Kel-tec

[ECKSJAY]

This is true but one thing to consider....The even the best trained cops make very bad shots under fire.

This is because contrary to popular belief, cops aren't trained very well for dealing with gunfighting survival.

Ask anyone who has been in a firefight(no of course I haven't) Your logic and judgement goes to hell.

I have, and I disagree with the second part of your statement. The folks I know who have been in gunfights or have used deadly force stated the exact opposite. Being in a couple of escalated "shoot, don't shoot" scenarios myself, I agree from personal experience. Training dictates how one will react. It takes the body/mind 1000 repetitions of an act to make it reaction. I do more than that in one day of combat pistol training.

And a normal person that doesn't go through tons of combat training is going to be even worse in a situation.

So true. Also explains why cops mostly react the way they do: They're ordinary people as well. Again, I speak from personal experience. All the more reason to invest in yourself. Don't rely on your police department or your military unit to provide ALL of the knowledge you're going to need. Seek training from multiple sources and keep an open mind.

 

[DrMoab]

This is because contrary to popular belief, cops aren't trained very well for dealing with gunfighting survival.

I guess it would depend on the dept. My brother is a Patrol SGT. here. He is also the firearms instructor. I know this is one area where he really tries to make sure his patrolmen are very well trained.

I have, and I disagree with the second part of your statement. The folks I know who have been in gunfights or have used deadly force stated the exact opposite. Being in a couple of escalated "shoot, don't shoot" scenarios myself, I agree from personal experience. Training dictates how one will react. It takes the body/mind 1000 repetitions of an act to make it reaction. I do more than that in one day of combat pistol training.

Maybe I mis-stated what I was trying to say...Yes your body and mind reacts very fast. I guess the point I was trying to make goes along with the not being trained statement.
How many times have you seen the aftermath of a big firefight where say 100 rounds were fired and only 30 hit their mark.
When I got my Conceled permit the guy was telling me it's something like 12% actually hit their mark. I could be wrong on the exact number because its been a couple of years but I remember being amazed at how low the number was.

 

[ECKSJAY]

I guess it would depend on the dept. My brother is a Patrol SGT. here. He is also the firearms instructor. I know this is one area where he really tries to make sure his patrolmen are very well trained.

Kudos to your bro, more depts should do that.

Maybe I mis-stated what I was trying to say...Yes your body and mind reacts very fast. I guess the point I was trying to make goes along with the not being trained statement.
How many times have you seen the aftermath of a big firefight where say 100 rounds were fired and only 30 hit their mark.
When I got my Conceled permit the guy was telling me it's something like 12% actually hit their mark. I could be wrong on the exact number because its been a couple of years but I remember being amazed at how low the number was.

Yes, in a firefight your reaction increases your shot 'grouping'...which is why we train so hard to hit EXACTLY where we aim EVERY time. Untrained, undertrained, or poorly trained folks are downright scary in firefights.

 

[imma honky]

Well, heres the verdict. I did not want something full size or mid size, which is why the kel - tek came into play. My friend bought one, we put 250 rounds through it with only 2 jams (within the first 24 shots). So over all, it is a nice piece. I ended up getting a beretta Tomcat .32 I'm hopeign to get some shots through it this weekend. Nice peice, I really must say.

 

[Eagle]

Kel-Tecs are good guns. My gun shop sells a lot of them, and he wouldn't sell them if he didn't feel comfortable about them. Several police officers who buy there keep them as back-up guns (or maybe as thrown down guns, but you didn't hear that from me), and even more keep Kel-Tec folding carbines in the trunk of their POV as an off-duty "better than a pistol" weapon.

Another decent, low priced (and ugly) gun is Hi-Point. Not pretty, but cheap, and reliable.

 

[RichP]

Kel-Tecs are good guns. My gun shop sells a lot of them, and he wouldn't sell them if he didn't feel comfortable about them. Several police officers who buy there keep them as back-up guns (or maybe as thrown down guns, but you didn't hear that from me), and even more keep Kel-Tec folding carbines in the trunk of their POV as an off-duty "better than a pistol" weapon.

Another decent, low priced (and ugly) gun is Hi-Point. Not pretty, but cheap, and reliable.

I don't know, cheap and reliable bothers me in a defense weapon, kind of like buying a parachute by price.... maybe as a backup but not as a primary. But what you get is not always what you can afford...

 

[Eagle]

3. If you can run away -- RUN!

Depends on jursidiction. Not all states have a "duty to retreat" clause in their state laws on self-defense. Florida, for example, just passed a law removing the duty to retreat from the law book. The problem is, most of those laws require you to retreat if you can do so safely. In the moment of crisis, who has time to consider if it's "safe" to retreat?

I'm not saying you shouldn't exercise situational awareness and stay out of harm's way, but if you are accosted by a goblin, each state has different laws regarding "duty to retreat." Know what applies in YOUR state.

4. Display your gun, go to jail.

Again ... varies by state. No state allows you to "brandish" a firearm negligently, but some states are more strict than others regarding how strictly "concealed" is enforced. In Texas, people are paranoid about whether their gun can be seen. The term is "printing," and apparently in Texas even if the gun is completely covered, like with a tee shirt, if someone can discern from the shape that it's a gun you're still in trouble. Here in Connecticut, the permit is a pistol permit. Technically it allows concealed OR OPEN carry. The police would prefer that handguns be concealed, but if it "prints" or if the wind blows open your jacket for 15 nanoseconds so some twit can see that you're carrying a GUN ... no harm, no foul.

Again ... know the laws for where you are, and don't worry about someone else's laws.

 

[TUFFXJ]

Kel-Tecs are good guns. My gun shop sells a lot of them, and he wouldn't sell them if he didn't feel comfortable about them. Several police officers who buy there keep them as back-up guns (or maybe as thrown down guns, but you didn't hear that from me), and even more keep Kel-Tec folding carbines in the trunk of their POV as an off-duty "better than a pistol" weapon.

Another decent, low priced (and ugly) gun is Hi-Point. Not pretty, but cheap, and reliable.

I agree for the money they are great. I have had the P-11 and currently the P3AT. They do need a little fluff and buff to be a 100% performer but that 20 min work. I have carried Glocks, Karr, Kimber and a few other BIG names and still have a few. I will agree the "Pretty" factor is more on those brands but the Kel-Tec is designed for one reason CC and thats it. I have my P3AT as my ALWAYS gun in a Pocket/wallet holster by Guru Dave (http://www.pocketholsters.com/) and it is always there. Now a .380 is a minimum round for self defense I will agree but as they say a .22 in you hand is better than a .45 in the glove box. The perfect carry gun would be a .45 that is the size of this little kel-tec but that isn't happening any time soon. Do I carry others, Yah but this little .380 is so dame light I ALWAYS carry it and never am without it. Kel-tec is a good little company and a little known fact is they make parts for the Space Shuttle as well they are a CNC company and make firearms as a supplement.

Also as has been said TRAINING TRAINING TRAINING and IDPA is a GREAT way to get in the game. I shoot the matches with my little .380 all the time from the back pocket as I carry everyday. It always goes BANG what more could you ask for?

www.ktrange.com
www.ktog.org

Some great real world resources for these little guns

PS. Before anyone asks yes I do have my CCW

As to Arizona Gun laws we have some of the BEST

It is a Shall issue state for CCW and we have open carry for ANYONE, if under 18 you need a letter from you parents..

 

[ECKSJAY]

Depends on jursidiction. Not all states have a "duty to retreat" clause in their state laws on self-defense. Florida, for example, just passed a law removing the duty to retreat from the law book. The problem is, most of those laws require you to retreat if you can do so safely. In the moment of crisis, who has time to consider if it's "safe" to retreat?

I'm not saying you shouldn't exercise situational awareness and stay out of harm's way, but if you are accosted by a goblin, each state has different laws regarding "duty to retreat." Know what applies in YOUR state.

I think that while you read and understand the basics, you may have missed the point...which is simply put: If you don't have to use your gun to get out of danger, then don't. There's no indication of a 'duty to retreat' clause in bullet point 3.

Again ... varies by state. No state allows you to "brandish" a firearm negligently, but some states are more strict than others regarding how strictly "concealed" is enforced. In Texas, people are paranoid about whether their gun can be seen. The term is "printing," and apparently in Texas even if the gun is completely covered, like with a tee shirt, if someone can discern from the shape that it's a gun you're still in trouble. Here in Connecticut, the permit is a pistol permit. Technically it allows concealed OR OPEN carry. The police would prefer that handguns be concealed, but if it "prints" or if the wind blows open your jacket for 15 nanoseconds so some twit can see that you're carrying a GUN ... no harm, no foul.

Again ... know the laws for where you are, and don't worry about someone else's laws.

Again, same thing... He's not talking about concealment or brandishing. His point is that if you draw your weapon you should expect to be detained while the authorities conduct an investigation. Proper education can help virtually eliminate this possibility by teaching what can and can't be done legally. It's entirely possible to utilize your weapon in a self-defense situation and be sent along your way during a preliminary investigation.

 

[ECKSJAY]

and we have open carry for ANYONE

Except felons, right?

 

[AZ DESERT RAT]

Sig Sauer,Sig Sauer, Sig Sauer....nuff said!!

 

[Rev Den]

Well, heres the verdict. I did not want something full size or mid size, which is why the kel - tek came into play. My friend bought one, we put 250 rounds through it with only 2 jams (within the first 24 shots). So over all, it is a nice piece. I ended up getting a beretta Tomcat .32 I'm hopeign to get some shots through it this weekend. Nice peice, I really must say.

ONLY 2 jams in 250 rounds? Cheap ammo? I have had ZERO jams in over 1000 rounds on my Tomcat....good choice. I have been using my .32 for "travel" for 4 years now, I really like it.

Rev

 

[AZ DESERT RAT]

Well....2 jams in 250 rounds...let me say what everyone was hinting at, but didn't want to offend anyone, the Kel-Tec is garbage!!! I would rather be armed with a high quality .22 in the same price range. 1) While caliber is important, shot placement is #1. 2) The mere sight of a handgun will end 99% of confrontations. 3) For 350.00 bucks you can find a nice police trade in that was well maintained...
Just my thoughts......

 

[imma honky]

Sig Sauer,Sig Sauer, Sig Sauer....nuff said!!

SIG is damn nice, but a little out of my price range at the moment. I've been messin with the tomcat and I really like the way it feels and the weight seems perfect. Now I just need to get my license .

 

[AZ DESERT RAT]

I think the Tomcat would be an excellent choice!!!

 

[AZ DESERT RAT]

Sigs are bit expensive...but I've owned them for along time now, along with Glock,HK and others but I keep coming back to the Sigs...guns are like politics you'll never win...they're are die hard Glock fans that will never own anything but Glocks..fanatics!!!! To me Glock fans are like Raider fans!!! It all comes down to what you feel best carrying...

 

[brokexj]

My 226 is nice, my 23 better, my commander the best! (As as carry goes) The best advice I ever got concerning firearms was "Any is better than none, practice until it is second nature, and training is never done." FWIW

 

[ECKSJAY]

Sigs are bit expensive...but I've owned them for along time now, along with Glock,HK and others but I keep coming back to the Sigs...guns are like politics you'll never win...they're are die hard Glock fans that will never own anything but Glocks..fanatics!!!! To me Glock fans are like Raider fans!!! It all comes down to what you feel best carrying...

Yeah, I don't really understand the die-hards. I like Glocks a LOT, but not so much that I'll really trash talk something else...unless I have serious feelings against it. I've owned HKs and some friends have Kimbers and Sigs, but none of those concealed as well as my 23. Hell, if I were back on the beat again and had a choice it would be a fullsize HK USP in .40. Since we're not open carry in my state it's the Glock, for sure...only because I can't afford an HK P7 M13.

 

[TUFFXJ]

Except felons, right?

Of course and anyone with a Domestic conviction is Unlawful carry as well.

 

[ECKSJAY]

Of course and anyone with a Domestic conviction is Unlawful carry as well.

Yup.

Just pitchin' ya crap for the 'ANYONE' statement.

Wish I lived in AZ.