I know many don't want another war BUT.....Ira needed a thread to vent in

[ColoradoRaptor]

Re: I know many don't want another war BUT..

I like to imagine a world that one day finally come's to the full realization and complete understanding that we are one with one another. That is: in reality there is no country, no state, no religion, no political party, no race, no truth in useless pattern recognition in feeble attempts to rationalize our existence. Obviously for this to happen, our species has to actually grow in all facets of existence.

Someday maybe.

Many people would love to see a day as you describe but I fear it may only be a pleasant dream....

 

[DigJeepsBrah]

Re: I know many don't want another war BUT..

I continue to struggle with how the Muslim based religions can have such massive differences in the interpretation of their Quran. The followers of this faith can be the most peaceful, kind people....... and clearly among the most evil people on the planet. How is that? Why would any sane person believe that a diety exists who's purpose is to command it's believers to be so evil and hateful.

I have the same issue with Christianity.

Fundamentalists are nuts.

 

[Kittrell]

Re: I know many don't want another war BUT..

The only solution the west has is to eliminate the extremists with no concern for collateral damage.

How will that be accomplished, nuking entire regions with impunity? That is not a world I want to live in. You are never going to get them all, it just can't be done. The "no concern for collateral" is what continues to create more insurgents. It is really easy to recruit for your cause when the U.S. just wiped out half a village to get that one guy.

 

[Boostwerks.com]

Re: I know many don't want another war BUT..

Many people would love to see a day as you describe but I fear it may only be a pleasant dream....

As long as greed runs the world, it will always be a "dream". Although I would argue that killing in the name of mythical ideologies (insert any variation of religion) is the true dream at hand.

I'm sure our ancestors would love to tell us that we are in "heaven" in every moment of our existence.

 

[old_man]

Re: I know many don't want another war BUT..

First off, I have been called a cold hearted bastard and its probably true. For it to stop, I think you have to make it painful for the society in general for allowing the radical few to ruin it for everybody. With Israel, I think that if they can pinpoint where a rocket was launched from, they should give that area 24 hours to remove themselves and their property, and then Israel should level a three block radius from the launch point.

If you don't want your home destroyed, you take the initiative to make sure the radicals aren't allowed to in effect cause your home to be demolished. In other words, you police your neighborhood and protect your property. If anybody dies during the demolition, it is their own fault for not leaving. If they want to be martyrs, then so be it.

Pretty soon, the masses will quit supporting these idiots and start dealing with them.

 

[ColoradoRaptor]

Re: I know many don't want another war BUT..

First off, I have been called a cold hearted bastard and its probably true. For it to stop, I think you have to make it painful for the society in general for allowing the radical few to ruin it for everybody. With Israel, I think that if they can pinpoint where a rocket was launched from, they should give that area 24 hours to remove themselves and their property, and then Israel should level a three block radius from the launch point.

If you don't want your home destroyed, you take the initiative to make sure the radicals aren't allowed to in effect cause your home to be demolished. In other words, you police your neighborhood and protect your property. If anybody dies during the demolition, it is their own fault for not leaving. If they want to be martyrs, then so be it.

Pretty soon, the masses will quit supporting these idiots and start dealing with them.

Basicly what I was getting at. So that would make me a cold hearted bastard as well.... Oh well, better to be a living cold hearted bastard than a dead pacifist in my book.

 

[ColoradoRaptor]

Re: I know many don't want another war BUT..

As long as greed runs the world, it will always be a "dream". Although I would argue that killing in the name of mythical ideologies (insert any variation of religion) is the true dream at hand.

I'm sure our ancestors would love to tell us that we are in "heaven" in every moment of our existence.

Greed is much harder to kill that a house full of cockroaches..... So yeah it will always be a pipe dream...

 

[ColoradoRaptor]

Re: I know many don't want another war BUT..

How will that be accomplished, nuking entire regions with impunity? That is not a world I want to live in. You are never going to get them all, it just can't be done. The "no concern for collateral" is what continues to create more insurgents. It is really easy to recruit for your cause when the U.S. just wiped out half a village to get that one guy.

It can be accomplished without the use of nukes. But yeah, you have to take the fight to them and if the innocent get in the way then tuff..... they will just have to learn how to get out of the way or police thier own!

 

[ColoradoRaptor]

I know there are those of you that would prefer to not say anything because opinions lead to arguments but I beg to differ. No argument here as opinions are as diverse as the population. Was just hoping that I was not the only headbagging hillbilly concerned about the welfare of this great country. What we need is a banding together of common ideals besides Cherokees and a good discussion of such. If we cannot come together here and discuss these things how the heck are we to come together when it really counts. I would love to live in an America where neighbors know oneanother and do more than just pass and wave on the road.... Maybe I am just dreaming :eye:

 

[RedHeep]

I think that the complex discussion that you want about the welfare of our country cannot be started with the statement "take the fight to them and if the innocent get in the way tuff."

Go to one of those countries and look at the people. They look just like the neighbors you want to get to know in your own country. I don't doubt that when they go home and they sit around their dinner table that they talk about our society, but rarely do they act on it, just as rarely as you do or don't.

 

[UnlimitedMatt]

I would have added my opinion, but my thoughts pass faster than I can type. This conversation, I believe, is better to have around a campfire and a 'few' beverages. I'm thinking Colorado Fest.

 

[Fred]

True, but here is a good article to read about ISIS, long but VERY informative. I think everyone should read it.

http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2015/02/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

 

[ColoradoRaptor]

I think that the complex discussion that you want about the welfare of our country cannot be started with the statement "take the fight to them and if the innocent get in the way tuff."

Go to one of those countries and look at the people. They look just like the neighbors you want to get to know in your own country. I don't doubt that when they go home and they sit around their dinner table that they talk about our society, but rarely do they act on it, just as rarely as you do or don't.

You have a valid point. I will say that I have been to their country and seen how they live. I have also sat at their table as a guest and enjoyed food with them. This how ever does not change my view on how to handle those that would rather cut my head off than enjoy a meal as friend...

 

[ColoradoRaptor]

So I just noticed how the header of my thread became longer...... I wonder if the blame belongs to some short Texan hanging out here in Colorado.. :greensmok

 

[ColoradoRaptor]

I would have added my opinion, but my thoughts pass faster than I can type. This conversation, I believe, is better to have around a campfire and a 'few' beverages. I'm thinking Colorado Fest.

Yeah, that would be great but I may not make that camp fire this year. I would like to make atleast one run and maybe a camp fire tale or two...

 

[xj-grin]

My last 2 cents, Ira -- I understand your frustration, and I understand that what are perceived by the civilized as "evil" doctrines and religions exist today, just as they have for recorded memory. You cite the crusades as example of what works, and advocate a take-no-prisoners-collateral-damage-be-damned-kill-them-all-let-god-sort-them-out approach.

Understand that those "evil" folks on the other side see things exactly the same way you do, but reversed. They believe that the "infidels" are evil, that the bulk of us remain somewhat innocent of the evil deeds of the few, but if our women and children get in the way, well to f'n bad... Allah will sort it out. We of course refer to this approach as "terrorism" when it comes from their side, but it is somehow more noble when we do it.

This tit-for-tat has indeed gone on between the east and west since the crusades, with rising and falling of each side, and the moving of the boundaries between the victors. It's continuance in the nuclear age should scare us all, whether we live in a mansion or a tent. Someone, perhaps those less vested in dogma, must put a stop to the continued back and forth, or it will stop with the death of us all -- and I guess then they win and get their virgins in paradise, huh?

I'm not a christian, but I think religious texts sometimes provide great moral value, and when Jesus advocated the turning of the other cheek, as opposed to the old-testament method of an eye for an eye, I think this is what he had in mind. Someone has to blink, and that doesn't make them a pacifist or a pussy, it makes him the one willing to stop the carnage for the betterment of all. Again, if they wish to bring their religious battle to us, here, they can find that isolationism and pacifism are not the same -- step into my house uninvited after midnight and find out how my hippie-ass feels about it. But continuing to bring the violence to them, with the inevitable collateral damage, just perpetuates the problem, just as it ever was.

 

[ColoradoRaptor]

My last 2 cents, Ira -- I understand your frustration, and I understand that what are perceived by the civilized as "evil" doctrines and religions exist today, just as they have for recorded memory. You cite the crusades as example of what works, and advocate a take-no-prisoners-collateral-damage-be-damned-kill-them-all-let-god-sort-them-out approach.

Understand that those "evil" folks on the other side see things exactly the same way you do, but reversed. They believe that the "infidels" are evil, that the bulk of us remain somewhat innocent of the evil deeds of the few, but if our women and children get in the way, well to f'n bad... Allah will sort it out. We of course refer to this approach as "terrorism" when it comes from their side, but it is somehow more noble when we do it.

This tit-for-tat has indeed gone on between the east and west since the crusades, with rising and falling of each side, and the moving of the boundaries between the victors. It's continuance in the nuclear age should scare us all, whether we live in a mansion or a tent. Someone, perhaps those less vested in dogma, must put a stop to the continued back and forth, or it will stop with the death of us all -- and I guess then they win and get their virgins in paradise, huh?

I'm not a christian, but I think religious texts sometimes provide great moral value, and when Jesus advocated the turning of the other cheek, as opposed to the old-testament method of an eye for an eye, I think this is what he had in mind. Someone has to blink, and that doesn't make them a pacifist or a pussy, it makes him the one willing to stop the carnage for the betterment of all. Again, if they wish to bring their religious battle to us, here, they can find that isolationism and pacifism are not the same -- step into my house uninvited after midnight and find out how my hippie-ass feels about it. But continuing to bring the violence to them, with the inevitable collateral damage, just perpetuates the problem, just as it ever was.

You know I respect your point of view as many have it! I cannot nor will not project my view point a absolute either. I am not here to argue as was promised. I can only say what I have come to believe is from seeing the world from a unique vantage point. The world we know came to be at the point of the sword not the point of the pen. Evil has existed from day one and the only way to control is to destroy it when it rears it's ugly head. I would rather we humans just got along and enjoyed what this planet has to offer. But that is just a nice dream for those that can't see the world for what it is. Our own country is falling apart at the seams and we blindly allow it. For example, the Colorado school system filed sexual harrasment charges on a gradeschool boy for kissing a girl on the cheek yet the same system blindly ignores brutal bullying that lands a gradeschool girl in the hospital with near fatal injuries. I fail to see how our countries politicaly correct system is working to promote this peace and love that we all want. It would seem as though when the cheek is turned you get attacked with a gun or knife. This thing we call "Terrorism" is in our neighborhoods already because our country is to politically correct to destroy it. Our country united together to rid the world of Hitler and his Nazi wacko machine and the world sings praises for it. Yet another wacko killing maching known as Islamic State is getting away with the same kind of crap the Nazi's did. This ISIL cannot be disreguarded or allowed to continue it's genocide of everything nonIslam.... To rid the world of this kind of evil you must take up the sword and draw blood. I will end here with this. I know people don't want to talk about these kind of things and I respect those that dont care to talk about it. And a quote. "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke"

 

[WB9YZU]

We are certainly not the society of 1941, that is for certain.

We believe in Freedom. Perhaps, too much freedom. There is no freedom without responsibility, and today, responsibility is a bad word. Everyone expects that their own special "Right" be accommodated by everyone else.
The idea that by exercising your "Right", you may be trampling on someone else's is a foreign concept. One that extremists look to exploit.

I really dislike what ""ISIL"" is doing. They are 20X worse than the Taliban, but are cut from the same basic cloth. They deny basic human rights, all in the name of a religion that claims to honor God.

So if Christians, Jews, and Muslims all worship God (The big "G"), and we are all made in his image, and all have the same laws handed down from high...
Isn't this all really about one group of people wanting to enslave another, and not actually divided along religious lines? Sort of like the war in Ireland which was posted in the media as Protestant VS Catholic, but it was actually the Irish VS the British occupiers.

So instead of looking at this as from one religion vs another, shouldn't we be looking at this from the stand point of Extremists vs Society as a whole?
Propaganda wins hearts and minds, and is cheaper than bullets as a preventive shot in the arm. Then we hammer the nails that stick too far up.
Our liberal Society would need to have a serious paradigm shift for that to work

 

[ColoradoRaptor]

We are certainly not the society of 1941, that is for certain.

We believe in Freedom. Perhaps, too much freedom. There is no freedom without responsibility, and today, responsibility is a bad word. Everyone expects that their own special "Right" be accommodated by everyone else.
The idea that by exercising your "Right", you may be trampling on someone else's is a foreign concept. One that extremists look to exploit.

I really dislike what ""ISIL"" is doing. They are 20X worse than the Taliban, but are cut from the same basic cloth. They deny basic human rights, all in the name of a religion that claims to honor God.

So if Christians, Jews, and Muslims all worship God (The big "G"), and we are all made in his image, and all have the same laws handed down from high...
Isn't this all really about one group of people wanting to enslave another, and not actually divided along religious lines? Sort of like the war in Ireland which was posted in the media as Protestant VS Catholic, but it was actually the Irish VS the British occupiers.

So instead of looking at this as from one religion vs another, shouldn't we be looking at this from the stand point of Extremists vs Society as a whole?
Propaganda wins hearts and minds, and is cheaper than bullets as a preventive shot in the arm. Then we hammer the nails that stick too far up.
Our liberal Society would need to have a serious paradigm shift for that to work

Very well said! I agree that many battles are fought with the religious flag held high. Yet that is only the motivation for the senseless acts committed under it. In truth all bloodshed has been over dirt and what's contained within it and or a way of life. We humans will always find reasons to fight with one another! And peace is only achieved through war and that peace achieved is never lasting.

 

[DutchVDub]

Sorry, I haven't read through all of this but did Ira really say the crusades were a good idea? I'm pretty sure the Crusades made Vietnam look like an overnight success.

That's all I've got. Personally I would have no problem going back to the Middle East, but I really think ISIL is their own worst enemy. They have been committing more and more atrocious acts and to a wide variety of targets. Their actions seem to be doing what nobody else has been able to do since the Babylonian era, unite the entire Middle East for a common goal. Unfortunately for them that goal is the eradication of ISIL.

Of course I also think they changed their name to ISIL because they were afraid Sterling Archer would come after them for copyright infringement on ISIS. So yeah, that's how informed I am.