long arm vs stock length???

[Gilroyboyxj]

x2 !!!

Here is the problem as I see it. Long arm vs drop bracket will always be a debate. I prefer long arm because you can't argue with science. The drop brackets (even if braced) are basically increasing the load applied to the frame with a longer bracket. If you go drop brackets I would brace them from behind (like RE, RC and everyone else does) and also tie them together across the rig somehow.

Ya I agree it would be more reliable an less stress on the fram just runniing the LA but mines not a wheeler I won't need that super flexing an what not

 

[whooprunner]

Both Long Arms and Short Arms are being used in JeepSpeed. As Griffith has shown it's more about driver than anything else. I think if Griffith was running Long Arm's he'd still be winning championships.

Long arms buy you easier cycling during installation / setup, better geometry and more weight.

Short arms are more difficult to cycle initially due to geometry and binding, with more leverage acting on your frame/drop brackets (If you use them), yet they're lighter and still provide you the 10" of travel.

If done properly either will be competitive it just comes down to your preference.

 

[61scout80]

No proof of that. It's just that so many people have done it. The biggest thing you hear from LA guys after they install them is how nice it rides. I've wheeled with plenty of short arm and long arm rigs and they all do the same obstacles. As we've been saying for years, the angle of the arm is what makes a difference, the biggest benefit of the LA is the better angle. But, if you can get better arm angles another way then you have the same benefit of the LA, like with drop brackets.

Same with the thought that LA's give you better articulation, that's not true either. Articulation comes from spring rate, balance, and tuning....not arm length.

my statement was only my opinion on the subject. while I may not be able to explain it scientifically i can for sure say that i strongly prefer long arm setups for leisure trail riding and rock crawling. I have been in enough of both to form that opinion based on what i feel more comfortable with both riding in or driving. Sure, i bet i can get in a perfectly setup short arm jeep and be very impressed, but overall i have enjoyed long arms a lot more.


I'm still gathering parts for my recreational jeepspeed, but I do intend to use the long arm setup i have solely based off my passed experiences with trail riding and rock crawling. Hopefully i won't be let down.

 

[crazyjim]

Both Long Arms and Short Arms are being used in JeepSpeed. As Griffith has shown it's more about driver than anything else. I think if Griffith was running Long Arm's he'd still be winning championships.

Bingo. Short arms work great for 10" of travel, just as well as any long arm setup IMO. However once you start making bigger numbers (prerunners and 3700 guys) you start to face the issue of the path of the axle travel. You're going to have a tighter shorter arc with short arms than you would with long arms. More front to rear motion.

I'm a little worried about that right now actually with my coilover setup I'm building. I'm kicking myself for not going long arms before I did all my frame stiffening. For 12-14" of travel, on a short arm setup, the front axle is going to change forward and backward direction quite a bit through it's travel.

 

[Ryan93]

very good info guys! I really like hearing everyones opinions on the matter puts some sense into me haha

 

[dakineJ]

Another important point to consider,is 4-link vs. radius arms.The radius arms like Claytons,TNT, and RE are great for crawling and trailrigs. But for goin fast you want a 4-link long arm like Full Traction,RockKrawler,or PolyPerformance that will maintain your caster and pinion angle better.

 

[crazyjim]

Another important point to consider,is 4-link vs. radius arms.The radius arms like Claytons,TNT, and RE are great for crawling and trailrigs. But for goin fast you want a 4-link long arm like Full Traction,RockKrawler,or PolyPerformance that will maintain your caster and pinion angle better.

I would actually say that's backwards. While caster is important with the go fast, really important, you're not pulling ALL that much to change caster that much. And Pinion angle will stay the same throughout travel with a radius arm setup. So with straight droop both will work.

When flexing out, a radius arm setup with actually rip mounts of the axle, where as a true 4 link will not.

 

[Goatman]

Another important point to consider,is 4-link vs. radius arms.The radius arms like Claytons,TNT, and RE are great for crawling and trailrigs. But for goin fast you want a 4-link long arm like Full Traction,RockKrawler,or PolyPerformance that will maintain your caster and pinion angle better.

Ditto Jim's response, this comment has no basis whatsoever. In fact, most off the shelf LA kits are horrible for rockcrawling because they mount the arms on a new crossmember below the frame and sacrifice valuable ground clearance, in which case a short arm would crawl better. Dave Taylor's rock buggy with triple bypass King airshocks is a radius long arm, and it hauls ass in the desert.

 

[Ryan93]

so is a "y-link" type set up like the RE and TNT better than the Full Traction that isnt?

 

[dirtbagXJ2103]

no a true 4 link is best, just like stock, its actually a 5 link because of the track bar

 

[Loose_Nuts_Enterprises]

All a true 4 link is going to do for you is maintain caster throughout the travel. My theory on that is when the front wheels are off the ground or mainly un-weighted, who care what the caster angle is?? As your landing and the suspension is compressed, you'll have way more caster than a true 4-link, which will help you continue a straight line on hard landings better.
There is binding in a radius arm set up, but only when the axle is articulating. That's why there are the rubber bushings on the upper control arms, to accommodate for that. With RE's old bushings, we were wearing them out every race (200-300 miles) but with their "new and improved" post recall bushings, we did the entire Vegas to Reno race (1000 miles), and then ran the Powder Puff race, without changing them. We haven't torn the car down for prep yet, after the PP race, but there was no indication the bushings were bad. I'm thinking that the race punishment is going to be at least 10X the punishment of prerunning or wheeling.

The lesser arc of the LA setups will also help the bumps to stay closer to the center of the coil springs without rubbing suring the suspension travel...less fore and aft movement during travel.

All in all, they both can work well, if they are set up and tuned.
As far as rock crawling is concerned, I noticed absolutely no difference between short arms and long arms, but my control arms mounts were already moved for better angles.....Clear as Mud, yet??

-Dan

 

[Ryan93]

4-Link like stock > Radius arms that the jist of it?

 

[crazyjim]

4-Link like stock > Radius arms that the jist of it?

There's downsides to both. Read what Richard and Dan boh had to say.

A 4 link will keep caster, which will help if you're turning while drooped out etc, it won't cause your tire to roll sideways, but again with 10-12" of travel you're not going to have to worry too much about that.

A radius arm will help keep pinion angle which will be easier on the driveshaft and allow more droop actually. However for flexing it's hard on mounts.

 

[Ryan93]

Ahh ok got it, thanks!

 

[dakineJ]

My earlier comment was based on what others have said about articulation and binding. I totaly see what your saying and absalutely agree.I've just heard more favorable opinion's on 4-link for goin fast.Hopefully you would'nt have to turn while landing very often.

 

[Gilroyboyxj]

My earlier comment was based on what others have said about articulation and binding. I totaly see what your saying and absalutely agree.I've just heard more favorable opinion's on 4-link for goin fast.Hopefully you would'nt have to turn while landing very often.

Quick fix for the steering prob with 4 link is using the anti-rock sway bar system works great for go fast or crawling, budd has it on his wheeled out ranger an he gets a ridiculous amount of flex with it an it would work for go fast to

 

[srimes]

OK how about 3-links? Both proper 3-link and 3-link radius arm (not sure of the proper name).

 

[Goatman]

OK how about 3-links? Both proper 3-link and 3-link radius arm (not sure of the proper name).

Superior in all respects, if done properly. Both the XJ I built and the buggy I built have front 3 links. A radius arm is still a radius arm, you can build them with one or two upper arms. However, to keep on the topic of arm length, all th previuos comments still apply, except that a 3 link won't bind at all when articulating.

 

[crazyjim]

I wouldn't trust a 3 link for any hard hitting go fast stuff. I realize it was on your buggy as well, not knocking it, and yes it worked. However I still wouldn't trust a single upper.

 

[Goatman]

Many KOH cars have front 3 links, and some have rear 3 links. Shannon Cambell's winning car in 2008 did, same car came in 2nd in 2009, and Cassie Curries 2nd place car in 2008 had a 3 link. Many more. Just have to build it strong. Plus, there isn't that much force on the upper arm in a big hit, the upper arm takes the axle torque and other forces, but the lowers and panhard and shocks and bumps take the major force on a big hit. These cars are built with the lower arm even with the axle tube, taking the majority of the force.

I understand the concern, but we probably put a lot more stress on that upper arm in the rocks with 40" sticky tires and 300m axle components than it will see in the desert.