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All Aluminum Bumper???!!!!???

robs said:
Hahaha... JohnyK you so smart! Enlighten us.. just cause you want something to be true, it don't make it true. You clearly are out of your league here. I'm a metallurgist that's been in the heat treating field since 1982. Think I've got the background.

Way cool! Me, I'm just an engineering student with a good handful of practical experience.

Can you recommend some good references on heat treatment and metallurgy that won't break me? The fact that you know more than I do doesn't surprise me (given your bona fides) but I'd like to see to trying to correct that...

5-90
 
Okay, I am wrong and you are technically correct. Too long out of school ... :confused1 I still believe that you can build an aluminum bumper that will never see enough cycles to fatigue it, practically speaking. A winch shouldn't be putting shock loads into your bumper anyway (if used correctly), and the shock load from a proper recovery strap shouldn't be that high either. You would definitely need thicker than 1/4" for the structural members, although I think that would be enough for the bumper face with proper design.

As for every rock digging in and grabbing it, I raised that point with someone who was making a flat aluminum belly skid. He countered that lots of competition rigs are using aluminum skids, and now that he's been using one, he's had no such problems himself (and this guy wheels hard). So, I'm not sure how important that is. Besides, I don't consider dragging my bumper over every rock I see to be fun. It's much more enjoyable when the bumper clears the rocks the majority of the time.
 
djblade311 said:
I vote for a bumper made out of paper-mache

forget that...cardboard is the way to go.

DSC00010.JPG


:roll:
 
Aluminum is soft. It will deform. Competition buggies don't weigh 4,000 lbs (my XJ in trail gear with 1/2 tank is 4200 lb w/o people in it).

AR400 is a wear alloy that hits' 40ish HRC... you can run 300M up to low 50s HRC (i.e. pushing 300ksi). But with strength comes loss of ductility. For Jeep stuff... hot roll is good enough... except for stuff like diff skids where you would want something hard so stuff don't dig into it...

Keep an eye on ebay... score an ASM Metals handbook DESKTOP edition (none there now).... you can get them for a song and they're excellent references. There's also ASM metals handbooks that go into much more detail than the desktop edition, but they're broke up by categories so you gotta get the one you need. Google is your friend too.
 
robs said:
Aluminum is soft. It will deform. Competition buggies don't weigh 4,000 lbs (my XJ in trail gear with 1/2 tank is 4200 lb w/o people in it).

AR400 is a wear alloy that hits' 40ish HRC... you can run 300M up to low 50s HRC (i.e. pushing 300ksi). But with strength comes loss of ductility. For Jeep stuff... hot roll is good enough... except for stuff like diff skids where you would want something hard so stuff don't dig into it...

Keep an eye on ebay... score an ASM Metals handbook DESKTOP edition (none there now).... you can get them for a song and they're excellent references. There's also ASM metals handbooks that go into much more detail than the desktop edition, but they're broke up by categories so you gotta get the one you need. Google is your friend too.
I was just curious about the 300M. I've found some shafts made out of it.
 
robs said:
Aluminum is soft. It will deform. Competition buggies don't weigh 4,000 lbs (my XJ in trail gear with 1/2 tank is 4200 lb w/o people in it).

AR400 is a wear alloy that hits' 40ish HRC... you can run 300M up to low 50s HRC (i.e. pushing 300ksi). But with strength comes loss of ductility. For Jeep stuff... hot roll is good enough... except for stuff like diff skids where you would want something hard so stuff don't dig into it...

Keep an eye on ebay... score an ASM Metals handbook DESKTOP edition (none there now).... you can get them for a song and they're excellent references. There's also ASM metals handbooks that go into much more detail than the desktop edition, but they're broke up by categories so you gotta get the one you need. Google is your friend too.

Cool - thanks! I'm all to familiar with Google, but I've also found that it helps if you know what you're looking for in the first place...

I'm assuming you mean that the handbooks are broken up by class/alloy? (i.e. Ferrous alloys, aluminum alloys, copper alloys, and like that?)

5-90
 
300M is good stuff... just a slightly modified 4340 and very clean (VAR or equivalent).. would make for a very nice axle shaft or outter shaft...

ASM is in the business of selling books. So there's a truckload of them...

The new 10th editions are green... and very pricy... they are segregated by material types (as you mention) and also by processing (heat treatment, metal finishing, etc) and by discipline (failure analysis, NDT, Mat selection, etc).

Score a desktop version from ebay.. they usually go for $20ish.... you can also get 8th editions (blue) and 9th editions (red) for a song.. but you're in the category deal again.
 
Plenty of cars use aluminum frames off the top of my head the Prowler , I think all sport bikes (except Ducattis) use it too . There are even class IV hitch tongues made of aluminum...not to mention Boeing 747s which take more abuse than any of our XJs. If its well built it will last, just engineer the heck out of it and I suspect you will be fine. Many OEMs use or have used aluminum for bumpers and brackets behind the plastic facia. I recall that some special package Buick Grand Nationals had optional aluminum bumpers as did some GM wagons to reduce over all weight.
 
Phantom said:
There are even class IV hitch tongues made of aluminum...

Hmmm, now that you mention it, I've got one of those ... rated for 12,000 lb load with 1,200 lb tongue weight. What the heck does a metallurgist know about design, anyway.:kissyou:
 
Well, I'm still undecided, I think I will probably use it because it's there and it's free!! It's not thin, it's a full 1/4" thick and I think if I design it properly and add lots of gussets for strength it will be fine. Keep the opinions coming though I'm interested in your opinions. I hate to ask mechanics because they are all doom and gloom and negative. You have to look to the future I say, try new things, you wont know till u try.... RIGHT?
 
going back to simple terms here...i have read that aluminum generally has a better strength to weight ratio than steel. i don't remember what grades were being referred to or if that kind of detail was actually mentioned though. it seems fairly obvious to me that alluminum should not be used as skid material, because from the little experience i have, i know it is much more malleable. however, i am still curious about using it in places such as a bumper fascia. my current steel setup uses 3/16" plate for the fascia and 1/4" for the mounts...would the strength of the 1/4" aluminum approach that of the 3/16" steel my bumper uses? also, perhaps doubling it up at the mounts for a 1/4" plate and winch or reciever mounting area would suffice...i am just speculating here. i wish i had a little more detail on this stuff, and after this i might search a little for it. at some point, even if aluminum is generally stronger for its weight, it would be rather impractical to use though. just the idea of possibly using 1/2" material for mounts sounds silly, and probably expensive...he is getting it free though.
 
I think the idea is great - its definetly different. I say build it and see what happens. I dont know about making a winch mount with it, but just for the bumper -DO IT! DO IT! what does tensile strenght matter(very interesting and informative, would like to know more!) ITS FREE! build it and break it - isnt that half the fun!
 
If it was me, I would build a bracket made out of steel that ties in the frame and has d ring tabs and a place to mount a winch or a reciever. Then make an aluminum housing that goes over it to give it the look you are after. Make it to just bolt on. That way you have the strengh of steel but the light weight for the areas that don't need as much strength.
 
Titanium bumper would be cool but again that would equal $$$$.
Because Titanium is as strong as steel but 45% lighter in weight, much more resistant to corrosion and organic acids, also resistant to Sulfuric acids (ideal for battery trays).
 
True, but there higher grade titanium alloys too, manganese and molybdenum. The thing I was getting at is that you can make it thicker and still be lighter than steel, plus corrosion resistance but the cost would be ridiculous!

Here i got this from a website really good info here:

So you see that in order to have the same strength, the titanium bar must be made much larger in cross section than the steel, but because of its good strength-to-weight ratio, the much larger titanium bar would still be lighter than the steel bar. Or, in other words, if the bars were exactly the same size, the titanium bar would be much weaker than the steel!! Ti alloys have superior strength/weight, but nobody said anything about strength/size!!

To illustrate graphically:


You also see from the example numbers that at knife hardnesses, the strength-to-weight ratio of the steel when hardened to RC 60 is actually a bit better than that of the Ti alloy! This is a fact often omitted by the comparisons: the strength-to-weight ratios are calculated based on materials at structural hardness (e.g. steel at RC 30-40 used as I-beams) rather than at knife hardness (RC 50-60) - strength of materials is greater at higher hardnesses, so in fact, when used for knives, steels can in fact have a similar strength/weight ratio to Ti alloys! If we redid this example with a lower carbon steel at RC 35-40, then the Ti alloy would look much better (approx 3 or 4 times better; aluminum is about 2 times better) in comparison.
 
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Titanium has it's place.. There's a lot of it in my arm.... (fell during a wheeling trip)...

Best Titanium's are 150ksi... Nothing for steel to hit this... Steel can hit 350ksi... If you're making airplanes that get somewhat hot and you need a bracket to hold on an engine... yep... Ti6Al4 makes sense...

Tain't real unless it's steel baby.

My personal titanium usage (by the way.. I've got 10 pieces of titanium in my arm... can walk through any airport without issue... means they're only checking for ferro-magantism... don't that make you feel better?)...

ouch2.jpg
 
My supply supervisor has Titanium plates across his front skull due to a 4 wheeler accident he hit a large branch on a narrow trail, yes he was going fast and yes he wasn't wearing a helmet, he already got chewed out by the first shirt and the commander, he's one lucky son of a buck if you ask me, one he's still alive and two his career is still intact somewhat.

BTW I'm not trying to prove anyone right or wrong I'm just throwing out some observations, I have some metallurgy knowledge, you kinda have to when you work on jet engines (not anymore crosstrained) or work in a aircraft parts foundry which I don't anymore (yay!). Yes I agree with you steel is the way to go and steel is a lot easier to work with and to repair compared to aluminum which a lot of times you can't repair you have to replace it instead.
 
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