67 CJ

[kf_chris]

Hey everyone
I've only met a few of the local guys out on the trail one time. But with my job it'll be later rather than sooner I can meet anyone in the local area.
I got this 67 last year and I don't think many people DON'T like a build or "what should I do" thread. It's fun to spend other people's money...and I love spending my own.
I've been PM'ing with Team Willys about this for a month or so and he's an awesome reasource and will be used for any install or fab work I can't do. This will be a long term build, not to start until winter 2010...but planning never hurt
So here's the jeep in the garage without the hard top that it came with (which was too heavy for us to lift so we just kinda slid it off and controlled the contact with the ground). The hard top is never going back on and will probably get restored and sold.

and with the top on as it was bought from the PO

It has an F head 134ci 4 cylinder. Which according to PO is fresh from a rebuild. It ran good the 2 times I started it, and it's only been started 4 times since the rebuild. T90 3 speed trans and Dana 18 xfer case I'm pretty sure. axles are Dana 27 front and Dana 44 rear, 5.38 gearing. There are 11 inch (pretty sure) drums on all corners. standard brakes and steering.

Here are some of the ideas I'm leaning towards for the build
4.3 swap
unsure about leaving the stock tranny in, depend on the availability of an OD
Saginaw steering
Holbrook long springs with either BDS or Rancho 9000's
32" mud tires maybe up to 34" later
Full cage installed with tie in to the front under the fenders
Probably box and repair the frame for peace of mind
Fuel cell where the rear seat is, I don't have interest in putting anyone back there anyway
Lockers possibly

I want to use this for primarily weekend drives in the country and trail running here in east TN

I do have a few questions and anyone can offer up their opinion.
Dana 44. Shaft upgrades? I haven't researched this but it's on the list of things for me to look into.
Disc brakes? I'd like something a little more than the small drums to stop me

I spent some time lookin on the Novak site, EJC5, and Pirate for ideas and inspiration.
I'm going to build my own cage, using the home bender design drawing off ebay. Before anyone starts telling me not to, I have the ability and knowledge to do this and ultimately my safety is my main concern (along with my passenger). I'll later list some ideas when I get that far in the build.

For now my main goal is to get it running and trustworthy. I really want an overdrive installed, and that's one of the first things I need to do.
I also am not 100 decided on the 4.3 swap. I really like mustangs so a 5.0 would be another motor I'd be interested in. Still undecided.

Opinions needed:
F head 134 with the OD...will that little motor with the overdrive be enough for 33's on the street? like keeping up with traffic if I want to take a weekend drive? Also with the 5.38 gears is that enough for the trail (and the street). I'm 40 min from Windrock and an hour from Jellico so those are the two I'll hit the most.

Anyway, I thought this would be interesting to some of the people here so I posted it up...boredome at work makes you do funny things.

 

[thechief86]

you know, i was a lot happier with my cj5 when it was basically stock. the gears should be fine, and yeah with 33's, too. mine had 3" springs and 2" shackles with 33's, 4.2 and 4.10's and i drove it from murfreesboro to memphis many times, and wheeled the piss out of it. it was a lot tippier than my xj, though, and i like the waggy that i traded it for a little more. either way, every tme i got in it, i couldn't help but smile, and it never left me stranded over 6 years, 3 of which i dd'd it. the only thing i wish it had had was fuel injection, because sometimes ol' lumpy would stall out on realy steep hills.

 

[Team Willys]

you know, i was a lot happier with my cj5 when it was basically stock. the gears should be fine, and yeah with 33's, too. mine had 3" springs and 2" shackles with 33's, 4.2 and 4.10's and i drove it from murfreesboro to memphis many times, and wheeled the piss out of it. it was a lot tippier than my xj, though, and i like the waggy that i traded it for a little more. either way, every tme i got in it, i couldn't help but smile, and it never left me stranded over 6 years, 3 of which i dd'd it. the only thing i wish it had had was fuel injection, because sometimes ol' lumpy would stall out on realy steep hills.

The later 6 cyl AMC CJs were a lot more to talk about. The early Willys and Kaiser (like his 67) CJ5s have all of the same issues as an early stock Willys CJ2A, 3A, 3B, etc, because basically, they are exactly the same; Bellcrank steering, either L head 134 4 cyl or the buick odd fire 231 for an engine; neither of which will really cut it by todays standards, weaker frames, weaker trans and axles, etc, etc, etc... the list goes on and on! Lol. If it were a later model, I would tell him to keep the 4.2 and just do a Howel TBI swap on it and maybe find a T-18 to throw behind it, but its not a late model... The earlys have virtually no bolt on aftermarket support. You have to upgrade and make things work yourself. But hey, I love my Willys, and theres a reason not many people wheel them. Because not just anybody can build one that will hold up. You have to upgrade virtually everything. Lucky for Chris, his does have decent axles, so thats a big head start vs building an earlier model Willys.

 

[kf_chris]

Well most of the influence for a motor swap is fuel injection also. I already know that I'm going to be on the hills at odd steep angles with a roll cage and probably lockers, and with the odd day driving around east knox...so the bigger motor with the FI is probably going to happen. And I'm finally happy to say that money really isn't an issue, I'm not going to put in a stak case and currie components...but as far as rebuilding and givng Tyler my hard earned dough I should be ok. Power steering is probably going to happen also, because when it comes down to that subject I'm just going to want the power steering to turn thos gigantic 33's. For now I'm going to get it on the street, and definitely the trail That shouldn't be too hard, but the real fun will happen once I collect my tools and parts that will be required for the rebuild.

 

[Team Willys]

Agreed! Power steering is a MUST! lol. But, good news is that with a saginaw conversion, you can use a Chevy or Ford style power steering pump very easily. We might have to make a custom pressure hose, but that shouldn't be too big of a deal. I actually have to do that tomorrow for the Willys. My engine belt rubbed the old line b/c it wasn't exactly the best fitting pre-bent off the shelf line. So, im gonna make a custom one that will fit better and not rub anything.

 

[The Box]

http://www.hermtheoverdriveguy.com/

This guy knows everything there is to know about early jeeps. He even manufactures parts that are not made anymore. He's got alot of kits that you could use or even take ideas from to build yourself. I have spent hours on the phone with this guy over the last few years. Give him a call, he is a valuable resource for sure.

 

[kf_chris]

oh I've been looking on Herm's site. next spring I'll be making a few choice puchases there and upgrading.
Also after skimming the first few pages I ruled out the ford motor swap idea. It looks to be way involved with a lot of other ideas and considerations....ideally i'd like a 4.0 BUT the length is an issue and I don't want to move the grill or firewall so that's not an option.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45309

 

[Ghost]

Bulding a willy's is like building a drag car out a an ac cobra. blashamy! Classics should be kept classic.

 

[kf_chris]

Well this isn't a Willy's. I appreciate the input but I want something that's going to be safe for me and the other drivers, max speed of 50 mph just won't do for one. This is the great thing about owning a vehicle and building it as you see fit.

 

[Team Willys]

Bulding a willy's is like building a drag car out a an ac cobra. blashamy! Classics should be kept classic.

Lol, not necessarily true. You haven't haven't seen my willys, or Dans before we did all the work to them. There was basically nothing to leave "classic." Now, that said, If I found a Willys that was rust free, 90-100% original, and it ran and drove, then I would do a full resto on it back to stock. But when you got a pile of crap that needs everything replaced, why not build it? Ghost, anybody can build an XJ, there are literally thousands upon thousands of them out there that are good reliable running driving vehicles. A willys is different and unique, and to build one is an awesome feat. Building something like that takes a lot of skill, designing, and planning. My 13 yr old sis could bolt some 60's and 42's under an xj with 30" of lift and try to bunny hop it over things... no offense. Your rig is nice, but way too big for my tastes. 38s are the biggest I'll ever go on anything that I wheel.

But a willys on a set of 35"+ tires locked f/r with a good drivetrain combo is unique and unusual and will perform amazingly well.

Not trying to start something, but don't be bashing on somebody because they want to build something that you didn't.

By the way Ghost the definition of a classic is as follows:
Classic-A. Having lasting significance or worth; enduring. b. Of a well-known type; typical. c. Serving as the established model or standard

So according to that, your cherokee is a classic. I guess all of the people on here, including you, messed up by not leaving their Jeeps in a "classic" form. Its kinda ironic that there was even a "classic" edition of the Cherokee. Odd, don't you agree Glen?



Here is the history of the jeep:

Willys-Overland History

The name that's meant JEEP for decades.


1908 John North Willys buys the Overland Automotive Division of Standard Wheel Company.
1912 John North Willys renames the Willys Overland Division to Willys-Overland Motor Company.
1936 Coming out of bankruptcy following the Great Depression, the company is reorganized as Willys-Overland Motors, Inc.
1940 Working from a Bantam Car Company design, Willys contracts to build military Jeeps for the war and produces about 360,000 vehicles by 1945.
1945 Willys-Overland begins producing the Civilian Jeep (CJ) line, with the introduction of the CJ2A model.
1946 Production begins on the Willys Jeep Wagon. Over 300,000 are manufactured between 1946 and 1965. Initially the all-steel wagons are only available in a burgundy and cream color scheme, the appearance of which suggested the "Woodie" wagon look typically found on wagons of this era.
1947 Production begins on the Willys Jeep Truck. From 1947 to 1965, more than 200,000 are manufactured.
1948 Production begins on the Willys Jeepster. Only 19,000 vehicles are manufactured from 1948 to 1950.
1949 CJ3A is introduced, and more than 132,000 are made before the production ends in 1953.
1949 Willys Wagons become available with 72 horsepower six cylinder motor, and four wheel drive - thus creating the first "sport utility vehicle".
1952 Willys CJ3B Jeeps go into production, with a raised hood to accomodate a taller "F" head engine with 25% more horsepower. By 1968, over 155,000 are sold. 1953 Kaiser buys Willys-Overland and changes name to Willys Motor Company.
1954 CJ5 debuts at the start of its three-decade run.
1954 Four wheel drive versions of the Willys Wagons and Trucks are now available with the "Super Hurricane" 115 HP 6 cylinder motor.
1956 Kaiser-Jeep announces the FC-150, a "cab-forward" style pickup truck based on the CJ5 chassis.
1956 Kaiser-Jeep announces the CJ6. Based on the CJ5, the CJ6 has a 20-inch longer wheelbase, adding to the passenger and cargo room. Roughly 50,000 units are produced between 1956 and 1983. The CJ6 proved more popular overseas than in the US, and to this day remains the "forgotten model" between the CJ5 and CJ7.
1957 Kaiser-Jeep announces the FC-170, smiliar to the FC-150 but with a 103.5" wheelbase and L-head 6 cylinder engine.
1963 Company changes name to Kaiser-Jeep corporation.
1965 Kaiser-Jeep discontinues production of Willys wagons and trucks, retiring the Willys name with the line.
1970 American Motors Corporation takes over Kaiser-Jeep.
1972 CJ5 wheelbase is lengthened to accomodate the AMC straight six engine.
1975 Willys-Overland resurrected as a wholesale/retail parts business.
1983 By the time the last CJ5 rolls off the line in 1983, more than 610,000 of the vehicles have hit the highways in the U.S. and around the world.
1987 American Motors is purchased by the Chrysler Corporation.
1998 Daimler-Benz merges with Chrysler Corporation to form DaimlerChrysler, the fifth largest auto maker in the world.
1998 Willys-Overland Motors started marketing its “Repli-Tub” replacement body...a true bolt-on replacement for both military and civilian Jeeps built from 1941-1986
2001 After 60+ years building Jeeps in the same plant, DaimlerChrysler built a new assembly facility just two miles north on I-75... still in Toledo, of course
2001 The last Cherokee rolled off the assembly line...
2002 Replaced (supposedly) by the Liberty (KJ)
2006 The Jeep Commander (XK) was introduced. And already, in 2007, making news of its possible discontinuation.
2007 A busy year...The completely redesigned Wrangler (JK) is introduced in both a two door, and for the first time ever, four door versions.
2007 Jeep Patriot and Jeep Compass (both MK) also make their first appearance
2007 DaimlerChrysler sells an 80% stake in the Chrysler division to Cerberus Capital for a mere $7.4 Billion, creating Chrysler LLC

So, Chris, while your CJ5 may not be a Willys technically, the frame and drivetrain are still Willys based. It wasn't until 1965 that the Willys name was removed. Your's is a Kaiser by name, but a Willys at heart.

 

[kf_chris]

I stand corrected! And anyway I have a willy's tailgate that's going back on, and probably welded in place. my CURRENT drivetrain is willys...but that's probably a temporary state!
Now you're right, if this thing was rust free and in great condition I'd restore it, but as it sits that's not true...because I highly doubt it would have been available for the price I got it at.
but when it comes down to it, as the owner of any vehicle...you can do whatever you want to it. I'll be happy to drive my jeep to the trail and drive and hopefully drive it home. not too many 60's era jeeps that I see which do that.

 

[Ghost]

Bantam built the jeep not Willys. Willys was contracted by the Us government when Bantam could not meet production. I guess you missed the As for building a willys being special I beg to differ. Bolting on axles and tires to leaf springs is not that hard and AA has anything you could want to make a motor fit any older cj made.

 

[kf_chris]

Really? Apparenly this is now a pissing contest.
You can't fit an inline 6 in my CJ, I'm pretty sure you'd have to do some modifications to at the very least sheet metal, probably more. Unless there's a way for AA to make an adapter that helps a 32" long motor in to a 29" area.
I thought this could be a friendly discussion about the build of something not commonly found on this site.

 

[Ghost]

Really? Apparenly this is now a pissing contest.
You can't fit an inline 6 in my CJ, I'm pretty sure you'd have to do some modifications to at the very least sheet metal, probably more. Unless there's a way for AA to make an adapter that helps a 32" long motor in to a 29" area.
I thought this could be a friendly discussion about the build of something not commonly found on this site.

No pissing contest here. I made a synical remark ribbin with a wink smiley and somone got their butt hurt. Technically this belongs here. http://www.naxja.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=48

 

[YJ-GENRAL]

no one here is getting upset... this is good typical naxja conversing

and as a thought of keeping the essence the same you could always replace the flat head with a newer 2.5L 4 banger and gear everything super high to compensate.

i believe jp mag did an article on gearing verses engine mods with the 4 cyl ... turns out your get more hp out of gears than engine mods for the same money when it comes to the 4 banger... i digress

i would say go with another 4 banger or the buick v6 that is really short... personally i would do the 4 banger from a 90's wrangler and do a better tranny and a 4:1 transfer case with 5.38's in the axles (axles are up to you) and then you would be able to get a more reliable engine but still be able to push it up a hill on some rocks.

 

[shortxjdoug]

finda 3.8 left over from a jk hemi swap that would be cool, and low mileage. but a 4.3 works too, theres a tbi motor for sale on tor right now

 

[Team Willys]

Bantam built the jeep not Willys. Willys was contracted by the Us government when Bantam could not meet production. I guess you missed the As for building a willys being special I beg to differ. Bolting on axles and tires to leaf springs is not that hard and AA has anything you could want to make a motor fit any older cj made.

Wrong again. Bantam originally won the bid with their Blitz Buggy in 1940. It was the only one that met the requirements and wasn't a total POS (although the willys design was cheaper and overall better, an insider that worked for Willys was being paid to sabotage the project so that bantam could win). However, since Bantam, Ford, And Willys were allowed to place bids, the government handed out the drawings and pictures to both Ford and Willys since they knew that Bantam couldn't keep up with the demand on their own. In the end, all three companies were finally accepted, and in 1941, the big three were awarded contracts to build 1500 vehicles each. This was roughly 3 weeks after Willys held a press conference on the steps of the capitol building in Washington D.C. They actually drove a Willys up and down the Capitols steps, riding senators, congressmen, and reporters. After some of the "riding around," one of the Willys reps was asked what the vehicle was called and he replied; "we call it a Jeep." And thus it was born. However, it wasn't long before the government realized that trying to maintain 3 different vehicles that had 3 different designs was impractical. So, another bid went out so that a single design could be chosen, and Willys won that one and got the contract. Well, much like Bantam, Willys soon was unable to keep up with production demands, so yet again, another bid went out for a second manufacturer to build the vehicles to the Willys specifications. Ford easily won that bid, and started building "jeeps" to Willys specifications. Thats why you sometimes see Willys parts with the Ford "F" on them, such as my front Fenders (My grill and fenders are both MB parts). And just one more tid bit of info. Ford gets credit for the stamped steel slotted grille. For some time, Willys had been building them out of flat iron; they were heavy, offered little protection, cost more to make, and lacked a good way to mount headlights. Ford had better tooling at this point, and presented a 9 slot grille design that had headlights mounted on hinges that were able to flip back so engine work could be preformed at night. ( I have this grille.) Willys accepted the proposal and that went into production for the MBs in 1941. It was later changed to a 7 slot design with the introduction of the CJ-2A at the end of 1945, which had larger 7 inch hard mounted headlights instead of the 5 inch flip around ones.



Also, AA doesn't have as much for the willys era jeeps as one might think. Most of the parts they offer are for 76-86 jeeps. And buiding a willys is far more complicated than you make it seem... can you leave the stock bellcrank steering? How about the under the floor master cylinder that never works righ, and the cable and axle clutch system? Oh yeah, what about the engine? And the 1.75" wide 10 leaf springs that ride worse than a log wagon and provide no flex? Not to mention that the pre 52 frames are basicaly junk, ask me how I know this! lol.

With a cherokee you have:
Fuel injected engine
Power steering
Power brakes
A good transmission from the factory
A good T-case from the factory
A good starting point for suspension from factory
And all of the other little comforts found in a modern vehicle
All of this, from the factory.

No offense Glenn, But I highly doubt you have the skill, patience, or know how to build a reliable and up to date Willys. You definitely don't have the experience with these like I do. I have built one for me, supervised and basically showed Dan how to build his and what to do/what not to do, and look at how they turned out. Not to mention the countless hours I have spent researching and reading about these "classic" jeeps. Did I mention I had to write a 9 page essay on an American company for my college history class... guess what I chose.

Not trying to be a dick, but don't come on here bad mouthing people because of what they built when you sir have nothing that compares to us. You may not have meant your remarks to directly reflect on me or what I do, but you should've known I would take that personally. Willys and CJ era jeeps in general are my thing. And until you have built one for yourself, do not tell me that "bolting on tires and axles to leaf springs is not that hard." Doing so only shows me and the rest of us that have actually seen our rigs and paid attention to them how uneducated you are on this subject. You are making yourself seem like a total DA here man.

Like I said, when you have spent 9 solid years doing dedicated research on these vehicles and have actually built at least one to wheel, then I welcome your arguments.

Until then, maybe you should back off and leave the "classic" jeep lovers alone.

 

[PacificEd]

We all have different areas of expertise here. Let's not turn this into a contest.

The internet is a difficult medium since we cannot detect the tone behind a post and many times it is mis-understood. Let's not get too torn up over what is said. The real test comes when you take your rig out and it accomplishes what you need it to. That is all that matters.

To build an XJ or a Willy's to perform you must acquire the right parts and install them in the right way. Only then will the rig work as intended.

Let's all be friends and have a little fun.

 

[Team Willys]

Sorry, I felt like I was at the end of the scope... At least I counter attacked with factual evidence, and in a politically correct way without losing my cool. Like you said Ed, ita hard to detect tones and seriousness on the net, so Im just stating facts, and backing up my remarks with those facts and evidence.

 

[PacificEd]

Nobody is gunning for anyone. Just remember we all like wrenching and wheeling and that is why we build rigs, even if they are different.