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Suspension Tuning

LBEXJ

NAXJA Member #721
I have just about read myself asleep several times searching and reading this forum ... maybe it's time for some feedback from ya'll.

My goal is to have approximately 6" of lift with a front and rear suspension that works (articulates) as well in the rear as in the front (or nearly so). I do not want a stiff suspension ... my old butt is just too boney!

My current plan is to use a 4.5" ZJ front coil. I have a heavy front bumper and will be mounting a Winch in the future. In the rear, I have Dakota Leafs to install and am leaning heavily towards using the ORGS shackles.

I have on hand, a full length and short AAL that is currently on the pack I'm running (Bad .. Bad .. no articulation and stiff as hell). These are parts I could use if necessary though.

I'm having trouble understanding the interaction of the relatively flat stock main leaf with the high arch of the Dakota springs and how they will perform. Seems the flat spring will be countered by the arch of the Dakotas, and vice versa.

Could I get some comments / opinions / help ...

Thanks!

Les
 
So, you're adding the Dakota leaf pack to your XJ main leaf? I believe the Dakota pack (main leaf) is longer than the XJ, so you'd have to move the front spring hanger forward to use the whole Dakota pack.

Here's some general info on making the rear leaf pack work well. To show that I know what I'm talking about, I have only used home built rear leaf packs, and here's a couple of pics to show the balance between front and rear. This pic is with stock length leaves in the back and RE ZJ coils in the front.
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To get a leaf spring pack to ride well and flex, the friction in the pack needs to be minimized. Make sure the shackle bolts and front spring bolt aren't too tight, you should be able to turn them with an end wrench.....snug, but not tight. There is considerable friction between the leaves, especially after they get rusted and gunked up. Go to any local spring shop and get plastic liner and use it full length between all the leaves. Wire brush and sand down each leaf and paint it with a good quality paint, I use an epoxy paint that comes in a spray can that is very tough. If you end up short on liner, or can't find any, at least clean and paint the leaves, use a plastic end pad on every leaf, and use a piece of plastic in the center of each leave about as long as the spring plate. This will allow a gap between each leaf after the u-bolts get tightened down and will reduce friction, but the gap can get filled up with mud and still rust eventually, but will be better than the leaves actually touching each other. It's still smoother with the full length liners if you can do it. There are two types of liner, one is flat, and the other has small edges on it like an I beam. The flat will work itself out between the leaves, so I only use it in the middle leaves that have the spring clamps to hold them in. Between the lower and upper leaves I use the stuff with the edge on it so it stays put. Take a cold chisel and notch the edge of the liner for the u-bolts before you install the spring packs.

Generally, more leaves and flatter leaves will give you better flex. The flatter springs will droop more, since a pack with higher arch is already arched, not much more to give, and a flatter spring can droop (arch) a bunch. People talk bad about blocks, but I like them. I build the leaf pack to handle the basic lift and load, but not too stiff to ride nice and flex, and then level out the rig for desired lift with blocks. This approach requires a traction bar, since flatter leaves with less friction along with blocks will increase the potential for spring wrap, which will destroy a good leaf pack in a hurry.

The other thing is to have loose spring clamps. You need leaves that have the U shaped clamp that is riveted to the leaf, with a roller on the top. If you have the U shaped clamps that are riveted on the bottom, but bent over at the top, straighten them out. You need spring clamps to keep the leaves aligned, but you don't want the clamp to squeeze the spring together or limit them sliding. You can run the clamps open on the top if you have a lighter rear end and smaller tires, and a good traction bar, but you are risking breaking a main leaf. With larger tires and a heavy rear end the main leaf will drop too much and decrease both vehicle performance and spring life. The best is to keep a bolt through the top of the clamps, across the spring, but lengthen them enough to allow good movement of the main leaf in droop.....but not too much.

It doesn't much matter what leaves you use, out of what vehicle, or how much arch they have. Once the center bolt is tightened, they all come together and each leaf adds it's force to the pack. Just be sure to space out the length of each leaf as evenly as possible, trimming the length of a leaf if neccessary. This is where the full length liners come in handy because you don't need to worry about cutting off the hole in the end of the leaf that holds the plastic friction pad. It will take some trial and error to get it the way you want it, but removing springs isn't hard. Get a supply of center bolts, and while you're at it get some new u-bolts, before you start. If you run a big rear end with big tires, it's also wise to increase the size of the u-bolts from 1/2" to 9/16". Any local spring shop can whip you up a set of u-bolts while you wait.

So, loose shackle bolts, loose spring clamps, full length liners, and relatively flat spings, and you'll have a spring that can carry weight but still flex and ride good. My current springs are 1/2 ton Chevy with the stock XJ bottom leaf, and an MJ main leaf, which is five inches longer than the XJ main leaf. I also seem to always have one or two leaves more in the pass side pack than the drivers side pack, which I think comes from the torque loads of low gears, and possibly from the action of the traction bar, or from my old swing out tire carrier sitting open in camp.......don't know for sure, but there is nothing wrong with having more leaves in one side than the other if that's what it takes to even out the lift height side to side.

Hope this helps, have fun,
 
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Thanks so much Goatman ... I sure appreciate your time to help me out with this. You know exactly where I want to go with this project ...

I have painted all the leaves in the leaf packs with "Slip Paint" I picked up at John Deere. I know this is good stuff for reducing friction plus it resists mud, etc. from sticking to whatever you paint with it. Not sure if you are familiar with it, but it has graphite in it. I work at a plastics manufacturing plant, so I can get some plastic liner material (polyethylene). There is a Spring Shop south of here, so I'll take some time to go there and see what I can find as far as liner and clamps too.

I'll definately use your info ...

Les

PS: Lovin' every minute of it ....
 
Jump This said:
Goatdaddy....you say you use MJ main leafs that are 5" longer....do you reloacate the forward mount or just use the extra as arch?

I made a new front spring hanger that is 3" forward of the stock one, and then made boomerang shackles that move the rear eye 2" back. This leaves the center pin in exactly the same position as with the XJ main leaf. The MJ main leaf is 3" longer in front and 2" longer in back. When the spring flattens out, it's longer no matter what the arch.
 
Goatman said:
Generally, more leaves and flatter leaves will give you better flex. The flatter springs will droop more, since a pack with higher arch is already arched, not much more to give, and a flatter spring can droop (arch) a bunch.

This is one thing I'm finding hard to get a grasp on. Seems logical to me if a spring is flat to begin with, it would actually have less downward travel to offer except for what it gets from the shackle. They could offer more compression however. Now, keep in mind ... my "logic" is not based upon actual experience, just these wheels going round in my head ... that's why I'm here.

What does seem logical to me ... higher arched springs that have a low spring rate have more travel to offer both up and down as they hold a static position somewhere in between when under normal vehicle load.

Are you saying, if I cannot get enough enough downward travel from my springs, add a flatter spring to the pack?

Kick me in the head ...

Les
 
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I think what he is saying is that an arched spring is almost at its capacity to move any further downard. If you had all your lift from blocks or many leafs in your pack to give you lift, a flat long spring will not only have a lot more down travel but up travel as well.

My RE springs are arched, they do not move down very far when they drop into a hole. They do compress well when ontop a rock. Most of this movement comes from my shackles.

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lbexj said:
This is one thing I'm finding hard to get a grasp on. Seems logical to me if a spring is flat to begin with, it would actually have less downward travel to offer except for what it gets from the shackle. They could offer more compression however. Now, keep in mind ... my "logic" is not based upon actual experience, just these wheels going round in my head ... that's why I'm here.

What does seem logical to me ... higher arched springs that have a low spring rate have more travel to offer both up and down as they hold a static position somewhere in between when under normal vehicle load.

Are you saying, if I cannot get enough enough downward travel from my springs, add a flatter spring to the pack?

Kick me in the head ...

Les

When I talk about springs, I mean the whole leaf pack. One leaf is just that, a leaf. I'm talking about the whole leaf pack being flatter. If both a flat spring and an arched spring end up with close to the same arch when the axle is drooped, the spring that starts out flatter will have more axle droop to get to the same arch. Of course, shackle length and position will have something to do with this.....if the shackle is short and too far forward at ride height the shackle will limit droop. Additionally, there is no such thing as a softer, higher arched spring pack (well, mostly). In most cases, a stiffer spring will have more arch and a softer spring will have less arch, once you put the weight of the vehicle on it. Now, soft can mean two things. Soft can be limited weight capacity, or soft can be a good ride. By minumizing friction you can have both good weight carrying ability and a good ride. Many stiff riding springs are that way from friction as much as from spring stiffness. My springs are flexy and ride great, but if I load it down for a trip it hardly squats in the back.
 
So if I wanted to lift the back end 4.5" and use an RE spring would I be better off with a 3.5" spring and longer shackle or the 4.5" spring and a revolver shackle? I want the springs to have lots of droop, but not a lot of compression since I want to use 33" tires with only 4.5" of lift. I'd much prefer to trim the hell out of my wheel wells then lift it a lot.

Robert
 
What are boomerang shackles? And where can I find Big Off Road 4.5" springs? If I go to a longer spring pack will I get more compression to go along with the greater droop? The reason that I'm so opposed to going higher than about 4.5" is not only because I don't want to raise the center of gravity any more than I have to but also because I'm in a wheelchair and I've got to be able to get in this thing when I finish.

Robert
 
How much do you load your Xj for the trail. If it gets pretty heavy then the BOR springs will work well. They are designed to carry about and extra $250LBS.

These may be too stiff or ride too high for you, so you may be better off with a custom pack. Like Goatman mentioned, many leafs and flater and longer.

There use to be a pack made by National, but I think they were more in the 6" range. They had 11 leaves and were on the thin side.
 
I think I'm beginning to understand now what you are saying. I was looking at the springs I have ready to install, the Dakotas, and they have a decent amount of arch (whether or not it's "a lot" ... I'm not sure). Anyway ... the distance from the top of the arch to the bottom of the arch is the limit of droop these springs will likely get by themselves. At static, these springs will be somewhere in between. Whereas a longer, flatter spring starting at the same static level will actually flex the same total distance ... distance traveled is further = articulation.

Goatman said:
If both a flat spring and an arched spring end up with close to the same arch when the axle is drooped, the spring that starts out flatter will have more axle droop to get to the same arch.

ChuckD said:
think what he is saying is that an arched spring is almost at its capacity to move any further downard. If you had all your lift from blocks or many leafs in your pack to give you lift, a flat long spring will not only have a lot more down travel but up travel as well.

I love the kick in the head! Maybe I'll get this figured out (to a degree).

So much is spent on here about "lift" when it comes to leaf springs ... not enough about how the leaves actually work. Now I'm wondering if the Dakota Leafs are going to do what I want them to do :helpme:

Les
 
The amount of arch while the springs are sitting on the ground doesn't mean much. The only thing that matters is how much arch there is with the weight of the vehicle on them, and there's only one way to find that out. A spring with less spring rate will flatten out more than a spring with a higher spring rate, and both could have the same unloaded arch.

Just stick the Dakota leaves on there, then adjust it using leaves from your XJ pack if you have to to get it the way you want it.....maybe even after running it a little.
 
A spring (pack) that sits at rest with initial arch has to arch more to droop, but flattens out when compressed. So the rear shackle should sit just about vertical at rest. The total angle through which the shckle can swing thus becomes one factor limiting the spring's articulation.

A spring that sits basically flat at rest (like an XJ spring) sits with the shackle already swung back, because a flat spring can't get any longer. Droop or compression, it can only get shorter (arched up or down), so whether you load it or unload it, the shckle swings forward. Assuming the shackle has the same total range of swing, now it can use that full range for droop or compression, whereas with an arched spring it only has half for droop and half for compression.

I can visualize that, but I don't know if this explains it clearly.
 
You explained this well Eagle ... I understand. So when I put the leaf pack together, I can use this information to either adjust the Leaf Pack or change the style of shackle to accomodate the Leaf Pack ... right?

I've noticed there are several types of shackles available. Is this one of the reasons why?

Les
 
Allright so im still trying to figure this stuff out. so if any one has some detailed pictures or has done a write up on it please link me to it. Cause i thought for it to gain height the main leaf had to be longer providing for arch, or am i dumb and the main leaf is actually the bottom leaf. Alright now ill stop talking cause im sure i sound like a dumb ass. Any infomation would be helpful
 
I disagree with the idea that an arched spring has less droop to give...depends on the spring rate and shackle length, and no spring can droop more than the shackle motion allows. Arched springs are longer - and so they have more inherent travel - an XJ spring will never be so stiff than a *single* spring cannot have massive amount of travel (for a single leaf spring, the more arch the better in terms of travel). But when you connect those two arched and longer travel leaf springs with an axle, all that extra travel is not realized (at least not without some spring wrap).

I run BIGOffroad 6" leafs, which are specifically designed to reduce spring wrap (and they do). Without the axle connected at all, they can droop to almost the end of my shock travel, which is about 6" of down travel (I just about have to disconnect the shocks to remove the springs). With the axle bolted up, the droop is cut in half. I have modified RE shackles that allow rearward motion all the way up to the body, but it doesn't get close.

So why can't my setup use all the travel in the spring? Because it is binding. The movement of the spring center fore and aft is exceeding the limits of the rubber bushings to accomodate it without bind.

Here is how it works: during articulation, one side of the spring is compressing, and with a highly arched spring this moves the axle towards the rear. The other side is drooping, and the axle has to come forward. With leaf springs, the bushings have to provide this fore/aft movement, or the spring has to bend (spring wrap). So the springs have to allow the axle to move off of a perpendicular plane to the two leaf springs, and highly arched springs cannot do this. This is why you want to run as long of a shackle as possible with highly arched springs...it makes the arc wider on compression and droop, and the wider arc lessens the fore/aft axle movement.

On the flip side, a nearly flat spring will still move to the rear initially under compression, but then the shackle and axle will come back forward. This stays more in line with the side that is drooping, and within the tolerance of a rubber bushing to allow the variance in axle placement side to side. This is why leaf springs virtually require rubber bushings, and a reason why poly is such a bad idea: put poly in leaf springs and you are introducing bind.

So, the more arch in the spring, the longer the shackle needs to be (I don't think 1.5" lift shackles are enough for a 6" spring). I think if a 3" lift shackle were possible it would allow proper flex on a 5" leaf and you'd have just massive travel for an 8" lift...but a 7" spring and a 1" lift shackle like I have binds like crazy, and it has nothing to do with the shackle motion being restricted.

Nay
 
just thought that i would bring up this awesome tech again. Thanks Goatman. found it a while ago - then searched for it (about 1/2 hour) and thought id make it so that others would see it.
 
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