We don't need another DW thread, but...

[JJacobs]

Tire tosser, good one. Yeah, I used to do a lot of tires.
I wish I could just cut'n paste this whole TSB but that'd be a no-no- maybe someone can find a link to it online. Ford TSB 07-10-10, titled Steering Wheel Oscillation is a good one. It deals with shimmy on coil sprung, solid axle trucks. Key points are fastener torque, damper replacement and caster reduction. We have also found that the track bar lower ball joint in the axle is a big player, when they get loose shimmy starts out mild until the damper fails, then it gets nasty, both are typically replaced at the same time. I know, it's for Fords but the same principles apply.

I've seen a couple XJ's where literally nothing was wrong but they'd wobble. Every single piece fit tight, excellent condition, no cracks, move the caster around, throw as many dampers as you want on it, still wouldn't help. Change the wheels to a little different offset- problem solved. Then there's others that are out of balance, loose balljoints, track bar and everything else without a hint of shimmy. XJ's can be downright evil when they want to be, that's why I don't recommend leaving off a part that may be essential.

 

[WB9YZU]

Too many things changed for so little lift and so little tire. Adjustable this and that....hmmm. Most folks get away with all stock arms and track bar for the lift you appear to have with no problems. Assuming the unit had no DW before the lift...

Professional alignment on a highly modified front end means exactly do do as the stock values can not be obtained and retain proper alignment of the front DS/Pinion without cutting off and rotating the knuckles.

So, here is a suggestion: Start over.

Adjust all arms to stock length as measured from your old arms.
Then adjust the lowers equally until you have the proper DS/Pinion angle.
Test drive it. If the DW is gone, but the it seems to be a bit "Over Center" on the steering, kick the bottom out a bit, again, adjusting each equally.

Once that has been adjusted, then you can try and center the wheel in the housing by adjusting the arms equally.

REV gave some excellent advice on checking for worn parts, though I must say that the only time I have had DW on a 4WD was on a 62' Scout I had, and everything was worn out. Perhaps I and just lucky as the current ride now has over 185K on it and still no hint of DW, even with the lift.

My feedback on the stablizer argument is that if it "Fixes" it, don't look a gift horse in the mouth. Many folks hav gotten DW when their stablizer finally went West, but as REV observes, that may just be because everything else is worn out too, just like my old Scout ; which BTW I finally ended up installing a stablizer on to "Fix" it

 

[Rev Den]

Will try this tomorrow. Truck on or off, or does it matter? Thanks for the help--I am pretty annoyed that I did this lift the "right" way, with quality parts, and still have the same issues that someone who tossed on a $149 BB might have.

Truck on the ground, engine on will allow more power to move wheels but make it harder to listen, try it both ways.

JJ - I have searched for that TSB, I could not find it. I did find a BUNCH (9-15-8) that dealt with "shimmy" (Fords word) that manifests itself after bumps. All of them mention a steering stabilizer be installed if it is not installed from factory as a LAST step. This is after ALL the other suspension is checked/replaced. As I am sure you know, the idea of this "solution" is to insure the vehicle does not return till after the warranty is up....it is all dollars my friend....we both know that.

I also found a TSB (03-17-4) that stated that "wheel fight" the jerk that is transmitted to the steering wheel from an encounter with a uneven road surface is the reason for a steering stabilizer.

Rev

Edit - searching for Steering Wheel Osciattlion I found:
5-22-1 - No mention of a steering stabilizer
6-22-14 - No mention of a steering stabilizer

 

[mecompco]

Too many things changed for so little lift and so little tire. Adjustable this and that....hmmm. Most folks get away with all stock arms and track bar for the lift you appear to have with no problems. Assuming the unit had no DW before the lift...

Professional alignment on a highly modified front end means exactly do do as the stock values can not be obtained and retain proper alignment of the front DS/Pinion without cutting off and rotating the knuckles.

So, here is a suggestion: Start over.

Adjust all arms to stock length as measured from your old arms.
Then adjust the lowers equally until you have the proper DS/Pinion angle.
Test drive it. If the DW is gone, but the it seems to be a bit "Over Center" on the steering, kick the bottom out a bit, again, adjusting each equally.

Once that has been adjusted, then you can try and center the wheel in the housing by adjusting the arms equally.

REV gave some excellent advice on checking for worn parts, though I must say that the only time I have had DW on a 4WD was on a 62' Scout I had, and everything was worn out. Perhaps I and just lucky as the current ride now has over 185K on it and still no hint of DW, even with the lift.

My feedback on the stablizer argument is that if it "Fixes" it, don't look a gift horse in the mouth. Many folks hav gotten DW when their stablizer finally went West, but as REV observes, that may just be because everything else is worn out too, just like my old Scout ; which BTW I finally ended up installing a stablizer on to "Fix" it

Thanks for your input, and the "food for thought". I have set of brand new BFG 33x10.5 MTs ready to mount, after fender trimming, but really wanted to get the lift dialed in with my "known-good" 235s. Never ANY vibe issues pre-lift/new front-end parts.

 

[mecompco]

Truck on the ground, engine on will allow more power to move wheels but make it harder to listen, try it both ways.

JJ - I have searched for that TSB, I could not find it. I did find a BUNCH that dealt with "shimmy" (Fords word) that manifests itself after bumps. All of them mention a steering stabilizer be installed if it is not installed from factory as a LAST step. This is after ALL the other suspension is checked/replaced. As I am sure you know, the idea of this "solution" is to insure the vehicle does not return till after the warranty is up....it is all dollars my friend....we both know that.

I also found a TSB that stated that "wheel fight" the jerk that is transmitted to the steering wheel from an encounter with a uneven road surface is the reason for a steering stabilizer.

Rev

We'll try this tomorrow. I think I mentioned that my issue occurred at much lower speed (40-45) PRIOR to the alignment as the caster was 9.9* front right and 8.8* front left. I really thought the issue was gone until this last higher-speed incident. I'm familiar with "bump steer" from my FSB w/35x12.5 MTs, which a SS helped (never any DW, though, I guess due to the IFS).

 

[RCP Phx]

I've seen a couple XJ's where literally nothing was wrong but they'd wobble. Every single piece fit tight, excellent condition, no cracks, move the caster around, throw as many dampers as you want on it, still wouldn't help. Change the wheels to a little different offset- problem solved. Then there's others that are out of balance, loose balljoints, track bar and everything else without a hint of shimmy. XJ's can be downright evil when they want to be, that's why I don't recommend leaving off a part that may be essential.

You just made points for the stated facts,steering stabilizers "are" a bandaid for an "under-lying" problem,There is no need for them if everything is correct/proper.Many vehicles never came with them from the factory with no issues over the many years of service!

 

[JJacobs]

Like XJ's? Oh- guess not huh. Whatever, you guys go on with your old wives' tale, you've worn me down too far. Hardheaded bastards.
The truth will always elude some people.

Rev Den: the applicable TSB is for the 05 and up Super Duties, gas only, the diesels don't have that problem typically as the vehicle dynamics are different (that's a hint to all you damper haters)

edit: one other interesting part of the TSB I mentioned, it calls for steering wheel replacement on certain models. The new wheel has different mass distribution characteristics- what's that tell you? Think, don't be a parrot, what's going on in the depths of the steering/ suspension system?

 

[JJacobs]

You just made points for the stated facts,steering stabilizers "are" a bandaid for an "under-lying" problem,There is no need for them if everything is correct/proper.Many vehicles never came with them from the factory with no issues over the many years of service!

Well, I was thinking about this stuff a little bit and realized my focus is a bit off and your band-aid statement is actually completely true!

Thing is, the natural shimmy tendency of this system is the underlying problem.

Back to the original poster- I bet if you reduce your caster some more, it'll take some wind out of the DW spring per se..

 

[monkeyevil]

My first step has been said before. Have someone shake the steering wheel back and forth while you watch/feel. Violently if you have too.

Check the trac bar, the trac bar bracket on the frame, all the tie-rod ends, ball joints, hubs, steering gear box, link bolts, link bushings.

Nothing loose? Have the wheels and tires balanced, road force if you have a shop local that can do it.

If you still have a wobble it's time to tear the front end down and inspect the parts individually. It's way easier to find a bad TRE by moving the ball around with the body in your hand.

Things that I have NOT seen cause DW.
Steering stabilizer.

But it will sure hide the problem well. As will inverted Y steering. As soon as you put on a wheel to wheel tie-rod the wheels can "cross talk" and really show front end problems.

Caster can have an effect on the severity of the wobble. But alone it can't be a cause. If it was everything with near 0 caster would have wobble problems.

 

[Rev Den]

it calls for steering wheel replacement on certain models. The new wheel has different mass distribution characteristics- what's that tell you?

There you go....that is the answer....aftermarket steering wheels or wheels not installed at the factory can cause DW.
:roflmao:

Dude....your wrong.

Accept it.

or don't, I don't think any of us really care.

BTW - Where do you work?

Rev

 

[Hellbent]

there is a chrysler tsb 19-003-06 "tire shimmy" applying mainly to 97-06 tj's, which states to check for(in this order) tire balance issues, worn and/or loose suspension components and lastly, worn/weak steering stabilizer. thought that was worth throwing out there...

 

[UNCC_99XJ]

Will try this tomorrow. Truck on or off, or does it matter? Thanks for the help--I am pretty annoyed that I did this lift the "right" way, with quality parts, and still have the same issues that someone who tossed on a $149 BB might have.

Don't be annoyed...it's all part of the fun of lifting an XJ....no two react the same . I also read every freakin DW thread out there, and know exactly how you feel.

Personally, and I know i'm gonna flamed like no other on this, but I'd throw a stabilizer on. I was fighting some seriously bad DW after my lift (did a BB...but anyways..). I couldn't go over 45mph...and if I did...god forbid I hit even the smallest of bumps. One little bump in the road and all hell broke loose. Scared the crap out of me seeing as how when it first hit me I was running about 60mph.

The way I see it is, it came from the factory with a stabilizer, so it has to serve some other purpose besides just being there for sh*ts and giggles, and to keep the wheel from being jerked out of your hand.

I put a Skyjacker HD stabilizer on mine that I got for about $45 and, atleast for now, it's solved my problem. I've read a couple of threads where people had the same case of DW as me, put a new stabilizer on, and have been running problem free for over a year. I've been running mine for almost two months now with no problems. And mine see's a lot of uneven country back roads and pot hole filled highway travel (atleast 60+ miles a day).

If nothing else, it will buy you some time to figure out what the problem is (if there is one).

Go ahead yall......yell, scream, and flame away....i'm ready for it. :flame:

 

[scottmcneal]

great choice, if the dealer does it, then i would think it needs to be there,

 

[mecompco]

Today's activities:

Checked all front end stuff--all tight.

Reduced tire pressue a bit (down to 32 lbs).

Turned LCAs two full turns in to further reduce caster (approx. 1*, we estimate). BTW, adjusting LCAs is a PITA--thank goodness we had a porta-power to push the axle forward to get the bolts back in.

Initial 25 mile drive was OK. Plan to put another 100 or so on it tomorrow. If that goes well, I think we'll toss the SS on and call it good.

Next issue: Front DS vibes at 65. Plan to remove DS and see what happens, then reinstall at 180* if it does prove to be the shaft (brand new Tom Woods HD shaft). Any other suggestions? (I know things are turning pretty fast with the 4.56s and the small tires--it may be better with the 33s on).

Oh, rear shaft is also a brand new TW with their SYE installed on the 242.

 

[JJacobs]

Hmm, a couple people showing logical thought processes! Kudos.

 

[Rev Den]

Hmm, a couple people showing logical thought processes! Kudos.

That's right....keep it up.

mecompco - Glad you made some progress.

Rev

 

[red91]

I would think rotors that bad would show up in the pedal, no?

Oh yeah...you'd know a warped rotor...thats NOT the problem.