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Hybrid-exo cage questions and a possible "project thread"

bmyohn

bmyohn

NAXJA Forum User
Location
Lake Orion, MI
Hey all,

I am starting to plan out some ideas for a exo/hybrid cage for my XJ.

I am planning on using 1.5"x.120 DOM for the outer section of it. But I've also been reading that some people prefer 1.75"x.120 DOM.

What is everybody's recommendation for tubing size? Is 1.75" too big and heavy (this is my DD as well)

My buddy and i are planning on splitting the cost of a tubing bender as well. What benders do you guys use and recommend?

I believe he has a welder already lined up.

Thanks for your input and advice guys.

I will eventually try to post some ideas for what i want it to look like and where i will be putting tube. as well as how i plan on routing the tube around my snorkel
 
go with a jd2 model 3... they now include a handle and a degree ring
i would use 1.5 tube it will keep your body lines and it wont look goofy
heres a pic of a cage by my buddy tyler (Team Willys on NAXJA) from rocksolidfab in chattanooga, i would definently plan on rocker replacements to tie the cage to
DSC_8188.jpg

DSCF0258.jpg

DSCF0259.jpg

DSCF0264.jpg

DSCF0266.jpg

theres also an interior component with a harness bar that allows full front seat motion, and full use of the back seat, and the interior and exterior peices both tie to the rockers, this jeep is also a daily driver ;)
 
Last edited:
aparke4 said:
wow - great looking exo!!!
Click to expand...

yeah its a dd'able tank ;) Tyler does great work, i figured it would be some good inspiration, the rocker replacemants are 2x8x3/16 the tube is 1.5" .120 wall. in a different application the front fender work can be run inside the fender and out the front clip to the bumper, but Jarrad wanted the jeep to be as un-dentable as possible.
 
that does look really cool! i was hoping i could figure out a way to tie them into my AJs Super Square rails, as they are already welded to the frame.

i definetly like the design of that roof though. ill keep that in mind
 
i was thinking of running the front exterior A-pillar bar down the a-pillar and through the cowl (between the center section of the cowl and the fender to compensate for my snorkel) then possible tying that section of the roll bar into the "frame", but then i would need to have some sort of "stiffiner" setup integrated as well to offer some support.

ill have to get on paint and try to visualize what i'm talking about haha
 
If you search "NWHBC Cage" you will find a link to my cage and details.

A few thoughts on the subject.
1. 1.5" vs. 1.75" You should be able to get a reasonably idea of the dif in weight and cost with a reasonably estimate of how much material you will need for the cage. In my mind the added strength of the 1.75 was well worth it particularly since none of the tube is in the way of any people (well placed) and since it is a "Hybrid" cage the added strength is important to me due to the compromises in the strength of the cage (if I had done a standard internal I probably would have done 1.5" tube).

2. You need to make sure that the entire cage works well together to provide as much strength as possible to the entire system. Just because it looks cool, doesn't make it stronge. If you don't have any structural engineering experience or previouse cage design, try to talk to as many people as possible who do!!!!

3. My bender is a Pro Tools 105, manual. Welder is a Miller 175 mig.

4. Tie in's to the frame are REALLY important!!!! If this is not done well the rest of the cage won't do you much good at all.

5. The snorkle should be worked around the cage. NOT the cage worked around the snorkle.

Hope this provides some ideas, comments that help you with planning/execution.

Michael
 
thanks michael. that does help a lot!

i have a fairly good idea of how im going to mount the cage to the "frame" using cruzin illusions idea with c-channel. how else do you recommend doing this?

this is the main part of the cage design i am having trouble wrapping my head around, how to bring the corner of the rooftop down the a-pillar

020.jpg


how do i route the a-pillar down on the inside of the snorkel.

i am attempting to use paint to think up some ideas which i will try my best to post soon.

care to share some ideas for this part?
 
this is sort of what i was leaning towards attempting.

exocorner.jpg


then i would try to bring the tubing down through the cowl and tie it into the unibody
 
I would search as much as you can on the tie-in's. Jeremy's info in my thread was also excellent with photo's. what is important is that all of the stresses of a rollover are transfered to the entire cage together and to the "frame", the more you can distribute the loads the better it will hold up.

bmyohn said:
this is sort of what i was leaning towards attempting.

exocorner.jpg


then i would try to bring the tubing down through the cowl and tie it into the unibody
Click to expand...

If it were mine, I would remove the snorkle and build the cage as tight as you can on the outside of the "A" pillar (as you have pictured). Then I would try to fit the snorkle back on as you have it mounted as best you can. It may take some tweeking, but you should be able to make it work and keep it nice and clean as long as you take your time and don't rush the process.

I assume you still want access to your front windshield? I bent my "A" pillars to keep it as tight as possible and still be able to remove/install the windshield.

Your plan is good, the execution is what seperates the men from the boys (it is not an easy process, the cleaner you want it to be the more time it takes to make it fit right) Your snorkle won't make it easier, but it should be doable.

Michael
 
Thanks Michael, that does help a lot!

What i was also brainstorming is possibly just routing the "A" pillar on the interior rather then on the outside of the a-pillar. would that sort of defeat the purpose of a "halo" type design on the roof? is the a-pillar on the exterior important to the full design of this type of cage?

(i hope that makes sense)

-Brendan
 
bmyohn said:
Thanks Michael, that does help a lot!

What i was also brainstorming is possibly just routing the "A" pillar on the interior rather then on the outside of the a-pillar. would that sort of defeat the purpose of a "halo" type design on the roof? is the a-pillar on the exterior important to the full design of this type of cage?

(i hope that makes sense)

-Brendan
Click to expand...

There are two primary advantages to a hybrid in my mind. 1 is you keep all of the tube away from the passengers as much as possible (out of the way, less likely to hit yourself on it, not a pain to get in and out, etc). The second is the tree sliders down the gutters (I use mine ALL of the time).

Personally I am not a huge advocate of halo's to start with (they are not the optimum design for most cages in my mind) and I would NEVER consider a exterior halo and interior "A" pillar due to strength. IF you want to move the "A" pillar inside I would build a more traditional internal cage. It can provide TONS of strength and can be made very accesible as long as it is done well. It can also provide plenty of protection for the vehicle if it is built well (rally cars are continually wrecked and rebuilt around there cages with internal cages as an example).

Obviously there are advantages for each. I would recommend you sit down and very clearly understand what you want from your cage and list them with priorities. Then you can build a cage that best matches what your priorities are.

Michael
 
gotcha, thanks michael

After looking at my snorkel and the a-pillar i think there is a possibility i can route the tubing around the head of the snorkel and then run the tube basically on top of the snorkel and down the fender.

then my next set of questions is about the "D" pillar. After looking at Erics cage build he did not put in a "D" pillar support from the rear corner of the roof down. instead he ran a piece of tube from the c pillar down to the rear of the jeep.

Does adding a D-pillar support add a considerable amount of strenth to the rear of the jeep in the even of a roll, especially in the even of a "flop"

Sorry for all the questions, im just trying to retain as much information as possible

Brendan
 
Crash has internal A-pillars and an external halo. It's a fine way to do it, still gives head room, just not as easy to tie in the front end and not as much knee room.



But I think you should just toss the snorkel anyhow.
 
Phil said:
Crash has internal A-pillars and an external halo. It's a fine way to do it, still gives head room, just not as easy to tie in the front end and not as much knee room.



But I think you should just toss the snorkel anyhow.
Click to expand...


well after swamping my motor twice, and then putting in a brand new stroker. im going to keep the snorkel as a safety percaution, and i like it alot! so its most likely going to stay
 
1.5" is strong enough based on the cage design. As has been discussed many times before, XJ's hold up reasonably well to rollovers without a cage, so it doesn't take a whole lot of cage to make them "safe". Both my XJ's cage and the buggy are made of 1.5" and both have been over multiple times with no issues. The vast majority of rock buggies are made out of 1.5" tube.

Cage design is the real important thing, just think in terms of lines of force at the most likely stress/impact points, and build it so tube runs from those points to strong nodes or to the floor. I don't think frame tie ins are as critical as some think, since the XJ is a uniframe vehicle anyway, so the cage is simply adding to the existing structure. I tied the A pillar to the side of the cowl and the B and C pillars to the shoulder harness bolts, sort of unitizing the whole cage to the existing structure. This also helps the rigidity which is part of the reason for the cage. I don't see a problem fitting the A pillars inside of the snorkel, sure a little more work but it sure looks doable.

No need to over complicate a cage. If you think in terms of adding rigidity and reasonable body protection (halo and exterior A pillars), you'll end up with a cage that is plenty safe for the passengers as long as you keep the tubes away from their heads.
 
Goatman said:
1.5" is strong enough based on the cage design. As has been discussed many times before, XJ's hold up reasonably well to rollovers without a cage, so it doesn't take a whole lot of cage to make them "safe". Both my XJ's cage and the buggy are made of 1.5" and both have been over multiple times with no issues. The vast majority of rock buggies are made out of 1.5" tube.

Cage design is the real important thing, just think in terms of lines of force at the most likely stress/impact points, and build it so tube runs from those points to strong nodes or to the floor. I don't think frame tie ins are as critical as some think, since the XJ is a uniframe vehicle anyway, so the cage is simply adding to the existing structure. I tied the A pillar to the side of the cowl and the B and C pillars to the shoulder harness bolts, sort of unitizing the whole cage to the existing structure. This also helps the rigidity which is part of the reason for the cage. I don't see a problem fitting the A pillars inside of the snorkel, sure a little more work but it sure looks doable.

No need to over complicate a cage. If you think in terms of adding rigidity and reasonable body protection (halo and exterior A pillars), you'll end up with a cage that is plenty safe for the passengers as long as you keep the tubes away from their heads.
Click to expand...


Thanks Goatman,

I am thinking that the easiest way to deal with the A-pillar would be to run it on the inside of the snrokel down through the cowl/inner fender and tie it in to the frame stiffiners. I feel like for my situation that this will be the best way to do it.

For the d-pillar is it stronger to include a d-pillar support down to the rear of the trunk, or to do what eric did and include a c-pillar support behind the rear seats and run tube down to the rear of the trunk at a 45* angle. are both equally as strong?

thanks guys.

-Brendan
 
Doesn't really matter, the deciding factor would be do you want to protect the rear of your roof from caving in if you rolled. Safety for passengers is a given, so then how much protection for the body do you want.
 
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