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Naive question...

basically it boils down to one freedom that americans should NOT have.


americans are free to be ignorant. The ONLY oversight of our forefathers.
 
Fergie said:
Why do we, as Americans, allow our government to control so many aspects of our life?
You really need to be more specific.

Fergie said:
why are we coddled and told what we can and can't do?
Again, more specifics.

Fergie said:
why are we told we have to drive a certain speed limit on wide open roads(school zones I can see)?
Why are we told what mufflers we can have, or what lift can be put on our vehicles?
Not only am I surprised that you do not know the answer to thes questions, I'm surprised that you interpret them a government control.

Fergie said:
See, that is the general assumption that irritates me. You arent the one to decide whether a person is stupid, and no one else should either.
No "ONE" makes decisions that any "ONE" is too stupid. If you know of an example of where government controls are designed to to control "individuals" I'd like to hear it.

Fergie said:
One thing that I always end up saying is "There is no personal accountability and responsibility in the country today." People are out to save their own butts and have no concept of how their actions will affect others around them. Courteousness has gone out the door.
Therein lies the answer to to your qustions.
 
Fergie said:
I mean, why are we coddled and told what we can and can't do?
You ask these questions, and yet you still go to church? There's some questioning to ponder!
 
I think it's interesting that so many people see this as a "liberal vs. conservative" question. People who have no problem with the Patriot act and laws that make librarians tell the government what books you take out, or propose that the government make the flag the only legally sacred idol on earth, so invested with symbolic value that we could be imprisoned for destroying a picture of it we made ourselves, bitch about speed limits.

Don't confuse cheaper government with "less government." Politicians who yell about less government usually mean more laws with fewer exceptions. You cannot honestly campaign for less government if you want more police, abortion legislation, flag protection, "defense of marriage" acts, the Patriot Act, etc. I'm not arguing against these things - that's another issue for other times, but people who think this is compatible with less government are either confused or lying.

People see other people doing things they find abhorrent, and say "there oughtta be a law." We seem to have no problem signing off on rights when we don't perceive ourselves as needing them. Helmet laws don't affect me, because I wear a helmet anyway. Patriot act doesn't bother me because I'm not a terrorist and have nothing to hide. etc. etc.

Of course, we do need some laws to protect ourselves from the stupidities and transgressions of other people, no matter how smart and good we may be. But if you think of those laws always as "us against them," it's all too easy to find out too late that you're always a "them" to someone else. So-called liberals seem to prefer nanny laws that forbid you to be stupid, while so-called conservatives favor laws that forbid you to sin, but it's really all the same, and if you think of this as a partisan issue you'll miss the boat, and lose your freedom piece by piece. So called liberals have also been responsible for many laws you would not like to see go away, which protect us from exploitation, discrimination and injury by others, and so called conservatives have also been responsible for many laws you would not like to see go away, which protect us from violence, theft and brigandage.

We can't afford to be complete anarchists or libertarians - people are just too stupid and rotten for that. But we also can't afford to make the government resposible for all our safety from either ourselves or others. I don't know just where we ought to draw the line, but I think a good starting point is to drop the blaming mentality, and to remember that no matter who or what we are or what we are doing at the moment, good laws protect us all as a people, and bad ones diminish us even if they never change an iota of what we do.
 
TRNDRVR said:
You ask these questions, and yet you still go to church? There's some questioning to ponder!

Sorry dude, but you're a bit off on that one.

Hopefully we can talk at Moab and you'll see what I really believe.

JeffV- If a law or rule isnt basic human courtesy/respect(murder/rape), that sort of thing, then I see no reason I should abide by it if I have not agreed to it. The speed limit point was something off the top of my head.

MC- This is not a liberal/conservative issue to me. This is a "why do others feel that what is best for them is best for me" kind of issue. Again, it comes down to the simple fact, that if an act does not infringe on another person's personal freedoms, then I don't see a reason to abide by it.

People should be be able to do whatever they damn well please, as long as it does not infringe on another person's ability to do what they damn well please.

I too dont know the answers, but need to learn, and need to see some changes. I hope I have the energy to do it, and don't get sidelined by the cynicism.

Fergie
 
Last edited:
its easy Fergie.....

We the people, in order to be abunch of LAZY F_ _ _ sticks, have given the government the ability to do what they please.

It not their fault...its ours.
 
Just to throw a couple of things into the discussion.
Anarchy almost requires the population to be sane. Fifteen percent is manic, of that 15 percent 3% is psychotic and on the other end of the scale 15 percent is depressive and three percent pretty much carrots.
Anarchy may be an option, if the 60 percent, can figure out a way to deal with the 30%. Or it all reverts to the law of the jungle.
Many things, that were decried as the flaws of communism, are now accepted facts of life, in our so called democratic society. Both spouses work and the state is responsible for the raising and rearing of our children (how many hours a day do you actually spend with your children?). Somebody decided that a liberal approach to child rearing was the proper approach and produced a whole generation of children, with murky borders, on what is acceptable behavior. And then passed a whole bunch of laws to try and control them.
To site an example, Germany is one of the most law abidding countries in the world (maybe behind Japan) or it used to be. The older Germans look at an illegal act and say "you can´t do that because it´s against the law". The youngsters have figuered out, it´s only against the law, if you get caught and/or I am the law. Law is really an abstract thing, like money. If people choose to ignore it, it really doesn´t mean much. The difference between a system that actually works and the system derived by the person with the best arguement, are the choices, logical functional processes or political processes (or in other words fact and fiction). Theoretic democracy says a concensous by the first hundred names in the phone book, is probably the right solution to most any problem. Todays democracy is controlled by a political body, that has little or nothing in common with democracy. You usually have few actual choices. I´ve rarley seen "non of the above" offered as a posiblilty in a ballot.
I raised one child my wifes way, the only consequence to misbehavior was a long talk and maybe a scolding. I raised the next two, my way, made the rules clear (there were actually few) and kicked there butt when they were broken. Raised them to put there "will" on hold and there mind in gear and to do the right thing, whenever possible. Guess which children turned out the best. The oldest one, finally came around, but it was really painfull.
In my oppinion, the police spend way to much time, with petty stuff and way to little, on the larger social problems. The politicians spend way to much time with party politics and way to little, on actual solutions to regional problems. A politicians solution is to throw money at the problem, a policemans solution is to make as much money as possible off of the petty stuff.
For every time a politician has actually helped me (which were pretty darned few) I´ve paid a rather large percentage of my income for decades. Ditto with the police.
As a sidebar, a very few people, actually produce anything and they are usually too busy to be political. The rest are pretty much ticks, on the ass of society and have way too much control.
 
Fergie said:
JeffV- If a law or rule isnt basic human courtesy/respect(murder/rape), that sort of thing, then I see no reason I should abide by it if I have not agreed to it. The speed limit point was something off the top of my head. Fergie

OK..... Ill bite, what laws or rules do you feel you are "above?"
 
Fergie said:
People should be be able to do whatever they damn well please, as long as it does not infringe on another person's ability to do what they damn well please.

Fergie
That's very naive. First, where does one draw the line? And who's to say whether it infringes upon another person or not? This kind of attitude, when acted on, is what destroys societies.
 
Tom R. said:
That's very naive. First, where does one draw the line? And who's to say whether it infringes upon another person or not?
Seems pretty clear-cut to me... If you kill someone or walk around beating people up, you certainly affect other people. If I pack a gun into a bar (illegal here) who is a victim? If I grow pot in my garage and smoke it in my own home by myself or with friends and we stay put in the house until the effects wear off, who is a victim? How does being a responsible person create victims?

This kind of attitude, when acted on, is what destroys societies.

Example, please?
 
JeffV said:
OK..... Ill bite, what laws or rules do you feel you are "above?"
You know, I try to see things from most people's views sometimes, but have found you to be completely worthless.

I did not say I was above a rule or law. I said that if what I do does not affect someone else's ability to live, and that if there are lawas I have not agreed to, then I should not have to abide by them.

Tom R.- Interesting you think that. Your wheeling affects somebody somewhere...guess we need a law to stop you from doing it.

ECKS is spot on with his examples. If a person's actions do not affect another person's ability to live out the Constitutional and basic human rights, then there shouldnt be a law regarding said actions.

Think.

Fergie
 
ECKSJAY said:
If I grow pot in my garage and smoke it in my own home by myself or with friends and we stay put in the house until the effects wear off, who is a victim?


That answers my question....I'm moving into YOUR GARAGE this weekend...:D
 
Sounds like we're wandering into a discussion of "consensual" or "victimless" crimes - the best example at the moment (given here) is the personal cultivation of cannabis for personal use and consumption, not for profit, in relative privacy, and waiting for the effects to subside before returning to public. No problem here - out of all the drugs, weed is the only one I don't have a problem with and I think it should be treated like alcohol (I am inclined to think that all drugs should be handled in a manner similar to alcohol - by decriminalizing, we will effectively eliminate the street crime associated with the drug trade, and we can make the "war on drugs" self-financing and gain a measure of effectiveness. However, it won't be done for two reasons: A) it just might result in progress, and B) no-one stands to make any money off of decriminalization. The penal industry is a growth industry...)

If I do something that stands to only potentially harm myself, offers NO risk to anyone else, and from which I do not financially profit (nor do I expliot another for profit,) why is it anyone's business if I do it or not?

Take a look at the Ten Commandments - they form what, in simplest form, is really the tenets for correct behaviour propounded by pretty much every religion on the globe. Even the Code of Hammurabi was largely based upon moral behaviour, and it worked. It was also simple - which tells me something about legal systems that we need our current "elected masters" to figure out.

The simplest legal systems usually work best - just like raising children. Have a small number of rules, have them be immediately, rigidly, and consistently enforced, and the reward will be correct behaviour.

Have an astonishing number of rules (many abstruse and incomprehensible by the people who are to follow them,) have spotty enforcement and the ability to slip the lead, and you will have people who are not interested in following the rules, because the chances are better than even that they can find a way to get away with it.

There is a reason that the basics for correct moral (religious) behaviour is no more than a decalogue - it make it easier for everyone to learn and understand the rules. There is also a reason that the ten rules are short - it makes them easy to rememeber and understand (and therefore enforce.)

I'd never make it into public office - mainly because I try to make sense of these useless things.

5-90
 
Fergie said:
You know, I try to see things from most people's views sometimes, but have found you to be completely worthless.

Thank you very kindly!

Fergie said:
I did not say I was above a rule or law. I said that if what I do does not affect someone else's ability to live, and that if there are lawas I have not agreed to, then I should not have to abide by them.
Define "ability to live." If your statement is not an example self contradiction, it is an attempt to establish a correlation between incompatable concepts. Rules and laws are established to govern groups of people, not individuals. Infringement upon Individual freedoms is a byproduct, of rules and laws, not an objective. The inference derived from your statment is that you as an individual, should have the right to "pick and choose" which rules and laws to abide by. What do you think the consequences would be if everyone had that right?

Fergie said:
It isn't this morning....been mulling around in my mind for a few months now...............why are we coddled and told what we can and can't do?
After all this "mulling" you still haven't provided a single tangible example. How are we "coddled?"

Fergie said:
I know, very broad and non-specific right now, but I am sure the more I think this over, the more understandable I'll be
We're still waiting.

Fergie said:
The speed limit point was something off the top of my head.
And this comes after "MONTHS" of mulling?

Fergie said:
People should be be able to do whatever they damn well please, as long as it does not infringe on another person's ability to do what they damn well please.
What you present here is not naive question, it's a rather naive statement.

Fergie said:
So, can some of the older guys here give a bit more insight as to why things are the way they are right now?
You provide some good examples of "why."

Individual immaturity and contradicting thought processes. Individual inability to differentiate between societal and "self" interest.Inability to provide tangible examples of the perceived "problem." The expectation that someone else should provide the answers or solutions to "problems" you have yet to specifically identify.

Fergie said:
Good advice. It's your turn to give it a try.
 
Perhaps that is the problem.

By creating laws that take the place of rational thought we are eliminating rational thought.

It is a law that coffee be labeled "HOT"
It is a law that chemical cleaners are labeled "not for consumption"

We have created a society with an increasing number of people who expect others to make moral and rational decisions for them. Laws created in "societal interest" have hurt society by increasing the number of ignorant fools they are made to protect.
 
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