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  #1  
Old March 6th, 2012, 01:29
VAhasnoWAVES VAhasnoWAVES is offline
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3 Link Build - Using Prefabbed Brackets?

i recently picked up a HP44, welded wedges, that im putting under my cherokee. was originally planning replicate stock geometry, and run short arms on drop brackets, like "Prepmech" did is this thread. but after looking at the cost of a bracket kit, i started to get a little turned off of that idea. then i stumbled across this thread by "twodoorXJ" and fell in love. by piecing together some prefabbed brackets, i could add frame stiffeners to my parts list and spend about the same amount of money. also, making my own arms would be a little costly in the beginning, but id have a lot of parts left over to recoop some cost in the long run.

basically... im wondering about geometry using prefabbed brackets in the manner that twodoorXJ did. i want to run a 3 link on the passenger side in the same manner. i plan to turn the C's and set the pinion angle on my 44, as well as keep it full width. high steer, and build my own track bar. after adding stiffeners, the brackets ive picked out are:
driver side frame
passenger side frame
coil mounts, shocks, LCA's axle side

track bar
UCA axle side

- to me, it makes sense to use the 10 degree ruff stuff UCA mount, and 10 degree ballistics frame side mount. am i off in this thinking?
- how would i go about determining how long to make my arms, and how far to separate the mounts vertically? will these brackets give me what i need/want?
- what joints does everyone suggest? i will be going with ruff stuff.

i was thinking a DOM sleeve at the frame side, with a bushing, as this will see some road miles, and i dont like the idea of two opposite threaded joints at each end, at highway speeds. clayton gave me that piece of concern. is it possibly to make the UCA, LCAs, and track bar with the same size heims to minimize the amount of spares i need, instead of carrying 35232 kids of heims?

also, the brackets i was originally looking at was claytons. what i like the most was their lower coil bucket, and the fact that it was slanted like the OEM mounts, they are the only ones that ive found like this, and i remember someone in another build grabbing them because of it. i forget who it was... the also seem much easier to modify to accept a bump stop, versus this design. im forgetting sway bar links, but i was planning to add those once the rest of the suspension was figured out.





lastly... does anyone have any suggestions for this build? are my plans way off? any good 3 link info?
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  #2  
Old March 6th, 2012, 10:42
deucestudios's Avatar
deucestudios deucestudios is offline
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Re: 3 Link Build - Using Prefabbed Brackets?

You might need a bit more angle than the passenger side frame mount you plan on.
Barnes4WD has some neat pre fabbed bracket solutions you should check out too.
Be mindful of hole size, some things are 9/16, a lot of ruff stuff are 5/8 or 1/2"
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  #3  
Old March 6th, 2012, 10:51
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MoparManiac MoparManiac is offline
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Re: 3 Link Build - Using Prefabbed Brackets?

Let me preface this with a disclaimer: I'm FAR from a suspension expert.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VAhasnoWAVES View Post
- to me, it makes sense to use the 10 degree ruff stuff UCA mount, and 10 degree ballistics frame side mount. am i off in this thinking?
- how would i go about determining how long to make my arms, and how far to separate the mounts vertically? will these brackets give me what i need/want?
- what joints does everyone suggest? i will be going with ruff stuff.
1. Sure, 10 degree vs 0 degree I don't see doing a whole lot against or for you. Whatever is easier to fit. Remember, you're putting something in place that was never designed to be there. It's all about making things fit.

2. As long or as short as you need them to be. The only rule is the length of the arms in relationship to each other. Obviously keep the LCAs the same length, but make sure the UCA isn't much longer or shorter than those, as you'll get pinion climb or dive during travel.

3. I would go with ruffstuff heims personally. Do NOT run any sort of bushing on the UCA. You only have one UCA with a 3 link, and it sees 0 binding and holds all the load of the pinion. Only use hard joints (cartridge, heims).

Quote:
Originally Posted by VAhasnoWAVES View Post
i was thinking a DOM sleeve at the frame side, with a bushing, as this will see some road miles, and i dont like the idea of two opposite threaded joints at each end, at highway speeds. clayton gave me that piece of concern. is it possibly to make the UCA, LCAs, and track bar with the same size heims to minimize the amount of spares i need, instead of carrying 35232 kids of heims?
Why don't you like the idea of two opposite threaded joints?

If a heim fails on the road at speed, you're most likely really hurt/dead so spare joints don't help you.

If a heim fails offroad, it will take out plenty of other things with it so spare heims would be less of a concern for me.

Build it slightly overkill and don't worry about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VAhasnoWAVES View Post
also, the brackets i was originally looking at was claytons. what i like the most was their lower coil bucket, and the fact that it was slanted like the OEM mounts, they are the only ones that ive found like this, and i remember someone in another build grabbing them because of it. i forget who it was... the also seem much easier to modify to accept a bump stop, versus this design. im forgetting sway bar links, but i was planning to add those once the rest of the suspension was figured out.
I love my Clayton lower buckets. XJ coils aren't flat bottom from the factory, so flat bottom mounts suck. Very easy to mount bumpstops off of. I would upgrade the nut they give you from 3/8" to 1/2" though so you can use a larger bolt to hold the bumpstop in place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VAhasnoWAVES View Post
lastly... does anyone have any suggestions for this build? are my plans way off? any good 3 link info?
Plenty of info on Pirate4x4. Do some searching.
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  #4  
Old March 6th, 2012, 13:51
Goatman's Avatar
Goatman Goatman is offline
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Re: 3 Link Build - Using Prefabbed Brackets?

You're asking a lot of questions here. Could handle it easy in a phone conversation, don't have time to write a whole article for you on how to build a front 3 link. I have a question for you, how are your welding and fab skills? I wouldn't worry about a heim joint coming apart, every race car or truck in existence has heim joints on steering and suspension, I'd be concerned with weld quality.

Is this going to be a desert car, or a rock crawler? I think the mounts you're looking at are fine, it's how you use them that makes the difference. DOM link material with welded in threaded bungs is pretty standard fare for steering and suspension links. Virtually all quality builds use right and left hand thread joints on the ends so adjustment can be done without removing the link, just makes sense and is not strength issue. Whoever says different is trying to sell you their stuff or doesn't know what they're talking about. Make the arms the length they end up by positioning the mounts where they'll fit. A few inches difference in arm length doesn't matter. I'd recommend using the Synergy XJ control arm mounts from Poly Performance. I like that the LCA's are mounted inboard at the frame for better clearance and the brackets are made to go on an XJ. As far as link seperation on the axle, mount the lowers even with the axle, or close to it, and use an 8" tall UCA axle mount, that will be fine. Be sure you know your steering link positions and the coil seat position before you decide on what track bar axle mount to use. Most people move the spring seat back on the axle which gives you more room for the steering and track bar, and lets the axle move forward a few inches.

All for now, have fun.
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  #5  
Old March 6th, 2012, 16:53
VAhasnoWAVES VAhasnoWAVES is offline
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Re: 3 Link Build - Using Prefabbed Brackets?

Weld quality is at par. I can confidently stick two pieces pf metal together that will last longer than the jeep. Though I only have a little Lincoln 110 and question its abilities for this job. For piece of mind, I had intended to tack my brackets into place and then take them down the road to a welding shop in town to be burnt in.

Realistically, I could probably make my own brackets. The ones I cut off of my 44 were home brew... And hideous. I want the be astetically pleasing to some extent, that's why I'm wanting to use pre tabbed brackets.

As for threaded ends on one side, as Clayton says... The idea of the arms being able to unscre in the event that a jam nut works it's way loose is discomforting. But I guess if that was really an issue, no one would be doing it that way.

What size heims do you suggest for the uppers, lowers, track bar, and steering? Like I said, I'd ideally like to minimize the amount of different sizes I'm using. And your suggesting to do the track bar last to make sure everything else clears? I had considered something like the petty cash rig uses. I'll be going crossover with high steer.

This jeep will see road time. DD duties until I'm done with college and it becomes a trailer queen. I just want to skip the intermediate step of building my 30/8.25. and it's likely that I'll finish school or pick up a new DD before these axles are even in.
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  #6  
Old March 6th, 2012, 16:55
foxwar71 foxwar71 is offline
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Re: 3 Link Build - Using Prefabbed Brackets?

RuffStuff 3 link kit + Clayton coil buckets and thier style axle LCA mounts.


Then, just wing it for everything else
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  #7  
Old March 6th, 2012, 18:29
psullivam psullivam is offline
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Re: 3 Link Build - Using Prefabbed Brackets?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goatman View Post
You're asking a lot of questions here. Could handle it easy in a phone conversation, don't have time to write a whole article for you on how to build a front 3 link. I have a question for you, how are your welding and fab skills? I wouldn't worry about a heim joint coming apart, every race car or truck in existence has heim joints on steering and suspension, I'd be concerned with weld quality.

Is this going to be a desert car, or a rock crawler? I think the mounts you're looking at are fine, it's how you use them that makes the difference. DOM link material with welded in threaded bungs is pretty standard fare for steering and suspension links. Virtually all quality builds use right and left hand thread joints on the ends so adjustment can be done without removing the link, just makes sense and is not strength issue. Whoever says different is trying to sell you their stuff or doesn't know what they're talking about. Make the arms the length they end up by positioning the mounts where they'll fit. A few inches difference in arm length doesn't matter. I'd recommend using the Synergy XJ control arm mounts from Poly Performance. I like that the LCA's are mounted inboard at the frame for better clearance and the brackets are made to go on an XJ. As far as link seperation on the axle, mount the lowers even with the axle, or close to it, and use an 8" tall UCA axle mount, that will be fine. Be sure you know your steering link positions and the coil seat position before you decide on what track bar axle mount to use. Most people move the spring seat back on the axle which gives you more room for the steering and track bar, and lets the axle move forward a few inches.

All for now, have fun.
Damn Goatman! dont make it sound too easy.
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  #8  
Old March 6th, 2012, 20:04
boostamante boostamante is offline
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Re: 3 Link Build - Using Prefabbed Brackets?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goatman View Post
You're asking a lot of questions here. Could handle it easy in a phone conversation, don't have time to write a whole article for you on how to build a front 3 link. I have a question for you, how are your welding and fab skills? I wouldn't worry about a heim joint coming apart, every race car or truck in existence has heim joints on steering and suspension, I'd be concerned with weld quality.

Is this going to be a desert car, or a rock crawler? I think the mounts you're looking at are fine, it's how you use them that makes the difference. DOM link material with welded in threaded bungs is pretty standard fare for steering and suspension links. Virtually all quality builds use right and left hand thread joints on the ends so adjustment can be done without removing the link, just makes sense and is not strength issue. Whoever says different is trying to sell you their stuff or doesn't know what they're talking about. Make the arms the length they end up by positioning the mounts where they'll fit. A few inches difference in arm length doesn't matter. I'd recommend using the Synergy XJ control arm mounts from Poly Performance. I like that the LCA's are mounted inboard at the frame for better clearance and the brackets are made to go on an XJ. As far as link seperation on the axle, mount the lowers even with the axle, or close to it, and use an 8" tall UCA axle mount, that will be fine. Be sure you know your steering link positions and the coil seat position before you decide on what track bar axle mount to use. Most people move the spring seat back on the axle which gives you more room for the steering and track bar, and lets the axle move forward a few inches.

All for now, have fun.
^^^^

What he said.

Im using the Poly performance Synergy Control arm mounts and they are tits! Worth the 300 bucks and stiffen up that section of the rig. Just plate in front and back area.
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  #9  
Old March 6th, 2012, 21:19
jeepfreak1020 jeepfreak1020 is offline
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Re: 3 Link Build - Using Prefabbed Brackets?

Hey man shoot me a Pm if you want. I just did my home brew 3 link a few months back for the first time ever and it wasent that hard if you know what your doing. I pretty much did the exact same thing twodoorxj did to. Shoot me a PM man
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  #10  
Old March 6th, 2012, 21:35
psullivam psullivam is offline
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Re: 3 Link Build - Using Prefabbed Brackets?

hey jeep freak you want to post or send some pics of your track bar you set up? hows it drive on the road?
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  #11  
Old March 6th, 2012, 23:40
jeepfreak1020 jeepfreak1020 is offline
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Re: 3 Link Build - Using Prefabbed Brackets?

Well which set up would you like? When I did the build I had a D30 still in it. Now I have a D44 with crossover steering and a custom set up now
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Old March 7th, 2012, 16:20
twodoorXJ twodoorXJ is offline
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Re: 3 Link Build - Using Prefabbed Brackets?

I love the way this suspension performs, on and offroad.

Using prefabbed brackets saved me a lot of time, although i did have to modify the passenger side frame bracket a little, still easy stuff.

This was my first time building anything like this, im 19, have a decent welder (220v marquette), and general fab tools like a grinder, drill press etc. If i can do it im sure a lot of people can.

That being said, Im not sure if i would want to use a 110v welder for welding thick 1/4 brackets, every 110 ive used doesnt seem to penetrate well on 1/4 inch.
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Old March 7th, 2012, 17:00
chassellbandit chassellbandit is offline
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Re: 3 Link Build - Using Prefabbed Brackets?

ditto. getting ready to do mine as soon as i buy a welder. ruff stuff heims both ends, ballistic frame mounts, barnes axle mount (UCA) ruff stuff stiffeners. only disappointing thing is that ballistic mounts are 2 9/16, so you need the wide misalignment spacers or get the 1 1/4 heims. barnes axle mount is available either 2" or 2 9/16"
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Old March 7th, 2012, 19:42
Goatman's Avatar
Goatman Goatman is offline
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Re: 3 Link Build - Using Prefabbed Brackets?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chassellbandit View Post
ditto. getting ready to do mine as soon as i buy a welder. ruff stuff heims both ends, ballistic frame mounts, barnes axle mount (UCA) ruff stuff stiffeners. only disappointing thing is that ballistic mounts are 2 9/16, so you need the wide misalignment spacers or get the 1 1/4 heims. barnes axle mount is available either 2" or 2 9/16"

There are TONS of the standard 2 5/8" mounts and joints out there, stick to that.
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Old March 8th, 2012, 12:05
VAhasnoWAVES VAhasnoWAVES is offline
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Re: 3 Link Build - Using Prefabbed Brackets?

Quote:
Originally Posted by boostamante View Post
^^^^

What he said.

Im using the Poly performance Synergy Control arm mounts and they are tits! Worth the 300 bucks and stiffen up that section of the rig. Just plate in front and back area.
any problem using strait links with the synergy control arm mounts? i notice that their arms are bent, but i imagine that is for ground clerance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepfreak1020 View Post
Hey man shoot me a Pm if you want. I just did my home brew 3 link a few months back for the first time ever and it wasent that hard if you know what your doing. I pretty much did the exact same thing twodoorxj did to. Shoot me a PM man
ill hit ya up if i need somethign specific. thanks!
Quote:
Originally Posted by twodoorXJ View Post
I love the way this suspension performs, on and offroad.

Using prefabbed brackets saved me a lot of time, although i did have to modify the passenger side frame bracket a little, still easy stuff.

This was my first time building anything like this, im 19, have a decent welder (220v marquette), and general fab tools like a grinder, drill press etc. If i can do it im sure a lot of people can.

That being said, Im not sure if i would want to use a 110v welder for welding thick 1/4 brackets, every 110 ive used doesnt seem to penetrate well on 1/4 inch.
i have a 220 stick welder, but its not in working order. the other fab tools i have access to are grinder, acetaline torch, drill press and 20 ton press, and a metal lathe once i get it up and running. im just lacking in the welder department... as you said, it was your first time. this will be my first build to this extent. im usually quick learner.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goatman View Post
There are TONS of the standard 2 5/8" mounts and joints out there, stick to that.
that was one thing i was noticing out there. i had intended to stay with 25/8 for heims, or standard johnys.
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