XJ frame stiffeners

[2offroad]

XJ chassis/frame stiffeners. i read about this in 4wheel & off-road, is this a good idea or snake oil?

http://www.tandjperformance.com/products-bpp-xj-chassiskit.htm

[ChuckD]

It's a good mod, but you can do the same with 3x4x3/16" angle. Email GaryE, maybe he can send you some pics. The angle should cost you leass than $50. He said he lost a lot of those strange flexing noises after doing it.

[Ted Z]

i was thinkin of fabbing some sort of stiffeners also.....

[atowley]

I fabbed mine up. 3x3xquarter inch angle iron. Runs on both sides from old lCA mount's to the rear leaf spring perch. Looks great and works awsome too.

[MaXJohnson]

IMO,this would provide excellent protection for rock damage to your uni-rails, but marginal increase in chassis strength.

YMMV

[mark91xjbeef]

i made mine this week. i used 1.5 x.120 thick steel tubing and they make a difference. it is nice to have a stiff frame again.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid67/p6daeb7bfc0779e46899e4137e5e3323e/fbc68084.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid67/p77d8fa4691173c7d2afea0c2a543dc22/fbc67f9b.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid67/pd942aae155363608f2e21abf4f4d10fa/fbc67ec9.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid67/p3052e70613eb481460e9e254a9fa535e/fbc67dcf.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid67/p44c4eaf75cce9411a6305bc973510f34/fbc67bd4.jpg

[gearwhine]

I like what you made there mark, very close to what I have seen on some of the jeep speed jeeps with the drop brackets. I definitely like it to stiffen up the drop brackets, but would think that it dones't stiffen the frame up much. Maybe some cross braces between the long tubing and the frame could do a bit more. Seem worthwhile to me if you're not into going for a full cage. _nicko_

[mark91xjbeef]

it actually did stiffen the frame up. when i drove to work today i noticed a lot less body roll almost none when rounding corners. next i want to make cross braces and tie it all together when i make my cage.

[robs]

Mark... That's AWESOME!!

I'm building some of those too!

[Bent]

I understand the idea behind the angle, and agree with protecting the "frame"rails. Would somebody please explain the thinking behind the tube set up?

[Goatman]

The JeepSpeed guys like those frame stiffeners, so they must work. I would have never come up with that design, but it does tie the front and rear suspension mounts together with a length of tubing that has to twist......something that tube doesn't do very well. It also adds strength to the suspension mounts, which has to be a good thing, and boxes the frame more by adding some additional structure.

I've learned the hard way that we need to add some steel to the bottom of the frame rails, before they get caved in by rocks. A simple piece of steel strap welded along the bottom, or a big piece of angle iron, will do the trick. I wonder how much the angle iron will add to the stiffness, unless it's very thick and wide....and heavy. Normally something made of tubing will provide more resistance to flexing, either square or round.

I made frame stiffeners out of 1x3 boxed tubing, spaced out from the frame by a short length of the 1x3 at each end. The seat bolts where in the way of mounting it flush to the frame, and it didn't fit very well with the slight curve in the frame and floor pan. By spacing it out, it cleared the bolts and fit nicely to the shape. Plus, the one inch gap adds more boxing to the frame and makes it stiffer than if the 1x3 was mounted flush along the side of the frame.

Of course, the cage helped stiffen things up also, but I think the frame stiffeners helped as much as the cage. You know how you can wrap your hand around the top of your door and the roof, and feel how much the door moves relative to the roof when driving on a trail or rough road? Now, mine doesn't move....AT ALL! :)

[mark91xjbeef]

i just got home from work and man that was a nice ride. the stiffeners took a lot of the shock out of the body. normal bumps i would feel coming home i did not notice. i got to say that might be one of my best mods yet just by the fact that the suspension does the work now and not the body flexing to help it. :D :D

[KarmirXJ]

Does anybody have any pics of their fabbed angle stiffiners? Im thinking of stiffing up the frame and add a roll cage. But I need some ideas. any pics would help. thanks

[mark]

more info about angler stiffeners and about the ones pitured above please

[anaheimxj]

does anyone have these on their xj in additon to rock rails?

it seems to me the stiffeners would have to be modified to fit?

I have a set of ORGS ' s rock rails and they would seem to blockthe run back to the leaf spring mounting point.

[macgyvr]

we used 3/16 flat by 4inches tall. using the plasma cutter we cut them to shape to box the frame from the control arm mouts all the way back to where the leaf spring mouts would be...if I had leaf springs. i have hand built rock rails welded to the boxed frame. i'm building my cage here in the next couple of weeks and i'm going to tie into the new 'frame' with the cage. the metal on the frame already strengthens it up quite a bit.

mac 'finally a cage' gyvr

[burntkat]

count me in for more info on these fabricated stiffeners, too. Anyone seen GaryE's job?

Going to fab some rails soon-- don't see why it would be very difficult to go ahead and design stiffeners into them

[Tom R.]

Originally posted by mark91xjbeef
i just got home from work and man that was a nice ride. the stiffeners took a lot of the shock out of the body. normal bumps i would feel coming home i did not notice. i got to say that might be one of my best mods yet just by the fact that the suspension does the work now and not the body flexing to help it. :D :D
Mark,

Have you considered marketing your design? How does your set up affect the placement of rock rails? Thanks,

Tom

[Rocky]

Did anyone see the article in this months 4WOR? They installed the T&J tube stiffeners and also a brand new product never before installed. It looks like 3/16" plate, formed nicely to copy the uni-body rail from the front leaf mount on the rear to the LCA mount on the front. They then stitch welded the two together to increase rigidity. They had nothing but good to say about the driving impressions after the install, nice stable handling, suspension seems to soak up bumps more smoothly. Don't know how it would work with my rock rails, but we'll soon see!

[gixer]

I have a set of rock rails that have out riggers to the unibody frame. I was thinkiing of running a tube from the front and back to each leg then a tube between the legs. So it would then tie the front and back together plus the legs go to the unibody frame then out the the rock rails that are atached to the pinch seam. That should make a nice and solid set up dont ya think?

[Ricardo]

Does anybody have any pics of their fabbed angle stiffiners? Im thinking of stiffing up the frame and add a roll cage. But I need some ideas. any pics would help. thanks


Hey!
if you get some pics could you send to me? ricardolorca_9@hotmail.com

[XJEEPER]

IMO,this would provide excellent protection for rock damage to your uni-rails, but marginal increase in chassis strength.

YMMV

Theory VS Real World Experience?

BTW.....this thread is worthless without more pictures!

[MaXJohnson]

"Originally Posted by MaXJohnson IMO,this would provide excellent protection for rock damage to your uni-rails, but marginal increase in chassis strength. YMMV"

Theory VS Real World Experience?



"IMO" acronymically speaking, translates to "In My opinion". In this case, my opinion based on theory. The design of every aspect of your Jeep, down to the smallest detail, was based on theory. "YMMV" or "Your Mileage May Vary" acknowledges my view may not hold true for all cases and variations in design.

In the case of the T&J chassis stiffeners, I believe their main design goal was to strengthen the front suspension control arm mounts by spreading the load further back into the chassis. The purpose of this is to resist impact loads on the control arm pickup points. The benefit of this to a JeepSpeed racer should be obvious. Many of the comments in this thread relate to increases to the beam strength of the frame rails and overall torsional stiffeness. I would argue that improvements in these areas are minimal.

For "Real World Experience", AKA "the Butt Dyno", there are several responses in this thread claiming dramatic improvement in ride and handling, including less body roll (?) when cornering and a softer ride (?).

IMO, Butt Dyno's have a high degree of error.
YMMV

[danny boy]

agreed, butt dynos have high rates of error. but when something works, it works.

i got those tandj stiffeners a while back before i started making my own stuff. they do work and you will see (and feel:)) a difference.

however, if you can make them, do. as they are pretty pricey.

finally, as well as the stiffeners work, they could be better. i am planning on making rock rails that tie into them and then creating at least one cross member to tie them together. i also plan on tieing them to my front and rear bumpers in a pseudo-exo cage type thing. the stiffeners alone have reduced a lot of flex in the unibody, but i feel that with this arrangement, i will be rock solid!

just my .02

dan f.

[marcusguy]

http://www.4wdandsportutility.com/features/02074wd_jeep/

Here's a quick write up on the T&J Jeepspeed racer. There is a photo taken from up under the back where you can see that they not only run the stiffeners on the outside of the frame, but also on the inside with cross connectors when possible. This goes all the way to the front of the Jeep.

[MaXJohnson]

That picture of the rear is a sweet setup. Full length tubes with numerous tie-ins to the existing rails as well as to the roll cage, extra cross members & diagonal bracing. An E-ticket ride for sure.

[93xjmark]

These are really nice......
http://www.detoursusa.com/xjunireinforcer.html
Chassis stiffeners and rock rails built into one system. :thumbup:

[XJEEPER]

"IMO" acronymically speaking, translates to "In My opinion". In this case, my opinion based on theory. The design of every aspect of your Jeep, down to the smallest detail, was based on theory. "YMMV" or "Your Mileage May Vary" acknowledges my view may not hold true for all cases and variations in design.

In the case of the T&J chassis stiffeners, I believe their main design goal was to strengthen the front suspension control arm mounts by spreading the load further back into the chassis. The purpose of this is to resist impact loads on the control arm pickup points. The benefit of this to a JeepSpeed racer should be obvious. Many of the comments in this thread relate to increases to the beam strength of the frame rails and overall torsional stiffeness. I would argue that improvements in these areas are minimal.

For "Real World Experience", AKA "the Butt Dyno", there are several responses in this thread claiming dramatic improvement in ride and handling, including less body roll (?) when cornering and a softer ride (?).

IMO, Butt Dyno's have a high degree of error.
YMMV

What does "marginal" or "minimal" refer to? A percentage of improvement or change that you've measured? IMO, before one shares an opinion on a mod, it's best to have some first hand knowledge to base the opinion on. Without that, the opinion offered is without merit.
The Butt Dyno has a margin of error .....theory and speculation have a margin of error as well, both can be substantiated or disproved through real world testing. I'll take a Butt Dyno'd opinion over web wheeler theory anyday......YMMV.

When someone asks for an opinion, why confuse them with theory and speculation when there are many who have performed the mod and can share their real feedback?
My Mileage Does Vary.....that would be MMDV :D

[MaXJohnson]

What does "marginal" or "minimal" refer to?
On T&J's website, they claim their chassis stiffeners: "Dramatically increases frame rigidity". I don't believe that statement. In my context, marginal is the opposite of dramatic. Marginal and minimal refer to my accepting the fact that T&J's chassis stiffeners do add some strength, but only a small percentage of what is implied. What is a small percentage, you ask: how about 10% to 20% (my opinion). Once again, I think these stiffeners would help strengthen the front control arms mounts(my opinion again :) )


... there are many who have performed the mod and can share their real feedback?
I count one guy in this thread who actually owns T&J chassis stiffeners and one other with home built copies. Both seem to feel they make a difference, but in defiance of your rules, no measurements are provided. Three others have plated their frames with angle iron and seem to think that makes a difference as well. Again, no measurements are provided. Richards response, as usual, is probably the most informative with some opinions on the subject and information on his own mods and the degree they reduced movement between door and body structure. Not exactly a measurement, but revealing non the less.


When someone asks for an opinion, why confuse them with theory ...
I chuckle every time I read that line. You're welcome to ignore theory and get sucked up into the world of the Butt Dyno. I'm willing to consider both and will continue to offer theory and my opinion. That's what forums are all about.

[XJEEPER]

On T&J's website, they claim their chassis stiffeners: "Dramatically increases frame rigidity". I don't believe that statement. In my context, marginal is the opposite of dramatic. Marginal and minimal refer to my accepting the fact that T&J's chassis stiffeners do add some strength, but only a small percentage of what is implied. What is a small percentage, you ask: how about 10% to 20% (my opinion). Once again, I think these stiffeners would help strengthen the front control arms mounts(my opinion again :) )



I count one guy in this thread who actually owns T&J chassis stiffeners and one other with home built copies. Both seem to feel they make a difference, but in defiance of your rules, no measurements are provided. Three others have plated their frames with angle iron and seem to think that makes a difference as well. Again, no measurements are provided. Richards response, as usual, is probably the most informative with some opinions on the subject and information on his own mods and the degree they reduced movement between door and body structure. Not exactly a measurement, but revealing non the less.



I chuckle every time I read that line. You're welcome to ignore theory and get sucked up into the world of the Butt Dyno. I'm willing to consider both and will continue to offer theory and my opinion. That's what forums are all about.

So 10-20% isn't enough of an improvement to be worth the mod?

If someone offered you 10-20% of $1,000,000.00, would you take it? How about a 10-20% increase in fuel economy? ;)

What % equals dramatic? I know, I know.....IYO.

I'm not ignoring theory, it's the basis for anything ever created. Everything I've fabbed started out as theory. As you've pointed out, without actual measured results, the most credible sources of opinion are those that have actually applied their theories. You've done a fine job qualifying your opinion. IMO, I'll rate it as marginal........and don't worry about me getting sucked into anything that even remotely resembles a butt.......... :laugh:

[Jes]

Damn, that's some funny shit. :)

[2offroad]

what drug this back up?

[woody]

what drug this back up?


Beats me, but while we're there...

I'd wonder where all the deflected energy is sent.

If it's dispersed from the LCA brackets to the unirails through 'stiffening,' does the stiffeners become the shunt?

Or does the otherwise stock body/frame crack up like a yummy lobster's shell, sooner rather than later?

Not that it matters, XJ bodies are disposable.

[MaXJohnson]

Beats me, but while we're there...

I'd wonder where all the deflected energy is sent.



with a tinfoil hat, the deflected energy shouldn't be a problem

[Buck Jackson]

with a tinfoil hat, the deflected energy shouldn't be a problem
Here's a great link to building your own AFDB (aluminum foil deflector beanie):
http://zapatopi.net/afdb.html#BUILD
Enjoy,
Buck :canada:

[XJWheelie]

Is it possble to make an XJ chassis too stiff? I realize that while a less stiff chassis will flex more and may be more desirable in that regard it could also mean that the metal will become fatigued and crack or break.

I did like the combination rock rail/unibody stiffener. Now I'm hating that I've already got some serious rock rails installed. I guess I could make up for that with a proper rollcage and a little welding on the unibody though.

Robert

[Hammertoe]

Jeepspeed & "Rockspeed"= what...maybe 3mph, are 2 different things all
together. Jeepspeed offers a pcs of tube you weld to your unibody and bolt
to existing connections and thats it......for $295.00 plus shipping......Its a pcs
of round tubing, and thats it......if your doin rock & not sand at high speeds..
..its 2 different worlds, rocker gaurds are'nt even considered with that
configuration........If your into rocks & wheelin...take a second look at the
product offered by Detoursusa.com , I've seen and have drivin XJ's with this
product on the XJ and it works beyond well, I've heard comments like "That
thing did'nt creak at all" goin over that obstical......and that was the bolt on
version I was driving! Basically, its a damn good part which includes rock rails
for just a few bucks more than the T&J part........plus, they were installed
without using a jack or lifting any part of my Jeep, in my driveway! Side by
side construction/installation which runs parallel with the unibody also
offers additional protection to the unibody itself!!

Worth checkin out!!! :greensmok

[jjvande]

i cant tell from the pics...do those cover teh side and bottom of the frame?, or all three sides?


is sleeving(outer) the uni with tubing cut in half basically the same?

i was thinking of welding a set of rocker guards up to the side of the sleeved "frame" and running some tubes across the inner part of the frame , like an X(not sure if it would fit). rocker guards would be bolted full length to the pintch seam and connected to the rear leaf mounting bolt/pocket. someone's already done this im sure

someone needs to make a laser cut and formed stiffener that fits the unibody up tight, is welded on, and is full length.

I think one main thing with chassis stiffening is connecting and beefing up all suspension mounts, aside from a full cage.

[Gym_Floor]

I'm new here and I just registered just to help you guys out, I found a page to get Jeep Cherokee stiffeners for your subframe. I got them on my Jeep and love them. Here's the site: http://www.tandjperformance.com/products-bpp.htm
Hope this helps

[OT]

I'm new here and I just registered just to help you guys out, I found a page to get Jeep Cherokee stiffeners for your subframe. I got them on my Jeep and love them. Here's the site: http://www.tandjperformance.com/products-bpp.htm
Hope this helps
Thanks for going through the trouble of registering to let us know about something we've known about for years.
If you'd have checked NAXJA first, you could have probably found a better deal than you got from T&J.
No offense......

[IcedXJ]

Thanks for going through the trouble of registering to let us know about something we've known about for years.
If you'd have checked NAXJA first, you could have probably found a better deal than you got from T&J.
No offense......

hahahaha

[Starscream]

I'm new here and I just registered just to help you guys out, I found a page to get Jeep Cherokee stiffeners for your subframe. I got them on my Jeep and love them. Here's the site: http://www.tandjperformance.com/products-bpp.htm
Hope this helps
That looks just like the link on the first page of this ancient thread. :confused1

[OT]

http://media.shtoink.com/media/pics.funny/warez_xp_cd.jpg

[Starscream]

http://media.shtoink.com/media/pics.funny/warez_xp_cd.jpg
Nice.

[mark91xjbeef]

3 years 500+ pounds of steel. she don't look like that anymore
someone kill this old thread:firedevil

[bobnoxious]

I'm new here and I just registered just to help you guys out, I found a page to get Jeep Cherokee stiffeners for your subframe. I got them on my Jeep and love them. Here's the site: http://www.tandjperformance.com/products-bpp.htm
Hope this helps

That's funny stuff right there:passgas:

Some people just don't get it:doh:

[imma honky]

http://media.shtoink.com/media/pics.funny/warez_xp_cd.jpg
That is the same copy ive been using.....

[Bent]

There's a new version of windows coming out in July?

[Starscream]

There's a new version of windows coming out in July?
No?

[JEONLYEP]

There's a new version of windows coming out in July?
Ya, on Oct 25th 2001... That's about as new as this thread....

DAryl

[Bent]

No?

Ya, on Oct 25th 2001... That's about as new as this thread....

DAryl

Not much gets by you two, does it?





























Well...





















... unless it's moving.


:D

[2offroad]

why is this still going on?

[Bent]

why is this still going on?
It's not my fault, it was lurking in the Den.

[HandBuiltXJ]

i heard that the toyota fj was coming out with some rock rail sliders in the aftermarket, i believe they are made out of popsickle sticks, just think of the weight savings.

FJ = F&*%%ing Joke

have a nice day

[gorilla_skater]

I see a lot of replies regarding compatibility with Rock Rails. You have to check out the Rock Rail Chassis stiffener from Detours USA. There is no doubt that one of the three combos will do you right. They're definitely on my list of upgrades...

http://www.detoursusa.com/xjrokslyders.php

[JEONLYEP]

Not much gets by you two, does it?

Well...

... unless it's moving.

:D
I'll show YOU moving......


































HEHEHEHEHE

































:D

DAryl

[2offroad]

You can close this thread, my XJ already has a 1"+ bow in the center so frame stiffeners will not do me any good.

[JEONLYEP]

You can close this thread, my XJ already has a 1"+ bow in the center so frame stiffeners will not do me any good.
Mine did too, that's why after the body shop pulled it back to straight, I put on the stiffeners....

DAryl