LQ4 6.0L/NV4500/NP241c in an XJ - Q's before I waste a bunch of money :)

[blistovmhz]

Meh. Already ordered the AA kit. It'll be here in a few days and then I'll have a stock GM signal.
Thanks for the suggestions. I'll end up using them when I blow up this adapter or decide to build a bigger t-case.

So while I was digging into my t-cases, I think the last question I have is "will it work?"
NP241c long input shaft (wide bearing), NP231c main shaft and chain, stuffed into my 98 NP231j.
It all LOOKS right, but haven't had time to actually stuff it all together as I took out my back yesterday trying to get the tranny mated up to the block. Now I'll be mostly outta commission for the week, so LOTS of time to mess around with the harness and t-case while I wait for my ECU to come back from lt1swap, headers/mmounts from novak, and adapter/vss from AA.

Still haven't figured out what I'm doing for fuel delivery or cooling.
Fuel, I see there are some high output in tank options that'll fit into the factory location, but I'd REALLY prefer an external pump for when something dies on the trail. Suggestions?
My plan was to run something like a Walbro 250lph external pump, pull the stock pump and just replace it with a hose for pickup, retaining the rest of the drop in unit. This should work yea?

Cooling, I think I'm just holding off till someone sends me a recommendation or I get the motor into the Jeep to see what kinda room I've got to work with.

 

[yossarian19]

I don't like external pumps very much.
With all the gas sloshing around the in-tank units they stay cool and a cool pump is a long-lived pump.
If you listen to your pump once in a while or just buy one that doesn't suck you won't have them die on the trail.
See also: sheet metal hatch cut into the floor above the fuel pump for easy access if needed.
Gotta have the external pump? sounds like your plan will work. The C5 filter / regulator unit will work if you have returnless rails. If you have return rails, run whatever filter you want.
Cooling wise, you just might get away with a stock radiator and some creative plumbing.

 

[onetallmj]

for the future searches on here:

http://www.jagsthatrun.com/Pages/SpeedSensors_Speedometer.html

one possible solution to the VSS problem

 

[blistovmhz]

I don't like external pumps very much.
With all the gas sloshing around the in-tank units they stay cool and a cool pump is a long-lived pump.
If you listen to your pump once in a while or just buy one that doesn't suck you won't have them die on the trail.
See also: sheet metal hatch cut into the floor above the fuel pump for easy access if needed.
Gotta have the external pump? sounds like your plan will work. The C5 filter / regulator unit will work if you have returnless rails. If you have return rails, run whatever filter you want.
Cooling wise, you just might get away with a stock radiator and some creative plumbing.

Good call on the pump. I was already going to cut an access back there anyhow. Will just try to find a high output pump that'll fit the stock location. I believe there is a Walbro and an AEM pump rated to 500HP that's supposed to fit the stock location.

I would've probably gone with a stock XJ rad, but mine (the third on this jeep) barely keeps the 4.0L cool. I've never had as many issues with any Jeep like I have with this one (thus the swap).

 

[blistovmhz]

Trying to manage my time effectively while my back is out, so ordering fuel delivery stuff.
I've got a 255LPH Walbro pump that may just fit in the stock location.

I'm not sure about a few things.
What I know, is there are two lines coming from the tank. From the pump assembly to the main fuel line there is what looks to be a 12" piece of -6AN nylon with female quick connects on either end.
There's also the EVAP line that is just rubber hose (looks to be about 1/4") from the canister to a fitting on the top of the tank.

Questions:
1. What sizes are these lines? (I honestly can't crawl under the Jeep right now).
2. That EVAP return looks too small to handle return from a 255LPH pump and I don't know if it just drips fuel from the top, or if there's a line inside the tank run to the bottom. Anyonw know? Is it WAY too small to use for the return?

Assuming the main fuel line from the tank is in fact, -6AN, I'd just use the stock 12" to connect to the regulator/filter high pressure input, add a -6AN male fitting to the other end of the regulator, (stuff in the middle...) and terminate my new line with that special chevy fuel line adapter that mates up to the stock fuel intake at the rail.
For the return from the regulator (5/16 or -5AN) I'd just stick a quick connect to another -6AN line back to the tank, drill a hole and mount a male fitting that'd get plumbed to the bottom of the tank (aeration).

Does this sound absurdly over complicated, or just the right amount?

P.S. Wimp out and don't manhandle the transmission onto the motor yourself. Too busted for this. Outta commission for at least another 2-3 days.

EDIT: Hell, would it make more sense to just drop a 96 or earlier tank in now, as it's got the pump opening on the front (where it belongs) and is already plumbed for a high pressure return?

 

[Hoooper]

if you do swap tanks, go older than 96. My 96 is returnless.

I would suggest running a new fuel line no matter what, at least between the tank and the rail. The stock line is 5/16 and just not really big enough to support the flow needed.

 

[yossarian19]

It isn't -6AN.
AN stuff is after market & aircraft only. OEM's don't use it. I'm not really sure why they don't use AN on brake plumbing or power steering stuff, even, but in fuel line they go cheap and easy on the assembly line and use quick connects + nylon line most of the time.

Rather than go to a crap-ton of work making your fuel system match the motor, I'd do just a little work and make your motor match the fuel system you've got.

Got a returnless tank / lines setup? Put returnless rails on the engine.

The guys at BMC performance say a 5/16 feed line is good to 350 HP. I'd believe it.

 

[blistovmhz]

It isn't -6AN.
AN stuff is after market & aircraft only. OEM's don't use it. I'm not really sure why they don't use AN on brake plumbing or power steering stuff, even, but in fuel line they go cheap and easy on the assembly line and use quick connects + nylon line most of the time.

Rather than go to a crap-ton of work making your fuel system match the motor, I'd do just a little work and make your motor match the fuel system you've got.

Got a returnless tank / lines setup? Put returnless rails on the engine.

The guys at BMC performance say a 5/16 feed line is good to 350 HP. I'd believe it.

I've got a returnless rail, and returnless pump. The only reason I'm doing ANYTHING is because:
1. Need to do some work on the engine side to get the fuel line to mate up with the GM fuel line input. Using the stock hard lines is probably more work and more expensive (cause tools) than just running a new line from engine to tank.
2. Because I have the returnless rail, I don't have a high pressure return on the tank. From what I can tell (without actually pulling the tank), the only return is from the EVAP, which I'm guessing just drops fuel from the top of the tank. That return is only 1/4" and probably won't support a 255LPH flow, plus it's not crimped or using connectors. Just a rubber hose on 1/4" plastic fittings. I'm worried the constriction will either kill my high output pump, or blow out the return line.
3. Either way, I have to stick the regulator in-line somewhere to get the bump to 58PSI.

I figure if I have to install a high pressure return (to the bottom of the tank), I'd rather just do it with stuff that's easy to find (-6an). Plus, I also have to adapt the stock line from the tank to the regulator and again from the regulator to the main fuel line to the motor and also back to the tank. It'll be more work to adapt the stock Jeep lines (of unknown standard) than to just order 25' of either -6an rubber fuel line or nylon, stick some connectors on, and call my fuel delivery both standardized as well as upgraded.

I've heard lots of guys insist that the stock fuelling will easily support the lm7, while heaps of others say they tried and it didn't work. As long as I'm spending money and going through the trouble of dropping the tank, I'd rather err on the safe side and do it the way that WILL DEFINITELY work.

I often wonder about Jeep gremlins. Like, yes, most people are idiots, but when every Jeep argument is split almost exactly 50%, you have to start wondering if the Jeep is actually different from one guy to the next. .
How many guys laugh at you for talking about trying to get decent fuel economy and tell you to buy a Prius, because you'll never get >13mpg in an XJ, while others claim 22MPG should be considered standard? My first 5 XJ's all had no problem making 20mpg, while my current has never got >18 on the highway, and right now, despite not being able to find anything wrong, is getting around 15.
Stupid Jeeps.

I'm still waffling between 3/8 nylon or -6an hose. The actual nylon/hose is the same price, but the connectors for the nylon only require a single fitting per end, while the hose fittings require a hose to threaded and then threaded to connector. Hose option ends up being double the price, but doesn't require any special tools to assemble and probably less prone to cracking?

 

[John D]

Why not just do this for the return?

 

[blistovmhz]

Why not just do this for the return?

That looks like my original plan. Just add another fitting for the return.
What'd you do in that picture? What's your pump setup look like?
I've never tried to install anything but an OEM pump. I've recently heard that most of them are pretty standard, and my roomie has a spare Walbro 255lph pump that we were going to see if it'd fit in my tank.
Got any more pictures of what you did with your fuel setup? Also, how are those hose clamps holding up? I've always been under the impression that they were a bad idea.
Did you end up retaining the EVAP from the 5.3, and just dumping it back to your XJ's canister and then back to the stock location on the tank?

Also, what's going on here?

 

[John D]

That looks like my original plan. Just add another fitting for the return.
What'd you do in that picture? What's your pump setup look like?
I've never tried to install anything but an OEM pump. I've recently heard that most of them are pretty standard, and my roomie has a spare Walbro 255lph pump that we were going to see if it'd fit in my tank.
Got any more pictures of what you did with your fuel setup? Also, how are those hose clamps holding up? I've always been under the impression that they were a bad idea.

Also, what's going on here?

I thought I had more pics but I guess not. I used a TRE pump, same specs as that Walboro. It was an easy fit in the stock location. I also used the Novak fuel regulator. It wasn't cheap, but it was easy. I never had an issue with the rubber lines and clamps, but when I put the tank in the cargo area I did switch to -6 AN.

Not sure what you mean about what's going on in the pic?

 

[blistovmhz]

I thought I had more pics but I guess not. I used a TRE pump, same specs as that Walboro. It was an easy fit in the stock location. I also used the Novak fuel regulator. It wasn't cheap, but it was easy. I never had an issue with the rubber lines and clamps, but when I put the tank in the cargo area I did switch to -6 AN.

Not sure what you mean about what's going on in the pic?

Gravity just forget about the front of Jeep? I don't see anything to launch off of, so just looks like a wheelie... in the sand...

What'd you do for your shifter/cable and rad? Looks like you ended up with an aftermarket OE fit XJ rad with some fans?
I'm looking at this right now: http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/gri-cu-28222-ts/overview/
Rated to 425hp, passenger side inlet/outlet, auto-cooler fittings.
Any reason not to pull the trigger on this one?
EDIT: NVM. Way too wide. PS box in the way. Looks like I only have 20" wide, and 19" high, unless I stick with the XJ's stock 12" high, in which case I can go all the way to 31" wide, but all the XJ sizes are over a grand with fans.

 

[yossarian19]

The actual nylon/hose is the same price, but the connectors for the nylon only require a single fitting per end, while the hose fittings require a hose to threaded and then threaded to connector. Hose option ends up being double the price, but doesn't require any special tools to assemble and probably less prone to cracking?

If you have a caulk gun, some hot water & a brake flare you can work nylon lines. Check here.

Not to pimp my own solutions so hard but it worked for me and it's an option.

If you put $70 worth of Ebay fuel rails and a $15 -6AN to 5/16 quick connect you can plug the stock HP line into the LS motor.

 

[blistovmhz]

If you have a caulk gun, some hot water & a brake flare you can work nylon lines. Check here.

Not to pimp my own solutions so hard but it worked for me and it's an option.

If you put $70 worth of Ebay fuel rails and a $15 -6AN to 5/16 quick connect you can plug the stock HP line into the LS motor.

I may go either way. I really don't care what it looks like (no one should see the underside of my Jeep right?), I just really hate dealing with steel tube. The nylon connectors certainly are simpler and take up way less room.

Headers and motor mounts should be in today, but I can't pull my motor till I put my roomies truck back together (blew out some wheel bearings a few weeks ago, and he's been too entertained with his new mustang to fix the truck). Jeepy's my only ride until the truck is fixed. Hopefully have truck back on the road tonight so I can start pulling the Jeep motor tomorrow.

AA case adapter/VSS apparently won't ship till next thursday, and the rad won't ship till at least the 2nd of April, so I've got plenty of time to get the SBC fitted, burn in some exhaust, figure out fueling and intake, and tackle the wiring. Hell, by the time I get the rad, I'll probably have already grabbed an LS6 intake.
Really hoping I can just plug the SBC into my stock rad for a few test fires to make sure everything else is in order.

 

[John D]

Gravity just forget about the front of Jeep? I don't see anything to launch off of, so just looks like a wheelie... in the sand...

What'd you do for your shifter/cable and rad? Looks like you ended up with an aftermarket OE fit XJ rad with some fans?
I'm looking at this right now: http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/gri-cu-28222-ts/overview/
Rated to 425hp, passenger side inlet/outlet, auto-cooler fittings.
Any reason not to pull the trigger on this one?
EDIT: NVM. Way too wide. PS box in the way. Looks like I only have 20" wide, and 19" high, unless I stick with the XJ's stock 12" high, in which case I can go all the way to 31" wide, but all the XJ sizes are over a grand with fans.

Ha! I was coming out of a bowl, you just can't see it behind me. The radiator I used was made by BeCool and I got it from Summit for about $500. I don't see it on their website, but maybe give them a call. It has always worked well for me. As far as the fans, I bought the kit from Dirt Bound minus the shroud, made that myself.

 

[blistovmhz]

I ordered this: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/gri-cu-28182-ts
22x19x5.5, passenger inlet/outlet, 1.50x1.75, comes with fan/shroud/controller and has built in rad cooler. Good to 425HP. - $645 shipped. Can't complain too much about that. I'd rather have built something myself, but I've got so much other fab work to do and I really don't wanna be messing around with insufficient cooling while trying to make the motor go.
That 22" SHOULD (I'll just cross all my fingers and toes) fit between the passenger frame rail and the Dakota steering box. I measured 22.125" clearance. 19" height works out perfectly for the bottom of the cross member to the stock rad support, except where the CM bends up a bit at the frame rail. I'll just chop out the one corner though as my bumper is doing 20x the work that CM ever did.

 

[Hoooper]

The guys at BMC performance say a 5/16 feed line is good to 350 HP. I'd believe it.

at what pressure and with what pump? Using the stock xj pump, upgrading from 5/16 to -6an made a world of difference.

 

[blistovmhz]

Well, headers and mounts showed up.
One of the heads has a header bolt busted off. Looked up water jacket schematics and very carefully drilled out the old bolt (easy out wouldn't grab). Right into a water jacket. Given the angle I drilled at, I'm pretty sure the bolt was stuck in there because the previous owner had drilled it out, then the bolt rusted into the head. I think it'll be fine. Just use some RTV with the bolt.

I gotta say, I'm not impressed with Novak at all. Their hardware package with the mounts was missing heaps of stuff, and they clearly ran out of lock washers and bolts cause they're all mismatched.
The headers look all right, except for the mating surface that looks like it was cut off by a retard with a dull hack saw. There's absolutely no way they'll seal (and they're supposed to be installed without gaskets). I unno. Maybe they use a real soft metal on the face? Anyone know?
The passenger header also contacts the block at the bell housing. Whole thing may need to be bent out 1/4" to clear the block.
Also a bunch of weld spatter near the collectors. I'm a terrible welder and I'd have done a better job.

Also, after seeing where the mounts go, and how the headers are shaped, I'm confident I could've thrown together motor mounts myself in an hour or two and done at least as good a job as Novak's. The headers themselves look like a mismatched set of off the shelf Sanderson shorty block huggers. I'm goona see if I can't convince Sanderson to tell me which headers they are so I don't have to deal with Novak again.
I don't know why I always forget that everyone sucks . I do like the Novak frame side mounts, but that's about all.

 

[Hoooper]

well, they are just of the shelf Sanderson headers, so there is that. The price reflects that though as they are about the same price as either set of headers they came from.

My mount hardware package was a shit show also. It has come in handy since then though as it comes with lots of extra nuts and bolts which conveniently have fit other locations

 

[blistovmhz]

well, they are just of the shelf Sanderson headers, so there is that. The price reflects that though as they are about the same price as either set of headers they came from.

My mount hardware package was a shit show also. It has come in handy since then though as it comes with lots of extra nuts and bolts which conveniently have fit other locations

Did you have an issue with block/starter clearance on the passenger header?
I don't really know what the starter looks like for this, but I just don't see it fitting in there.