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asymptonic
November 12th, 2017, 16:12
Okay, so what I thought was lifter tick clearly isn't. MMO spraydown did nothing, and on a long drive today I'm noticing the slap doesn't quiet down after warmup any more, at least on one cylinder. Recent oil change w/ Rotella T6 5w40 and a new Wix 51515 filter didn't seem to help with startup clatter either, though I'm unsure whether it made the always-clattering cylinder start or get worse.

Question is: How long should I run like this? Should I be looking to get the engine rebuilt soon? 192k at this point.

blakews2217
November 12th, 2017, 16:42
What year / motor? The easy answer is not at all until you get it rebuilt. But as for my meaningless opinion are you sure itís piston slap? Either Iíve been away too long and gotten too lucky to have a 365k 4.0 Jeep going with more lifter tick than I thought it could make or Iím a dummy. Either way I have early heard of what some perceive to be piston slap actually be piston slap. If it is then it should be hurting valves and piston faces along with leaving a funny pattern in the crank/ rod bearings.


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asymptonic
November 12th, 2017, 20:27
Motor was in the signature, '98 4.0. If not piston slap, what would rattle heated up? Plenty noticeable at idle, and through maybe 1200rpm. Above that not sure if its going away or just inaudible above engine noise.

To clarify, its a consistent single clack per fire on whatever cylinder is doing it. A lot of clatter cold but only one once warmed up.

blakews2217
November 13th, 2017, 15:57
Motor was in the signature, '98 4.0. If not piston slap, what would rattle heated up? Plenty noticeable at idle, and through maybe 1200rpm. Above that not sure if its going away or just inaudible above engine noise.

To clarify, its a consistent single clack per fire on whatever cylinder is doing it. A lot of clatter cold but only one once warmed up.



Sorry. Iím using Tapatalk so I donít see signatures but I wish I did. As for the rattle where about the motor does it sound like itís coming from? Front? Back? Top? Bottom? Does it sound more like a knock? If itís at the exact time every fire Iíd be more curious about a bent push rod. If you can pull the plugs and shine a light down in the hole and look at the top of the Pistons. If you canít see one use a ratchet and socket to turn the motor. If you donít see whiteness marks from the valves touching then Iíd almost rule out piston slap. What tells you itís worn? Low compression?


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asymptonic
November 13th, 2017, 18:25
Sorry. Iím using Tapatalk so I donít see signatures but I wish I did. As for the rattle where about the motor does it sound like itís coming from? Front? Back? Top? Bottom? Does it sound more like a knock? If itís at the exact time every fire Iíd be more curious about a bent push rod. If you can pull the plugs and shine a light down in the hole and look at the top of the Pistons. If you canít see one use a ratchet and socket to turn the motor. If you donít see whiteness marks from the valves touching then Iíd almost rule out piston slap. What tells you itís worn? Low compression?


Definitely a clack/clatter not a knock. Seems to be louder on the bottom, maybe. Sound is somewhere between cyl 3 and 5. It does seem to be the same time each fire but random loudness. I'll try to get a look when I have some free time, which is rare.

Several cylinders rattle at cold start, but it quiets down to just the one when hot.

No compression test yet, just trying to narrow down this increasingly loud clatter.

blakews2217
November 13th, 2017, 19:55
Definitely a clack/clatter not a knock. Seems to be louder on the bottom, maybe. Sound is somewhere between cyl 3 and 5. It does seem to be the same time each fire but random loudness. I'll try to get a look when I have some free time, which is rare.

Several cylinders rattle at cold start, but it quiets down to just the one when hot.

No compression test yet, just trying to narrow down this increasingly loud clatter.



I know the feeling. Iím chasing DW down with seemingly no end. If looking in the spark plug holes shows no answers Iíd suspect a lifter/ pushrod/ flattened lobe. Probably a ticky lifter. Can you get a vid? Iíve had my dads jeep run from 155k to 375 k with lots of lifter clatter. Sounded like a diesel at the end. Then someone ran it down in it off street parking and totaled it. But it still fired right up to drive away to the scrap yard.


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asymptonic
November 14th, 2017, 08:46
Yeah, I'll grab a video of the sound this afternoon.

asymptonic
November 14th, 2017, 15:13
Okay, here is a video of it. Not that helpful I think. The noise isn't as pronounced as this video makes it seem, I think the camera was too close to the engine. It does seem like the noise goes away at high enough RPM however.

https://youtu.be/3JKNCib2-Rk?t=48

Watched some videos of other Jeeps w/ lifter tick, and this one has a very similar noise which he attributed to the lifters:

https://youtu.be/29I5fNAv-8M?t=77

themauler
November 14th, 2017, 15:54
Are you the original owner of the jeep? Luckily for us jeepers the 4.0 is damn tough. Just keep changing the oil and drive on. If you can afford to do a full tear down and rebuild do it. If it makes you feel better my grand cherokee 4.0 makes awful noise lifter/piston related. That was over 30,000 miles ago. Just keep changing the oil. Engine runs like normal besides the noise.

Like I said if you have money then tear it down and do a full rebuild. In my experience, at this point nothing in a bottle you can pour in the case is going to make that noise go away.

old_man
November 14th, 2017, 16:15
First off lets verify what cylinder(s)

Pull one spark plug at a time and listen to the noise. It should either get worse or better on the offending cylinder(s).

Personally I would never run 5w anything in a 4.0L. Since your option is a rebuild, I would do a change to 15w40 Rotella and see if it quiets down. It is cheap diagnostic step. Don't bother changing the filter.

asymptonic
November 14th, 2017, 16:55
Are you the original owner of the jeep? Luckily for us jeepers the 4.0 is damn tough. Just keep changing the oil and drive on. If you can afford to do a full tear down and rebuild do it. If it makes you feel better my grand cherokee 4.0 makes awful noise lifter/piston related. That was over 30,000 miles ago. Just keep changing the oil. Engine runs like normal besides the noise.

Like I said if you have money then tear it down and do a full rebuild. In my experience, at this point nothing in a bottle you can pour in the case is going to make that noise go away.

Yeah, I'm it for the owner, so its never seen maintenance abuse at least. I probably can afford the teardown, but I have some road trips coming up that are in the way. If she won't die on those I'll might take care of it after the holidays.

asymptonic
November 14th, 2017, 16:56
First off lets verify what cylinder(s)

Pull one spark plug at a time and listen to the noise. It should either get worse or better on the offending cylinder(s).

Personally I would never run 5w anything in a 4.0L. Since your option is a rebuild, I would do a change to 15w40 Rotella and see if it quiets down. It is cheap diagnostic step. Don't bother changing the filter.

Interesting, I would have expected thinner oil at start would improve startup lubrication. Too thin at cold temps?

Also, pull the spark boot while the engine's running one cylinder at a time?

Rockwood
November 16th, 2017, 14:44
Every damned 4.0L I've heard has that same noise, to some extent. Sounds like an older Mercedes diesel. The valvetrain on these motors isn't the quietest...

As long as it's not coming from the front end (chain issue) or the bottom (rod knock), I'd leave it be.

RCP Phx
November 16th, 2017, 18:03
A lot of the so-called lifter tick is caused by the fact that it is a non-adjustable valve train. I seen horrible rocker arm/pivot wear that no ever does anything about it! My stroker is a quiet as a "church mouse"!

Rob Mayercik
November 16th, 2017, 20:49
Interesting, I would have expected thinner oil at start would improve startup lubrication. Too thin at cold temps?

You know, I am wondering about that too. I have on occasion considered switching my '92 over to the same diesel-rated 5w40 full synthetic I use in my VW TDI, would have thought the same thing as asymptonic - with slightly thinner at startup it would help with cold startup wear. Of course, I immediately follow that thought with "it's gone 255K miles on non-synth and seems to be running solid/strong, why mess with success?" so I've not actually gone beyond an occasional random notion.

Old_Man, would you care to expand a little on why you don't like the idea of 5wXX in the 4.0?

Ecomike
November 18th, 2017, 15:37
I switched to 20W50 13 years ago on all my rigs, Renix 4.0s, Saturn 2001 and a beat to death 96 Ford Vulcan 3.0, and on the Renix 4.0 Wagoneer I also added 1 quart of Lucas for 7-8 years. It has about 297,000 miles now. Had 224,000 when I bought. It sounded like it was about to grenade on me a few times in cold winter start ups, but over time I found many rare, problem issues that I fixed and now, most of the time it is quite as a church mouse. I do still rev it up to 3500 to 4500 rpm to force the lifters to rotate again if one tries to start sticking again. Takes all of 10 seconds to unstick it now doing the high rpm trick. Have you tried the high rpm trick at all yet? I read you tried the MMO soak. Sorry to hear that did not work.

Issues mine had were worn valve guides on 2 cylinders ( I replaced the valve seals, but the guides are still badly worn on those two) that were fouling 2 plugs, so I switched plugs to the hotter stock style NGK plugs (that made an enormous difference), then early this year it got so bad it reached a no start condition. Just before it died it took WOT to get it to stay running at 500 rpm while it bucked and back fired like crazy. When it died I was about to open her up when I discovered the Dizzy shaft gear that rides on the Cam had been getting loose as a thin roll pin that holds it in place began to shear. It finally sheared. New, indexed dizzy went in and it now runs better than ever. But I also did the MMO spray soak of the lifters with the valve cover off just before it died and that helped with the lifter tick at cold start up too. But now I wonder how long that distributor was giving me grief????

But If I were you, I would try some thick oil like 20W50, or add a quart of that molasses like-thick Lucas additive and see what it does.

I actually used 1 quart of MMO, plus 1 Quart of Lucas and 4 quarts of 20W50 for about 8 years on the noisy 87 Wagoneer XJ. It now runs on straight 20W50 and rarely makes any noise, except if it sits for a week and I cold start it at about <50 F temp. I live where the temps typically run 50-105 F.

One other thought, I never use any oil filter but the premium K&N oil filter as it seems to be the only one with a bullet proof, never fails anti drain back valve, and it keeps the oil filter full even siting upside down like the Renix 4.0s are. If the filter drains over night, you have no oil pressure on start up, which to put it mildly is no buneo LOL, for the lifters.

What is your oil pressure?
Have you tried the high RPM, rapid revving tricks yet?
It is known to force stuck lifters to start rotating again, and un-sticks them.
Check for any slop in the dizzy rotor shaft rotational play!!!
What are the tmps in your area? What oil was in it before?

I would never us a 5W-X oil in an old high mileage engine. Way too thin on start up for the 4.0, even new the oil spec was 10W30 even in cold country. Also look for signs of small amounts of gas in the oil, dilution thinning the oil, from missfires...

Ecomike
November 18th, 2017, 15:39
Interesting, I would have expected thinner oil at start would improve startup lubrication. Too thin at cold temps?

I totally agree!!! I think that made it worse in his case.

Also, pull the spark boot while the engine's running one cylinder at a time?

One last thought, that is about as noisy as mine ever got, but it never stayed that noisy all the time!!! Only on cold starts. A few times it was worse than your video, but it never stayed that bad for long. Once it warmed up and I revved the piss out of it, it would quite way down and sound like a sewing machine the rest of the day. Yours from the video sounds pretty loud, in fact I hear two different loud sounds. Is one a bearing noise under a third noise, on the front belt accessories??? Wish we had one of those sci-fi-spy-fbi.. noise analysis software gurus here that could isolate each noise and clear out the others so we could hear each pure noise. Where is Old_Man these days LOL. I wonder if they have free software for that nowadays??

Ecomike
November 18th, 2017, 15:53
Not an expert on it, but the 5W and 0W oils are designed for super tight tolerance engines that have too little bearing space for 10W oil to flow.
So with older larger gap bearing surface engines I would think the thinner oil would pass through the bearings to fast and leave them with too little oil in the actual critical locations.

If the oil pressure sensor senses pressure before the oil filter, you would get a false sense of adequate oil pressure in the bearings, etc., , when there is non or too little in the oil galleys, bearings...etc.

You know, I am wondering about that too. I have on occasion considered switching my '92 over to the same diesel-rated 5w40 full synthetic I use in my VW TDI, would have thought the same thing as asymptonic - with slightly thinner at startup it would help with cold startup wear. Of course, I immediately follow that thought with "it's gone 255K miles on non-synth and seems to be running solid/strong, why mess with success?" so I've not actually gone beyond an occasional random notion.

Old_Man, would you care to expand a little on why you don't like the idea of 5wXX in the 4.0?

asymptonic
November 19th, 2017, 16:08
I switched to 20W50 13 years ago on all my rigs, Renix 4.0s, Saturn 2001 and a beat to death 96 Ford Vulcan 3.0, and on the Renix 4.0 Wagoneer I also added 1 quart of Lucas for 7-8 years. It has about 297,000 miles now. Had 224,000 when I bought. It sounded like it was about to grenade on me a few times in cold winter start ups, but over time I found many rare, problem issues that I fixed and now, most of the time it is quite as a church mouse. I do still rev it up to 3500 to 4500 rpm to force the lifters to rotate again if one tries to start sticking again. Takes all of 10 seconds to unstick it now doing the high rpm trick. Have you tried the high rpm trick at all yet? I read you tried the MMO soak. Sorry to hear that did not work.

But If I were you, I would try some thick oil like 20W50, or add a quart of that molasses like-thick Lucas additive and see what it does.


Last oil change (before this one) was 10w30 w/ a quart of Lucas oil to deal with low oil pressure (just at spec on very hot idle). This one was 5w40 with a new filter, see below...



One other thought, I never use any oil filter but the premium K&N oil filter as it seems to be the only one with a bullet proof, never fails anti drain back valve, and it keeps the oil filter full even siting upside down like the Renix 4.0s are. If the filter drains over night, you have no oil pressure on start up, which to put it mildly is no buneo LOL, for the lifters.


Tried the K&N premium filter, which I recently saw a teardown on and while it has the good anti-drainback valve, has bad pleats and a cheap spring. This oil change I tried the Wix 51515 (theory being larger filter = less restricted flow). Whether its the W40 or the filter, I now have hot idles of 20psi, so great once again.


What is your oil pressure?
Have you tried the high RPM, rapid revving tricks yet?
It is known to force stuck lifters to start rotating again, and un-sticks them.
Check for any slop in the dizzy rotor shaft rotational play!!!
What are the tmps in your area? What oil was in it before?

1) 40psi non idle or cold, 20psi hot idle.
2) Yeah, though I *maybe* didn't hold RPM for very long. What's your idea on that?
3) I'll check, but apart from the clatter, there are no misfires or hesitancy on idle.
4) Texas, so 40-105, like yourself. Up until the last year (but after some light chatter had started), 10w30 dino.


I would never us a 5W-X oil in an old high mileage engine. Way too thin on start up for the 4.0, even new the oil spec was 10W30 even in cold country. Also look for signs of small amounts of gas in the oil, dilution thinning the oil, from missfires...

Again, that surprises me, but I can see how the low viscosity might not support the parts on cold. I may still have an engine guy take a look at it. The general clatter doesn't bother me on start, but the one cyl that won't set right even after a long drive (did 400mi this weekend and still clacked at idle).

Ecomike
November 19th, 2017, 18:08
When I first started using the high rpm trick to unstick the lifters, I used 3500 rpm and held it there for about 3 minutes, doing it only when the engine was fully heated up to operating temp.

I later upped that to 4000 then later 4500 rpm. At 4500 rpm it would take far less time for the engine go to silent (figuratively speaking), no lifter tick. It would take maybe 10 seconds, instead of 3 minutes!!!!

But mine had been run at under 1500 rpm for years with a bad TPS that never let if get over 1500 rpm till it hit 60 mph in 4th gear, that I am sure the engine had issues from not being opened up at high rpms, so I did not push my luck in the early days of pushing the unloaded RPMs over 3500. I used the engine noise as a guide as to high I could push the rpms in the early days. I learned the high rpm trick from an old timer here years ago, 5-90 was his alias. I was also told by my first mechanic mentor in the early 1970s of the need to open and rev engines to blow out and burn out carbon build up in the engines from heavy stop and go city driving, and keep the engine from developing wear and piston/cylinder wear memory issues from not pushing the engines hard once in a while.. Long story there...

Now it only takes 5-10 seconds at 3500 rpm to stop the lifter noise, when it decides to flare up on a cold morning start. But I do like to run it up to 4500 after the tick stops, or if it is slow to stop. One other thing I have noticed is that stomping on the gas to rev it as fast as possible seems to work faster. My suspect is that rapid momentum shift throws the lifters back to rotating faster, easier to force them to rotate with the cam lobes slapping the lifter harder on rapid acceleration and decel cycling.

The lifter faces and the cam lobes are not perfectly flat, they have a slight angle on the faces designed to force the lifters to rotate. If they get stuck from varnish, carbon, gum deposit build up, the lack of rotation makes them noisy. This is different from a collapsed lifter. I am under the impression a collapsed lifter does not open the valves all the way, and would likely be obvious on visual inspection on the engine running with the valve cover off.

BTW, I recall using MMO, and PB blaster on my exposed valves and lifters when I had the valve cover off, but that was after years of using the high RPM trick to stop the sticking noisy lifters before I drove the jeep daily for 70,000 miles the last 13 years. I am not using just 20W50 Supertech Walmart oil, no additives.

Opps, forgot, I did use a bottle Restore about once a year for 5 years up until about 2 years ago on this beast. It may have helped some with the lifter issue!!! It actually plates out a colloidal silver-copper-lead alloy onto worn wear areas to improve compression and ring sealing, etc. So it may have helped repair the bearing surfaces of my lifters, the cam lobes, etc..... I do know it can repair hot spot wear areas on cylinder walls for instance, Seen that personally on a ford Vulcan 3.0 engine we did head jobs on twice!!!!! It is in a silver can. Never seen any other product like it on the market. It is not a five minute fix. But over time I measured a significant increase in compression on 2 engines of mine.

But it was not an over night process in the early days. No idea if using MMO and PB blaster on the valve train direclty, and going directly to 4500 rpm would have speed up getting to long periods of quite start ups with little or no tick, but most of the others here the last 3 years that have tried, got almost immediate results with the high rpm, till it stops making noise trick. And then only occasionally had to slap it (LOL) again.

From the sound of yours, its pretty bad from that video, so you may have a bad piston or wrist pin....issue. You should try pulling a spark plug wire, one cylinder at a time to locate the cylinder. If the noise changes when you disconet the spark plug wire, its more than just lifter tick on that one, I am told. I think old_man mentioned it here earlier!!

asymptonic
November 28th, 2017, 12:15
Quick update to the thread: Added a can of 6-cylinder restore, and as predicted did very little to the one-cyclinder tap. It is a bit quieter especially when hot.

However, and quite surprisingly, it completely got rid of the other cyclinder's lifter tick! How?

Ecomike
November 29th, 2017, 07:42
Restore is totally unique in the world of snake oil additives.

It contains colloidal particles (tiny) of a lead-silver-copper alloy that circulates in the oil and when it hits a hot spot, worn wear area, it melts (the particle melts and plates out onto the hot worn spots) and plates out in that spot repairing scratches and gouges in bearing surfaces. I have studied it and tested it for 10 years, seen it increase compression, increase oil pressure and repair damaged piston cylinder walls first hand.


Quick update to the thread: Added a can of 6-cylinder restore, and as predicted did very little to the one-cyclinder tap. It is a bit quieter especially when hot.

However, and quite surprisingly, it completely got rid of the other cyclinder's lifter tick! How?

Jprat01
November 30th, 2017, 11:10
This is my first post ever, but figured my recent experience was worth chiming in on. I purchased my first XJ (2001 Sport) a few months ago for my son and it sounded a little noisier as compared to my 98 TJ, but since I had never had a day of engine issues with the 98 I just wrote it off as 4.0 normal noise. Well fast forward a few weeks and the noise seemed to get worse so I scoured the forums looking for answers, of which there are plenty, and when I got tired of reading I decided the best first step was to just drop the oil pan and have a look. To my surprise there was a large chunk of the Skirt from the #6 cylinder laying in the bottom. Keep in mind that the XJ was still running and being driven and "seemed" to be just fine albeit noisy. The short answer here is dropping the Oil Pan for an inspection is simple, even for a novice DIY'er and could yield the answer you seek.

I then spent the last few weeks tearing down and rebuilding the 4.0 that only had 160k on the clock and in doing so discovered the #5 Cylinder Skirt was cracked in 2 places as well. Luckily for me the chunk that was broken off did ZERO damage so the rebuild was straight forward. This is the first time I have rebuilt anything larger than a push mower and if you take your time, label everything, take tons of pictures, and use You Tube it really wasn't that difficult. I am about 200 miles into the fresh engine and so far so good. Thanks for reading my long winded post.

asymptonic
November 30th, 2017, 11:59
Was your rebuild just replacing worn components? No machining?

Jprat01
November 30th, 2017, 12:20
Replacing worn parts only is what I did. Heck I didn't even remove the engine, but in hindsight I would remove if I ever do one again just to make the rebuild process simpler. I know a lot of guys will moan & groan over the process I chose, but since the engine still ran and showed no other issues I figured what the heck. I replaced the Pistons, Rings, & Rod Bearings with Sealed Power ones from Summit, used a Bottle Brush Hone also from Summit, put in new Lifters from ebay, new Timing Chain/Gear set also from ebay, all new gaskets Fel-Pro only, new Head Bolts Fel-Pro again, and a few other odds and ends. Not sure what I spent since I didn't keep track, but other than the Summit parts I looked for the least expensive options I could find. I hand polished the Crank best I could, cleaned the heck out of everything and then cleaned it again. I re-ground all the valve seats which was a lot simpler than I thought and even though the head was the "dreaded" 0331 version I saw no apparent cracks or cross contamination of oil & coolant so I re-used it. The one thing I did not do myself was putting the new pistons on the rods. For that I found a machine shop and pad about $50 for them to do it which was worth it to me. I cannot stress enough that this is not the preferred way to rebuild an engine, but for my skills/budget it was the best option and so far I am happy with the result and the experience I had in doing it. As far as difficulty level if you are moderately skilled DIY'er and have the space & time to tackle it the job isn't that hard. For me removing/replacing the rear Leaf Springs was more difficult and stressful than rebuilding the engine.

asymptonic
December 6th, 2017, 16:49
Update: Finally got a chance to disable cylinders to see if there was any affect on the noise. From the top of the engine, it's loudest at the very back of the engine near #6. Cold and wet today so I didn't try a stethoscope on the bottom, and as I was working alone I couldn't listen down there while pulling injectors.

All that said, pulling each injector harness had *no* effect on the sound. Am I looking in the right part of the motor?

asymptonic
December 18th, 2017, 16:08
Got some 20w50 in it, and as sort of expected had no effect on the noise. Pretty sure its going to need a rebuild. How long can I ignore this problem before it becomes more serious?

In the event I do get it rebuilt, what all should I have done. I can do research on recommended manufacturers for the various parts, but when I ask a shop I want to know what I should be looking to do for a "proper" rebuild.

Ecomike
December 19th, 2017, 17:48
Have you done a compression test yet?

A spark plug condition inspection on each plug?

And an operating vacuum series of tests with a Vacuum gauge?

Have you physically inspected everything under the valve cover?

Did you pull the valve cover and soak the top of the lifters over night with pure MMO?

You will know a lot more after doing all of these!!! I would do ALL of these before I assumed it might be a bad piston skirt or rod.....

You can pull the head and replace lifters. And inspect everything but the bottom end. You can inspect the bottom end by dropping the oil pan.

I would do those last!!!

asymptonic
December 19th, 2017, 22:13
Good points Mike. I'll do the compression and spark tests. Valve cover and MMO soak I've done. Looked clean as a whistle and the MMO soak didn't work. I'm smelling stronger exhaust though so fearing for the worst.

Have you done a compression test yet?

A spark plug condition inspection on each plug?

And an operating vacuum series of tests with a Vacuum gauge?

Have you physically inspected everything under the valve cover?

Did you pull the valve cover and soak the top of the lifters over night with pure MMO?

You will know a lot more after doing all of these!!! I would do ALL of these before I assumed it might be a bad piston skirt or rod.....

You can pull the head and replace lifters. And inspect everything but the bottom end. You can inspect the bottom end by dropping the oil pan.

I would do those last!!!