No Skill...

Does Any one here think that the reason for build these huge Machines (And not just XJ's but all 4X4's) Is because drivers have no paitence or time to learn to be a good driver? Its gotten so Bad that we have to move rocks to make obstacles harder. Supposedly there was a time in the early 40's to late 50's that most people (If they owned a Jeep) left it completly stock and took it to places like Moab and Rubicon. Completing these trails with stock vehicles(Or Nearly So) is an accomplishment worthy of recognition. The Phrase used to be "If you can't get there in a jeep, You'd Better think twice about going". Today it seems to be "If You can't get there in a Jeep, Pour Endless Amounts of Time and Money to build something that can". Just Food for thought...

Agreed.

My motto used to be "If I have to lift it to get there, I don't want to go."

However, due to over-exposure to type people, my resolve is weakening. When I go to Moab this year my '88 XJ will be sporting either Up Country springs or a (GASP!) budget boost.

Nonetheless, running completely stock except for 30" tires, I managed to surprise/embarrass the heck out of some lifted and modified CJs and YJs on Old Florida Road in Massachusetss last year.

In many ways I agree with that as well. Granted, I do have a lifted XJ, three inches so far, but soon to be about 4.5 or 5. But I've always said that finess goes a long way. I've gotten places in 2WD's before that people didn't think I could get to, it's just how you do it that matters.

As for those that are lifting to insane levels. Well, I will agree that some of these people are lifting just to look cool (See www.jeepsunlimited.com), but some of them are skilled drivers who have just gotten beyond the level of their rig.

An XJ can do a lot stock, I personally like it better when people wait awhile before their first lift, myself, I took it out in the dirt for three years before I went up my three inches. I've had the lift on for about two years now and am going up again because I've started going out on the trail with people and they are a bad influence!

Sequoia

I keep going to bigger and bigger tires as the obstacles that I once could cross with 32" tires, now swallow the whole Jeep. The 35" that I run now, are feeling small on obstacles like 'Rocker Knocker' (good example, IMHO) in Pritchett in Moab. I first ran that canyon as a passenger with 31" Thornbirds, first drove it with 32" MT/R's and then 33" SSR's and recently 35" MT/R's. 35"'s are getting pretty small as that's gotten more and more eroded. (still the same line will get you up every time, though)


I'd have to say, I liked the 33" tires the best for the XJ chassis.

Well a lot of us have been "doing" this for many years. Myself, I've been wheeling for 15 years. Driving & camping is one aspect of the sport that most people grab on to & is the meat of the sport, but there is another side to it. What’s pushing the sport into further extremes is the custom fabrication hobby that has been evolving. Use to be you bought a Jeep, bought a rancho lift, put some bigger tires on, & go wheeling. The jeep handled like crap on the road, beat you to death on the trail & you loved every minute of it. For a lot of people this just isn't good enough anymore & off the shelf lifts can't or won't satisfy our creative needs even though it way take your rig to the same place a custom lift would. The point is that there is a natural evolution to everything. Wasn't windows 3.1 good enough to run the programs you needed? What operating system do you run on your computer now? Everything evolves & the backyard fabricator aspect of this sport is exploding at the moment.

Matt

Hear, hear! When I first joined this group I was apprehensive about this topic. I only mod my rig to get where I need to go...

I understand the rock crawling urge and this group *has* been a bad influence . I am installing more stuff on my rig than I need, thanks to you guys p~~~~.

That wasn't a complaint, mind. The info, comraderie, support, and wheeling fun to be had here are well worth a few extra parts.

Blah, blah, blah, blah.

If you don't want to build it- don't.
If you do want to build it- have at it.

I don't think your skill arguement has much of a backing. There aren't a whole lot of folks out there that just jump in and dump $10,000 into modifications right off.

One thing that needs to be taken into consideration also- Modifications increase your rigs ability. This in turn increases your confidence in your rig(if you're doing it right), which increases your ability and skill level.

Sean

I agree, sort of... Top-shelf/bux-up equipment can make a greenhorn look really good (until they break or flop it due to inexperience/overconfidence)

I have built my present XJ on a very tight budget (thanks to some members for some great deals on hand-me-down parts) and as it sits, it is pretty capable of the trails we have down here... OTOH before the latest buildup, I was running with 2 open diffs and a (very) part time t-case on a 'mild' lift. I had to flog it a lot harder than I liked to, but usually got on through the obstacle w/o taking cable or strap. Same went for this year's Crawl, I hit Guardrail with 3 bald tires and a double-shot of YeeHah! (and made it LOL) but w/o the confidence I have in my Jeep I'd have never dared try that one.

I really don't care if folks like to wheel with mildly-built rigs, as long as they know their limitations as far as trail levels go. (It's OK to strech limits though, thats how experience / confidence is gained.)

In all sports I've been involved in, the 'haves' will always jump in with their money and resources and build some nice stuff, try to outdo the old schoolers, get tired of trying to buy their happiness and move on to something else. The 'havenots' {or 'purists'} will pick up the pieces of the 'haves' and use thier resources to make their machines better.

It's starting to happen around here anyway. Some of the 'haves' that I used to race with have given up their Jeeps and moved on to boats or back to race cars as the 'Jeeping' thing never really caught them.

One Ton wrote:

"blah, blah, etc."

Blah, blah, blah right back at ya, buddy!

$10,000 - no. But there are plenty of guys that dump a $1000 or two w/o the first thought of how to use throttle, steering, and spotter correctly. Check out how many talk about how high and what lockers before they even give any consideration to armor for instance. Or tire tread type. Or for recovery/safety gear.

Loved my stock trucks - took me where I wanted to go in the "outback" for years - could drive 2000 miles in comfort and just dump off into the woods. Yeah, then I got bit too - as Eagle would say - "went to the Darkside" and am now sporting a whopping 4.5" on 32's (yee-hah).

I'd like to think I'm a better driver now, but I can't help thinking about how successful I was on Moab trails for the first time with 235's, 3.07's and a Trash-Lok. (full set of skids though) Nice thing about our rigs (which we all know) is that it's a blast to drive in ANY configuration.

Not totally disagreeing with you Sean, but I do think that experience and skills development has taken a backseat these days. And, Matt has a very good point, the "technical" aspect of this sport is an end in its own right these days.

Mike in NJ atriot:

I think there is couple things that show up that might give the builds a bad name:
1. The build for show, but unsafe
2. Build but drive with no skill.....

Personally I'm kind of in the middle of the road on that one... Originally my approach was minimalist, but now I really bit the bug. I don't know if I will ever make a tank out of my XJ (44" tires and such lol). Now I'm growing and growing (slowly) and I think that growth has to be earned/required in a way. What I'm trying to say is that a newbie who comes in to the hobby with a virgin XJ and from the getgo puts on taller gears, 33" tires, 4.5" of lift, lockers front and rear will most likely not learn much and very quickly he will need/want 35's 37's and so on. On the other hand those that start with stockers and wheel those, then go to the BB or a small 3" lift with 31's and then regear then once they reach the 33" 4.5" lift and front and rear lockers, they will be able to go waaaaaaaaaay further on that then the other guy will ever be able to... So I guess building is good, but you have to grow to it or grow with it.....

Kejtar

Well Said Mike,

As we Say in Motocross "The Rider Makes the Bike Not he Other way around"

But being able to rely on your machine is good to : "Racing is 98% Rider and 2% Bike, BETTER MAKE THAT 2% COUNT!"

Blah, blah, blah.

I love it when this topic comes up every 6 months, nobody is ever right and we get to argue about something that doesn't really matter anyway. God, I love the internet.

Speak for yourself you leftist agitator!

Some of us are always right (ask Eagle).



Mike in NJ atriot:

Mike, I expected a much better response out of you than that.

Piss and moan all you want about folks building, not building, blah, blah.

Where's your "real jeep", did you buy it or build it. Does it really matter as long as you're out there using it for whatever you intended it for? I love wheelin' with all levels of drivers and all levels of vehicles.

80% of the time I'm out there trying to push people to their limits and 90% of the time I'm helping them fix it from that previous 80%.

It's all fun to me. Especially when I get to argue with the NJ kid.

Sean

Okay, MIke, I admit it ... you're always right.

(Except when you're not )

OneTon... but what about teh 12" lift on 10" chrome blocks with stock axles, stock gears and 37's? Is that a good example of building?

Eagle sir, how could I possibly be as right as the poster of 1618 (at last count) replies????

And 2000LB - we're not arguing - we're just boosting OUR reply totals. (Sorry if my witicisms aren't cutting it today - try poking that guy in Chick-kago, he's always good for a one-liner).

Mike in NJ atriot:

Remi, whos ass did you pull that one out of. I didn't realize we were turning this into a building skill thread also.

Yeah, I'll go wheelin' with that person. He'll know ahead of time that I'm not going to be helping him when he breaks. We all have to learn somehow. I remember when I first started wheeling and that was the only way to get a chevy up in the air. We had a grand ol' time at it and I never died. We sure learned a lot, BECAUSE WE WERE OUT THERE USING OUR VEHICLES AND COMING BACK AND MAKING THEM BETTER . We weren't sitting somewhere crying about our inablity to not make something, we got out the equipment and made it work.

Woo hoo, it's gettin' fun now.

hahaha OneTon I kind of came about cause think that this is a more complicated topic then build/not build that's why I brought that up . In my opinion one has to grow with the rig and what you're saying supports it (BECAUSE WE WERE OUT THERE USING OUR VEHICLES AND COMING BACK AND MAKING THEM BETTER). This way as people grow with it they understand it better and they can make a design/mod that better suits them instead of basing everything on the opinion of others.

In any case, the way I understand the original post is that people go out, and spend $$ and build huge machines (some of the crazy trucks I've seen here in SoCal or even that tank of a GC on ebay) and they go out wheeling (maybe) but since they lack the skill to put it all to use. Look at it this way: kids start first by rolling around Then by experimenting they start to crawl and next thing you know they crawl in both directions and the they start walking and finally running. I think same parallel applies to wheeling, except here the learning goes hand in hand with building
Kejtar
P.S. It's Friday, it's 2pm and somehow I have a feeling that I'm not making much sense to others, but at least it makes sense to me (for now LOL)