Boatwrench
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Petaluma, CA
I went backed and looked, in pics 5 & 6 the silver coil looks to me to have an electrical connector where it goes into the probe. :dunno:
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Need advanced cooling system help!
- Thread starter decathect
- Start date
I went backed and looked, in pics 5 & 6 the silver coil looks to me to have an electrical connector where it goes into the probe. :dunno:
RCP Phx
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Phoenix,Az
Look closely,it goes to his electric fan controller(not a gauge).
5-90
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Hammerspace
The stock sensor is for an electric gage - it's a variable resistance that changes in response to temperature (they're most often called "thermistors," but a thermistor follows a predictable and known temperature/resistance curve. I don't know the respose curve for the gage sensor...)
A mechanical gage and sensor arrangement simply eliminates the electrical side of things. It's probably something akin to a Bourdon tube (a bimetallic element won't work for something remote - a "bimetallic element" is simply strips of two different metals fastened together along their lengths, but they have different rates of thermal expansion/contraction. Ever see that coil spring in an old-style house thermostat? The one with the mercury switch on it? That's a bimetallic element.)
There is still possible error with the mechanical gage, but you've eliminated potential wiring faults, potential connector contamination, ... So, you've probably got a more accurate reading.
Just make sure the sensor tip is mounted somewhere that it gets constant flow over it - don't use a Tee fitting, and don't put it in a "flow pocket" (dead space where fluid pools, but doesn't keep flowing.) Both of those will probably give you false readings.
hubs97xj
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Fort Wayne, IN
Without being able to look directly at everything (and short of running down to Home Despot to check the plumbing aisle), I would be concerned that the valve and the T assembly are both restricting flow since the ID is smaller than the hoses' ID.
What prompted the valves, fittings, and relocated sender in the first place?
What prompted the valves, fittings, and relocated sender in the first place?
Since you only heat up when moving slow, the obvious answer is lack of air flow. Not all efans are created equal. I have efans on mine that work well. However, efans in the 11" variety like what I have come with different cfm ratings from 600 to 2200. That is a huge range. Two or three of the 600 cfm fans will not cut it when not moving. You need to hit about 3000 cfm combined to get enough air flow to cool it. The ones I got were 2200 cfm. They are not cheap, but effective. Here is what I have.
Twin Derale fans on a home grown shroud
jeeperjohn
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Temecula, CA
This is what I was getting at with the shrouds. Nice setup!Since you only heat up when moving slow, the obvious answer is lack of air flow. Not all efans are created equal. I have efans on mine that work well. However, efans in the 11" variety like what I have come with different cfm ratings from 600 to 2200. That is a huge range. Two or three of the 600 cfm fans will not cut it when not moving. You need to hit about 3000 cfm combined to get enough air flow to cool it. The ones I got were 2200 cfm. They are not cheap, but effective. Here is what I have.
Twin Derale fans on a home grown shroud
sjx40250
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Alexandria VA
Isn't oil temp a better gauge of engine temp? It takes awhile to get there and stays with dampened fluxuations.
Some rough and ready thoughts for ya .....
Oil & water are two different things.
Internal combustion engine needs liquid cooling (commonly) as part of the overall cooling process ..... air cooling in old VW's / motorbikes yada, yada ....
Oil is primarily for lubrication .... but does does provide a slight cooling function. It should also be at, or just above the coolant temp to help prevent condensation (sludge) in the oil pan ... which is something to consider when choosing a correct viscosity / temp range engine oil.
.... and the oil temp is dependant on the coolant temp ... as when the coolant / engine temp rises , the oil temp will rise as an a result.
Oil coolers can assist in cooling the engine somewhat, if desired and practical.
Ideally ... one would be keeping an eye on coolant temps and oil temps ....
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http://www.summitracing.com/parts/DER-16925/
Might have to get me one of those.
You guys are probably right, my small electric fans probably only do a combined 2k CFM, after looking at specs of many fans.
And ideally, I would like to install an oil cooler/temp gauge, but that is just low on the priority list right now.
side question, I'm tuning my jeep for better gas mileage right now, what do you guys recommend for WOT AFR and part throttle AFRs (general guidelines)?
Might have to get me one of those.
You guys are probably right, my small electric fans probably only do a combined 2k CFM, after looking at specs of many fans.
And ideally, I would like to install an oil cooler/temp gauge, but that is just low on the priority list right now.
side question, I'm tuning my jeep for better gas mileage right now, what do you guys recommend for WOT AFR and part throttle AFRs (general guidelines)?
jeeperjohn
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Temecula, CA
One of the better things about cooling the oil is that it keeps the bottom of the pistons cooler which reduces the tendancy for preignition and cooling the oil drastically extends the useful life of it. The oil will remove a great deal of heat from the engine so it is a good thing for any engine that sees heavy duty use.
joe_peters
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Grants Pass, OryGun
Really does sound like the CFMs are not enough.
As said, loose the restrictor.
A mechanical fan's clutch will start to engage when the airflow through the radiator and hitting the bi-metal spring is at about 170 degrees. The engine coolant would be about 30 degrees higher, or at about 200 degrees.
As said, loose the restrictor.
A mechanical fan's clutch will start to engage when the airflow through the radiator and hitting the bi-metal spring is at about 170 degrees. The engine coolant would be about 30 degrees higher, or at about 200 degrees.
RCP Phx
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Phoenix,Az
That sounds like a great idea,BUT ITS NOT! All fluids,coolants,and lubricants work best at their "nominal" temps,any less(and any more) and you will always sacrifice some portion of the intened design!
Just my .02 cents from having dealt with XJ cooling systems for over a decade.
While CFM is certainly important- especially at slow speeds- Radiator cooling capability is what I normally see as being the main culprit in overheating for most people. More CFM won't cure an overheating issue if your radiator is insufficient.
I've had many guys tell me how they've replaced all sorts of stuff like thermostats, housings, water pumps, e-fans, and on and on, but they either haven't replaced the radiator or they've replaced it with a unit that may be questionable in cooling performance.
I agree with Goatman and I've also seen a number of guys go with dual electrics- only to switch back to the original set-up later.
Wheeling hard and slow in Kansas heat in the summer with temps around 105*, AC on, my temps have always stayed around 195* on a mechanical gauge plumbed in at the thermostat housing.
I have always run the same set-up on 4 different XJ's over the last 12 years.
-CSF 3-Row Radiator (This rad outcooled their 2 row unit by a big margin and also outcooled every other 2 or 3 row rad I've tried- and I think I've tried them all in the last 10 years)
-FACTORY 195* thermostat, Factory T-Stat Housing, Factory water pump, Factory Fan Clutch with Original engine driven fan and Factory e-fan!
-50/50 mix of antifreeze and distilled water No water wetter...
I do run synthetic motor oil too and I like it for superior protection, but I'm of the crowd that would believe it lends itself to running a bit cooler than dino.
Basically, the stock system with the CSF 3-row radiator has been great for me and many others- assuming that the stock t-stat, fan clutch, water pump, etc, are all in good working order.
Hood vents can certainly lower underhood temps and facilitate quicker underhood cooling and (in some cases) lower engine temps a bit, but the jeep shouldn't be running too hot with the right cooling system components.
The only issue I have now is that my XJ is a 2000 model. Turning on the AC on the 2000 and 2001 models does not cause the e-fan to come on like it did on previous models. Now the computer tells it to come on, regardless of whether the AC is on or not. It still runs right around 210 on the factory gauge, but I wanna figure out the right way to make the e-fan come on sooner and I'll also install a good mechanical temp gauge again since the newer factory temp gauges are "funny.":confused1
The factory setting on the e-fan was too hot on my '97 models too. I'd notice that my gauge would creep up around that 210 mark on the trail if my AC was off, but as soon as I turned it on, the temps STAYED at 195* all day long. The 2nd e-fan is important to the cooling system! The engine driven fan is only pulling air through half of the radiator. On those super hot days at slow speeds on the trail, I want both fans working!
Sitting around 195* all the time tells me that my cooling system is more than efficient and my thermostat is dictating the minimum engine temp that I'm running at. If I'm running hotter than my thermostat setting, then my cooling system isn't keeping up how I like it to...
While CFM is certainly important- especially at slow speeds- Radiator cooling capability is what I normally see as being the main culprit in overheating for most people. More CFM won't cure an overheating issue if your radiator is insufficient.
I've had many guys tell me how they've replaced all sorts of stuff like thermostats, housings, water pumps, e-fans, and on and on, but they either haven't replaced the radiator or they've replaced it with a unit that may be questionable in cooling performance.
I agree with Goatman and I've also seen a number of guys go with dual electrics- only to switch back to the original set-up later.
Wheeling hard and slow in Kansas heat in the summer with temps around 105*, AC on, my temps have always stayed around 195* on a mechanical gauge plumbed in at the thermostat housing.
I have always run the same set-up on 4 different XJ's over the last 12 years.
-CSF 3-Row Radiator (This rad outcooled their 2 row unit by a big margin and also outcooled every other 2 or 3 row rad I've tried- and I think I've tried them all in the last 10 years)
-FACTORY 195* thermostat, Factory T-Stat Housing, Factory water pump, Factory Fan Clutch with Original engine driven fan and Factory e-fan!
-50/50 mix of antifreeze and distilled water No water wetter...
I do run synthetic motor oil too and I like it for superior protection, but I'm of the crowd that would believe it lends itself to running a bit cooler than dino.
Basically, the stock system with the CSF 3-row radiator has been great for me and many others- assuming that the stock t-stat, fan clutch, water pump, etc, are all in good working order.
Hood vents can certainly lower underhood temps and facilitate quicker underhood cooling and (in some cases) lower engine temps a bit, but the jeep shouldn't be running too hot with the right cooling system components.
The only issue I have now is that my XJ is a 2000 model. Turning on the AC on the 2000 and 2001 models does not cause the e-fan to come on like it did on previous models. Now the computer tells it to come on, regardless of whether the AC is on or not. It still runs right around 210 on the factory gauge, but I wanna figure out the right way to make the e-fan come on sooner and I'll also install a good mechanical temp gauge again since the newer factory temp gauges are "funny.":confused1
The factory setting on the e-fan was too hot on my '97 models too. I'd notice that my gauge would creep up around that 210 mark on the trail if my AC was off, but as soon as I turned it on, the temps STAYED at 195* all day long. The 2nd e-fan is important to the cooling system! The engine driven fan is only pulling air through half of the radiator. On those super hot days at slow speeds on the trail, I want both fans working!
Sitting around 195* all the time tells me that my cooling system is more than efficient and my thermostat is dictating the minimum engine temp that I'm running at. If I'm running hotter than my thermostat setting, then my cooling system isn't keeping up how I like it to...
jeeperjohn
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Temecula, CA
Many aftermarket oil coolers have a bypass built into them to allow the oil to reach operating temp.
Whaaaa???Read a post onsomewhere, that stated there was a dealer flash for the computer that lowered the e-fan settings on the later models.
Might be worth investigating ..... Probably not as good as a driver controlled, fan over-ride switch tho .....
I'd love to hear more about that if anyone knows where that thread is!
So, what do you make of that?ummmm .... OK it wasnt a dealer flash as such ....
http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1031434
Bryan said they re-programmed the e-fan to come on at a lower temp?
I'll call the dealer Monday and see if they know anything about it. If they can do it, I'm on board!
I'm thinking about installing a separate temp gauge since I don't trust the factory gauge too much and going from there. I liked how turning the AC on caused the e-fan to kick on with my '97 models and the '98 we had.
I don't like how hot the engine gets before the computer tells the e-fan to come on in the later models.
AC on in the summertime in temps up to 105+ and I stayed at 195* on the gauge in my earlier models. ('97-98)
