll also point out that my video shows my brake lights on pretty much the entire time. Feathering the brake does nothing to stop the hop- I feather the brakes to keep my LSDs engaged. Once it starts, the only way to stop it is to fully lift off the gas. This is pretty frustrating, because it happens when you most need to keep your momentum- going uphill, or getting stuck in snow or sand.

You still don't get it... level, uphill, downhill, wet, dry, rocks, sand....none of it matters if you don't have enough spring pressure to keep the wheel planted, and enough shock to stop the spring from cycling.

I was not talking about feathering the brakes, but since you don't want an explanation, I'll stop here. I will say feathering your brakes to get an lsd in a front axle to work is part of your problem.

Good luck....sounds like the only way you'll be happy is with a totally different suspension, but then again, you'll likely have something to complain about then, as none of them are perfect, they all have their drawbacks.

And try putting a traction device in your axles that doesn't require you to use your brakes to get it to work.

 

[paddlernate]

"On my old ramcharger, I could induce wheel hop by spinning the tires, but I could also, on the same surface, induce then stop wheel hop by power braking....cuz the torque/suspension/traction factors were constant. When I let off the brakes, the traction changed cuz the truck could move, so the wheel hop would come back if I didn't let off some. Dry conditions were the worst.

I can usually do the same thing with my cherokee. Power braking spins the tires, but spinning the tires without using the brakes usually gives me wheel hop."


Sure sounded like you were talking about feathering the brakes to me. And to clarify, the hop occurs whether I'm feathering the brakes or not, like when I'm trying to keep my speed up in sand or snow. So are you going to say its because I don't have a front locker that it occurs? People need a front locker to make radius arms work? Or maybe it's because my Jeep is green, or my CB antenna is creating a weight imbalance. Whatever it is, it couldn't be suspension geometry. If your point is that stiffer shocks and springs might help the problem, you've made it.

And you're right, I probably won't be happy until I have a different suspension, and I'm speaking here to let other people who might be looking at radius arms of their inherent downsides. You're being pretty insistent for someone who has never had radius arms and has no skin in this game. I acknowledge that there might be things that could be done to lessen the problem, but I would have preferred to know about these things before I bought the kit. "Long arm" kits are so prolific on the market I think it lulls people into a sense of perfection, when in fact radius arms are far from perfect.

 

[TRCM]

"On my old ramcharger, I could induce wheel hop by spinning the tires, but I could also, on the same surface, induce then stop wheel hop by power braking....cuz the torque/suspension/traction factors were constant. When I let off the brakes, the traction changed cuz the truck could move, so the wheel hop would come back if I didn't let off some. Dry conditions were the worst.

I can usually do the same thing with my cherokee. Power braking spins the tires, but spinning the tires without using the brakes usually gives me wheel hop."


Sure sounded like you were talking about feathering the brakes to me. And to clarify, the hop occurs whether I'm feathering the brakes or not, like when I'm trying to keep my speed up in sand or snow. So are you going to say its because I don't have a front locker that it occurs? People need a front locker to make radius arms work? Or maybe it's because my Jeep is green, or my CB antenna is creating a weight imbalance. Whatever it is, it couldn't be suspension geometry. If your point is that stiffer shocks and springs might help the problem, you've made it.

And you're right, I probably won't be happy until I have a different suspension, and I'm speaking here to let other people who might be looking at radius arms of their inherent downsides. You're being pretty insistent for someone who has never had radius arms and has no skin in this game. I acknowledge that there might be things that could be done to lessen the problem, but I would have preferred to know about these things before I bought the kit. "Long arm" kits are so prolific on the market I think it lulls people into a sense of perfection, when in fact radius arms are far from perfect.

Well, you got me........sorry, I was wrong.....I guess since in both of the vehicles I mentioned in the examples in bold print above, the brake pedal was TO THE FLOOR, that I guess I was indeed feathering the brakes. Sorry, my mistake. I was also talking about the rear axles on them.

And no, I am not saying you have to have a locker to make a radius arm setup work...I AM saying using the brakes to get you lsd to work is defeating your purpose by slowing done wheel speed, which increases traction to overcome your current spring rate which lets your wheel hop get worse.

And again, no, I have no vested interest in, nor do I run a radius arm setup. If you had read & comprehended my previous posts, you'd see I am leaning towards a 3 link now instead. I also plan on a rear coil spring conversion....got any complaints on those I should know about ?

Yes, they are prolific because for 99% of the people who buy them, they work well, and that is partly because most people don't push them to the point of their limitations. Biggest complaint I've seen to this point, is the joints/bushings wearing out & getting noisy.

I'm still not sure you have either, but you do have other problems that need to get addressed.

Using the brakes to get an lsd to engage also sets up a power cycle from one side to the other, which can give the same affect as wheel hop, with the same results. One tire gets traction and stops and the other side suddenly has full power, so it jumps, then when it contacts the ground again, it stops and full power goes to the other side...and so on.....and on video, it will look just like wheel hop, and can be hard to determine which it is. When one side has power, the lsd can't hold power there long enough to move the vehicle, so it violently cycles side to side trying to find the least traction. At least with a locker, it can't cycle side to side.

I could make my ramcharger do the same thing your jeep does, and it had leaf springs up front and a lsd too. I no longer run lsd's. I got stuck once in a steep ditch cuz the front axle was doing the same thing yours does. The pass side was hard in and had good traction for the most part, and the drivers side was in the air basically, barely touching the ground. When I got on it, the pass side tire dug in, and the lsd sent power to the drivers side til it hit the ground, then it bounced up and forced the pass side in, then the cycling started....till it stopped. The problem wasn't the springs as much as it was the lsd & springs combined (worn shocks probably didn't make it better either). I had to walk a mile home & get the wife & my other ramcharger to pull it out. The power cycling resulted in a busted stub shaft and hub, which is why I couldn't get out...no 4wd anymore.

Personally, I think if you got rid of the lsd and put in a locker, you'd be fine.

 

[paddlernate]

So if it's the LSDs, how do you explain the other jeeps in the NW Chapter who have the same issue? They have lockers, and so does the other dude, "zachandandy" who posted a video earlier in this same thread that shows the same issue. Let me guess, springs and shocks, right?

 

[VAhasnoWAVES]

I'm amused my people trying to draw distinctions between the terms axle wrap, wheel hop, and unloading. I'm sure there's some brofessors on here who will chime in with their scientific explanation of the difference, but to me it's pretty much all the same. And let me clarify, the wheel hop/unloading I experience happens every time I generate wheel spin, whether I'm on an incline or not. It happens in deep snow and soft sand, even if pointed downhill.

here is the thing though... its not the same thing. even tire pressure plays a role in the suspension. there are a ton of forces being generated by and acting on the system as a whole.

everyone i know with the TNT setup is happy with it. while there is no magical spring/shock combo as you said, there are enough resources out there that can get you in the ball park of a good setup for your intended use. with a little work, getting a given suspension 80% dialed in can be done relatively easy. that last 20%? well, that 20% is where races are won... and itll take a seasoned driver to notice the difference in that last 20%.

i think its been said, i would look into more rebound dampening and potentially a stiffer spring rate, but start with dampening. RoyalXJ asked but you never answered.... what springs and shocks are you running?

 

[paddlernate]

I specifically didn't answer this question because this is where I expect a vendor or two to speak up and make a recommendation. I didn't want to make it too easy on them by giving them a starting point to bump up from because, frankly, I think they either don't have a clue or don't want to admit publicly it takes $300 worth of springs and $400 worth of Bilsteins to make radius arms work. Nothing but crickets on this thread from the vendors.
I'll throw out a challenge here in fact, because I'm sick of the speculative debate. I want one vendor, I'm talking to you Serious, IRO, TNT, Rubicon- post up one single video of one of your radius arms kits being flogged without wheel hop. I'm mean a moving picture video, showing wheel spin for more than a few seconds, and reveal the spring/ shock combo it required to make that happen. Zero wheel hop. You owe this to your patrons. Let's end the debate. If one pops up, I'll happily eat my words and donate $250 to .

 

[Serious Offroad]

You need to keep in mind that vendors aren't allowed to sell their products anywhere other than the Vendor Forum on . If you want specific product info you'll need to contact the vendors directly.

 

[VAhasnoWAVES]

I specifically didn't answer this question because this is where I expect a vendor or two to speak up and make a recommendation. I didn't want to make it too easy on them by giving them a starting point to bump up from because, frankly, I think they either don't have a clue or don't want to admit publicly it takes $300 worth of springs and $400 worth of Bilsteins to make radius arms work. Nothing but crickets on this thread from the vendors.
I'll throw out a challenge here in fact, because I'm sick of the speculative debate. I want one vendor, I'm talking to you Serious, IRO, TNT, Rubicon- post up one single video of one of your radius arms kits being flogged without wheel hop. I'm mean a moving picture video, showing wheel spin for more than a few seconds, and reveal the spring/ shock combo it required to make that happen. Zero wheel hop. You owe this to your patrons. Let's end the debate. If one pops up, I'll happily eat my words and donate $250 to .

So... You want someone to make a blind suggestion instead of using what you are currently running as a baseline, and trying to find the reason you are unhappy with the performance?

Sounds backwards to me. Your obviously at wits end with radius arms. But there is no need to attack the vendors be a use your experience isn't up to par.

 

[831_xj]

300 springs $400 shocks? we drive an xjs not a jk... but ya radius arms unload.. Build a 3 link and stop bitchin somebody else didn't make it for you lol

I run radius and I know it's characteristics.. you make it sound like a deathwish

 

[Johnnie Walker]

300 springs $400 shocks? we drive an xjs not a jk... but ya radius arms unload.. Build a 3 link and stop bitchin somebody else didn't make it for you lol

I run radius and I know it's characteristics.. you make it sound like a deathwish

Given enough travel, any setup has the ability to unload.
Keeping enough weight on the front end helps oppose this.
Hence, why people use a "suck-down" winch, or a strap of sorts in the middle of the axle to keep it "together.
Limit straps and proper wheeling technique go a long way also.

But, I agree in the fact of; if you DIY and it fails, the only one you can blame is yourself.

 

[zachandandy]

Radius arms are popular because of ease of packaging period. If I were starting fresh, it would be a custom 3 link all the way. If you are going to do any serious wheeling in an xj, you need frame stiffeners. This means welding and you now have a stronger surface in which to mount new suspension brackets. The stock passenger side upper is prone to failure anyway, so cut it off and weld on a legitimate upper link mount. No more 10mm bolts, axle mounted bushings, etc. The idea of bolt on and anything more than moderate wheeling don't belong together.