Aussie in D30, snow/ice first time review...

[RichP]

I tried it on the way home on bare pavement. Under braking, if you keep a steady pressure on the pedal (i.e. don't move your foot), and slip the tranny into neutral - based on what you two are saying, I should feel the vehicle start to slow down faster i.e. the braking force should increase with the same amount of pressure on the pedal. I did not notice any difference what so ever. And putting it back in drive before I came to a stop didn't change anything either - it didn't lurch forward. So if you two (and others reading) want to row your shifter everytime you stop, go right ahead, but I won't be wasting the effort.

You can see the same effect in 4lo, in one of our YJ's with the chrysler 999, engine idleing and 4lo the drivetrain will over power the brakes at idle unless they are really well adjusted. With that said there is a difference at speed, the engine does do alot of braking once your foot is off the gas so you get a two fold braking effect, engine and brakes. At slower speeds the engine idle can detract from the brakes ability to stop the vehicle. This is more noticable in a stick than an auto on the engine braking side, less on an auto tranny.

As far as a traction device, in the rear it will drive both wheels when power is applied and force the jeep straight ahead no matter which way the wheels are turned, pull your foot off the pedal and it will snap in the direction you have the wheels turned, apply gas and it will go straight again, interesting effect. Front locker in snow is interesting, I did not drive it long enough to get comfortable with it but the guy who owns it seems to do OK and he plows driveways.

 

[1996cc]

icy, snowy, slippery roads. the type of roads that can be found in late fall, winter or early spring conditions.

IF you are correct, the principle should be the same everywhere and should help more on bare pavement because on ice it is so easy to lock up the brakes.

Also, with an auto tranny, the torque converter will unlock and allow the tranny to "freewheel" a little more as rpms decrease. I don't know enough about automatics to delve into that issue anymore, but I thought I'd mention it since it does come into play here.

All in all, I'm done. Stated my opinions, you have yours. Have a nice day.

 

[Sniggs]

So...

These threads haven't mentioned anything about those of us that use fulltime 4wd in our 242s. What is/are the effects? Would it be wiser for me to go with a LS in the rear and a selectable (air or electric?) in the front and NEVER select while in Fulltime 4wd?

Thanks

 

[Flip94ta]

The last time I drove my mail truck on ice I discovered the benefits of shifting to neutral. You have to remember that we are talking about very low speeds, like below 10 mph. There is no compression braking.

The same torque that allows you to roll down the road at 7 mph with your foot off either pedal will cause the rear tires to push the vehicle on ice.

My mail truck weighs about 12,000lbs and has 400 cubic inch diesel and a 50/50 weight distribution. Like my XJ it will idle you down the road around 7mph. On ice, using the same brake pressure as I would on dry pavement the front wheels will lock, even with abs because of the very low speed and the rear tires will push the locked up fronts. You either have to push the brake pedal to the floor and make the rear brakes control the torque or shift to neutral which makes creeping along in traffic on a side slope much easier.

If the vehicle is in a 4 lock mode the push should not be a factor since the the front brakes would be assisting the rears. I do agree that its harder to lock a tire in 4wd.

 

[bcmaxx]

yup in b.c. canada, lots of winter snow and ice (realworld practice) if you are not turning or on a curve, the best thing to do is throw er in neutral and brake and steer. (open front diff)

 

[boise49ers]

I'd like to throw in something too. If you have lower gears and come off a Rock fall you can slow the vehicle down faster in Neutral. Why 96 you might ask ? Because you are not pushing thru your breaks. Kind of the same principle, just a slowed down version. Not trying to be an ass , but can I ask your age ? Can I make a guess with out pissing you off again.
20eace: Am I close ?

 

[1996cc]

Not trying to be an ass , but can I ask your age ? Can I make a guess with out pissing you off again.
20eace: Am I close ?

I will be 30 on November 21st. Probably older than most here it seems. (I hate saying 30, damn I feel old). And you?

And I have never been "pissed off", angry or upset, just stating my opinion.

I do agree about being in low range, neutral is a benefit because the gears can overcome the brakes (but that is not the original issue we were discussing). But driving on the road (obviously in high range), be it bare pavement, snow, ice, sleet, hail, water, etc... I don't agree that it is advantageous in the real world.

 

[boomhauer]

That would be two people. Can't we have a discussion without it being "arguing"?

And I have driven in just about any ice/snow condition available in the northwest in many types of vehicles. From front wheel drives with ABS to 2 wheel drive pickups without ABS, manual trannies to autos, part time 4x4's, full time 4x4's. I just said I've never braked in neutral, but having said that, I was incorrect. In the manual tranny vehicles I've driven (and currently own), I guess I ALWAYS brake in neutral, because the clutch is depressed, didn't think about that before. And I've never noticed a difference, other than killing the motor if I don't depress the clutch.

Sorry 1996cc, that was not supposed to come off as arguing (it was a light friendly get your head out 'twak') lol. I was just matching your 'I call BS' intensity. But if you call BS, just explain why at the same time so then people know it is a debate and not a hate.:wave1:

 

[boomhauer]

The more time i spend with the front locked the more i like it. I have found the biggest affect on control comes when (this is on icy/snowy city roads of which i am driving but may apply in other scenarios. The front locker safety/behaviour on public roads is what i'm concerned with. I'm doing this to pass on for others to try and then chime in on as to what they have found or what their own take on things are. This has been great so far! We have already managed to educate a few wheelers on ice tactics. Thanks for your help Beakie and others. 1996cc, good job on challenging as it helps dig down deeper and helps get clarification. OK back to it...) letting off the gas and even more so getting back on the gas. There's a good corner on Higgins ave here in the 'peg that is a good practice curve. It's icy, and if you lose control you won't hit or hurt anything. Well i took the curve at (for you US folk) 35mph, with the front locked, foot steady on the gas and rounded the bend like it was summer. (For the record 4.56's and 33x10.50R15 BFG MT's) I'll make a long story short;
If you choose to coast through an icy curve, slide into neutral prior to the curve, in other words while your rig is straight. Coasting through in gear may cause your XJ to lose control depending on the amount of gear you have. This is because of the engine braking characteristics and what gears you have etc. Play it safe and slow down before the curve shift to neutral and neutral coast the curve and stay off the brake.
If you drive through the curve, again slow down before entering the curve and maintain constant throttle, if you have to, go to neutral rather than letting off the gas in the curve because of the twitch. Do not accelerate while in the curve, which brings me to my next point. The most, how can i put this...predictable unpredictability is getting back on the gas. The Jeep twitches pretty good, as long as you are aware of this, it's not really a problem. You will learn quick when to gas and when not to.
I do not claim to be an expert, although i am considered a 'Professional' driver by classification as are any TT, Bus, Police, Fire, Medic etc and 20+ years of driving in winter conditions for 6 months out of every one of those years. This is just MY experience with an Aussie locked front of a 231/AW4 combo on ice, snow and slick as whale sh!t in an ice floe city streets.
Alot of this is common winter driving knowledge that alot of you good folk already know. Hope this helps someone though!

 

[boise49ers]

I will be 30 on November 21st. Probably older than most here it seems. (I hate saying 30, damn I feel old). And you?

And I have never been "pissed off", angry or upset, just stating my opinion.

I do agree about being in low range, neutral is a benefit because the gears can overcome the brakes (but that is not the original issue we were discussing). But driving on the road (obviously in high range), be it bare pavement, snow, ice, sleet, hail, water, etc... I don't agree that it is advantageous in the real world.

48, you will get to where you can guess age usually be tones and wording. I was wrong this time. Read it wrong I guess. To tell you truth I have always used my gears for slowing and never went to neutral to stop in bad weather. We have some bad winters once in awhile up here, but I like using gears to slow me down in that crap. I don't like the lock up and slide feeling. Lockers are great in it though once you get to know how they effect your driving.

 

[The_Pitbull]

Whats it like with just a rear lunchbox locker on icy/snowy roads. And do they react unexpectedly if you hit an ice patch on a highway in 2wd.

 

[1996cc]

48, you will get to where you can guess age usually be tones and wording. I was wrong this time. Read it wrong I guess. To tell you truth I have always used my gears for slowing and never went to neutral to stop in bad weather. We have some bad winters once in awhile up here, but I like using gears to slow me down in that crap. I don't like the lock up and slide feeling. Lockers are great in it though once you get to know how they effect your driving.

I do find it funny that when you thought I was 20ish, you disagree with me, but when you discover my real age, you admit that you drive similar to me.

 

[mecompco]

So...

These threads haven't mentioned anything about those of us that use fulltime 4wd in our 242s. What is/are the effects? Would it be wiser for me to go with a LS in the rear and a selectable (air or electric?) in the front and NEVER select while in Fulltime 4wd?

Thanks

I plan to have a full Detroit in the rear, and an ARB in the front--on the street, the rear will be locked and the front open--with FT engaged I think it will be a very manageable combination. When in PT offroad, the front may be locked at will for maximum traction.

 

[beakie]

48, you will get to where you can guess age usually be tones and wording. I was wrong this time. Read it wrong I guess. To tell you truth I have always used my gears for slowing and never went to neutral to stop in bad weather. We have some bad winters once in awhile up here, but I like using gears to slow me down in that crap. I don't like the lock up and slide feeling. Lockers are great in it though once you get to know how they effect your driving.

Here again I wonder as to the effectiveness of using your gearing to slow you down.
A few reasons why I feel this way
1. I use my brakes for braking, the tranny is for transferring the torque to the wheels, replacing my brakes because I use them all the time doesn't cost as much as replacing a tranny that I used as a braking helper all the time.
2. If you've ever driven a motorcycle you'll learn you have to rev the engine a bit when downshifting so when the clutch engages the tire doesn't lockup because its moving at a faster speed than the engine, which is moving the gears is. Its usually just a little 'chirp' but if its bad you can lock up and lose control.
3. With the last point, if you use your gears to help yourself to slow down (lets say a manual) than you have to give it a bit of gas so the engine will be rotating the gears fast enough so when they engage the tires don't lockup. Auto's should be ok, but I have been in the back seat of a Crown Vic when the driver downshifted (going down a hill) because a sign said "use lower gear" unfortunately the road had a few inches of snow, the engine wasn't moving fast enough for the lower gear and the back tires locked up on the snow... we fishtailed and ended up in the ditch.

Not sure about licensing rules anywhere else, but I know up here in Ontario you have to take a certified driving school course before you can be fully licensed (also helps get license sooner and lowers insurance) If you ask anyone that got their license in the last 12 years (since rule was applied) they'll tell you about the 'neutral braking technique' as its taught here. Not to say its gospel, but it works for us.

 

[boise49ers]

I do find it funny that when you thought I was 20ish, you disagree with me, but when you discover my real age, you admit that you drive similar to me.

I didn't disagree with you. I stated that when I come off falls I use nuetral. Then agreed that I use gears in snow and ice. I think there are to many different opinions and they are getting mixed. I work in a Secondary School and I will quarentee you this. If want an agrument the youth will always have one for you though. I have a 23, a 19 and an 18 years old so I'm not speaking from lack of experiance. I was the same exact way. We get to that pre 20 age and we do test the people. Any honest person will admit that.
:wave:

 

[pwa2]

Yeh ok. I've seen guys with detroit lockers in the front mudbogging. The xj in front of mine was all over the sides of the trail. I was unlocked and spun my tires more but had alot more control. Whenever he turned his wheel his xj just kept going forward in the mud, getting him stuck worse then he ever could have unlocked. And this was slow speeds...

For my money, it's a selectable locker.

 

[zthang43]

Kind of related to the braking in neutral topic: I had a Datsun 260Z for a number of years with larger tires in the back, and not real good rear brakes. (The rear brakes on those cars are pretty puny.) With the 4.3 V6 conversion I did to it, the car was impossible to bring to a complete stop in ice while it was in gear. The front wheels would lock up, and the back wheels would keep pushing the car at an idle. Slam it into neutral and it would stop immediately. Put it back into drive while stopped on ice, and it would start to push the front wheels again.

I bring this up because an auto XJ can act similarly if it's in 2wd in ice; just something to keep in mind.

 

[bigolexj]

If you guys really (REALLY) want to experience hard braking, throw it in reverse while braking hard. AWESOME....

 

[boise49ers]

Yeh ok. I've seen guys with detroit lockers in the front mudbogging. The xj in front of mine was all over the sides of the trail. I was unlocked and spun my tires more but had alot more control. Whenever he turned his wheel his xj just kept going forward in the mud, getting him stuck worse then he ever could have unlocked. And this was slow speeds...

For my money, it's a selectable locker.

Or you could have the disconnect like me and unlock it and spin circles with your locker. It'll do it in the snow too.

 

[NCCherokee]

I am surprised that with the crappy brakes of the XJ's, specially with bigger tires nun of you non believers have ever popped the tranny in neutral coming down a steep rock face or hill for better braking when on the trail. I do this all the time and the braking is much better and controlled. This is the same effect as what boomhauer and beakie are trying to explain.

I've never tried the whole braking in neutral thing, but i'll give it a shot this winter to compare. In the deep stuff i've always driven in 4lo and i always drop it into first gear and 4 lo. It bites hard but NEVER breaks loose. and i feel i have more control.

In regards to your comment, i dont know about you, but whenever i'm coming down a steep face or hill, i'm in 4lo first gear. Try it. Go down a face in 4lo, first gear, and you can crawl down (if your gearing is good). Do the same thing, but put it in neutral, and see what is easier to brake/control.

Thats why i use this same reasoning when "engine braking" in the snow. But like i said, i'll give it a shot.

oh, and someone else said that engine braking doesnt work at slow speeds around 10mph, but it in 4lo and first, it will bite like hell at this speed. Again, i usually drive in 4lo in the deep stuff so that i can control my speed better.